Protestants, who have been around awhile, question about the Virgin Mary

[sapamarogi]

I’m not sure I should respond. I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant background, so have been quite well acquainted with Catholicism over many years. I admire much about Catholicism, such as its outstanding work in healthcare, education and assisting the poor, but I can’t accept all the teachings of the Church, including some related to Mary.

Quickly summarized, I have yet to find confirmation of either the Immaculate Conception (defined in 1864) or Assumption of the Virgin Mary (defined in 1950). Basically, my position is that Mary is all but skipped over in the Gospels between the Nativity and the Crucifixion. The three exceptions cause me to wonder. 

 1. Jesus in the temple. How could Mary and Joseph go a day's travel back toward Nazareth and not be aware that Jesus is not among them? And why would they have to searched three days before finding Jesus when they had come initially to go to the temple? And why were his parents scolding Jesus when they knew he was the Son of God? Many problems with that story.

 2. John 2:4. Jesus seems dismissive of Mary. "Woman, why do you involve me?" etc. 

 3. Matthew 12:46-50. Again, Jesus seems dismissive of Mary. Who is my mother? Etc.

 Also, I find it curious that in all the epistles to the early Christians, Mary is not mentioned once. If veneration of Mary were important in the early Church, why wasn't she at least mentioned? One is inclined to think that maybe Mariology developed later, partly because of the rival pagan culture where female goddesses were important. Much about her seems to have come from non-canonical works considered insufficiently authoritative to be included in the New Testament. 

  We could go on, but enough said. Christians certainly should honor Mary, but one has to ask if the Church may have gone too far in elevating her. I often wonder if Mary resents this, but I don't know.

It is man who elevates people and puts them on pedestals. God is God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Mary is not a god and she is a saint like the rest of us who have received and believed in Him but she was chosen for this special purpose just as we all have purposes to serve God. She was not perfect nor was she a perpetual virgin since it says in scripture that Joseph knew her after she had Jesus and Jesus had other brothers and sisters.

   God bless everybody, and may the joy of Easter stay with us all always.

 

[brumano]

I’m not sure I should respond. I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant background, so have been quite well acquainted with Catholicism over many years. I admire much about Catholicism, such as its outstanding work in healthcare, education and assisting the poor, but I can’t accept all the teachings of the Church, including some related to Mary.

Quickly summarized, I have yet to find confirmation of either the Immaculate Conception (defined in 1864) or Assumption of the Virgin Mary (defined in 1950). Basically, my position is that Mary is all but skipped over in the Gospels between the Nativity and the Crucifixion. The three exceptions cause me to wonder.

Although not defined as Sacred Doctrine until the 19th Century, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was contemplated by the church and believed in by many who were not at all ever forbidden or discouraged from holding it individually or as subgroups to be true; there was no controverting Sacred Doctrine that would have been necessarily constructed that would have banned the doctrine as heretical or unworthy of belief. In fact most of the earlier saints, St Jerome, St John the Evangelist come immediately to mind, had very active and wonderful devotions to Mary that had a dimension that was well beyond ordinary esteem; St John had her as his own Mother. The fact that absolute definition did not come until much later shows wisdom and self restraint on the part of the hierarchy so as to be certain in proclaiming the Immaculate Conception that the confirming and supporting evidence from Divine Revealation would be accumulated with time, which it was. This is simply the Church’s adherence to it’s own rule that has always been in use in testing doctrinal postulates, it’s the level headed sensibility recommended by Gamaliel in Acts 5v38,39… if it is not from God nothing will come of it, if it is from God you will not be able to stop it or haply you fight against the will of God.

 

[adrift]

That said, despite the verses in the posts above, I would take the view of the Orthodox regarding Mary’s sinless nature, she became sinless when she agreed to have Jesus. To have her as sinless since birth makes her not fully human and removes her agency to agree or disagree to bear Jesus and dims the grace bestowed upon her when she says yes. I also have trouble with the “ever-virgin” idea.

Then do you believe Jeus is not fully human? Adam and Eve were at first sinless yet that did not stope them from comitting sin so how would being sinless stop Mary from having a choice. That is essentially what you are saying. Because Mary is sinless does not make her a robot. All you have to do is look at the marriage of Cana. She didn’t take Jesus no did she?

 

[Patavium]

We must remember he was a Catholic at first and his "break’ with some of her teachings is monumental. But he was not free in all truth. For instance he also kept his contmporary /catholic thoughts on Jews, calling them “dogs”, fit to be racked/burned or something .Yes , like the twelve incredibly carnal,coniving sons of Jacob(?) God found it fit to grace them with saving faith and much illumination in a darkened world, forming our foundation of faith ( “salvation is of the Jews”).

Are you trying to say the Catholic Church viewed Jews as dogs???, and that Martin Luther cannot be trusted even though he started Protestanism? If you can’t trust your “forefathers” then why protest?

 

[david_ruiz]

Are you trying to say the Catholic Church viewed Jews as dogs???

 

[brumano]

The Queen Mother in the Kingdom established by David was Bathsheba, who David essentially raped and then had her husband, Uriah, killed in battle. Bathsheba became the Queen Mother of Solomon, who had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

 I wonder if introducing this Queen Mother image to somehow prefigure Mary is a good idea.

Those who would depreciate Mary Queen and Mother would come up empty handed again, because the defection of the earthly Queen Mothers leaves a special place for the truly honorable and glorious Queen Mother to fill up when her time arrives. This is a simile with King David and the future King of Kings who comes from his line when His time comes, so I think introducing the Queen Mother image to somehow prefigure Mary is a good idea, as long it is properly explained.

 

[packermann]

,She indeed was a key figure in opening the door to our cage ,to set us free. We “protest” because once that door was open, and we were free, the Catholic Church,and the emperor tried to put us back in the cage. Contrary to popular opinion, we did not protest while in the cage. We only protested when our newly found freedom to worship per our conviction was to be taken away. This is according to my humble opinion of actual history of the 1500’s.

 

[packermann]

, Are they dependent on the character and traits and quirks of the bird that opened the door ? He is remembered for what he did primarily. He opened the door. Do you only trust those who are perfect ?

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;9335147:

This same argument was made by the Enlightenment and the modern-day atheists. Once you make freedom the rallying cry, there is no stopping it. First the cage was the Catholic Church. The Reformation freed people from that. Then the cage was the Bible. The Enlightenment freed people from that. Then the cage was broadened to include all of Christianity. Richard Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens are rallying us away from that!
But this is not the freedom that Jesus and His apostles were talking about. Freedom is not being able to do whatever you want. Freedom is to serve God. Our real bondage is bondage to sin. True freedom is found in humble obedience.

Howdy. This is guilt by association. People have become atheists forever, form all backgrounds , from all baptisms (Catholic included). Indeed we are to be in a cage , we are even to be slaves, of Christ .The cage must be of truth and spirit. Yes we are to serve God , but in spirit and truth. The truth will set us free (to serve Him in the proper cage ). You will notice I originally wrote ,“to worship per our conviction” This conviction is dependent on our relationship with God ,as it has since the Garden of Eden. We must be obedient to His conviction .If that is to be a Catholic, so be it. If that is to be a Protestant, so be it .Yes truth is absolute and He wishes all united with the same conviction .BUT, if we are not united, it is not the fault of His process of individual, divine illumination. Unity at the cost of this process is being a slave to “unity”. Christ did promise division, between mother and son and brother …again this division over truth has been since the beginning at the Garden…thanks

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;9335147:

You are contradicting the exact teachings of Jesus. Jesus Himself taught that we can know who are the false prophets by observing the lives they lead.15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Not so sure if that is the correct interpretation of “fruit”. A prophet was judged by his prophecy ,and if it came true, not by their own righteousness. Again ,David did some bad things , as did Abraham and his descendants. The fact is ,some very good fruit came from protestantism/luther. The german people began reading german bibles,understanding/knowing scripture .The counter reformation corrected many ills of the CC.Ignatius L demanded the best from clergy ,helped the poor ,stressed service to the community and education,putting some protestants to shame and winning back many to the CC. Many souls have been birthed by both “churches” And as one suggested to apply Gamileo(?) argument ,if it is of God ,it will remain,flourish,as protestantism has.
Thanks

 

[Patavium]

david ruiz,

Protestants protest because that’s what they do. Protestants protested the RCC, and now they protest each other. You are an example. You are protesting against the “forefathers” of Christian Protestantism. That’s why Protestants are fractioned into several groups with lack of unity.

Also with regard to Mary. You are reducing her role greatly by considering her similar to others. Tell me, Who has the honor to bring Jesus through the Holy Spirit into the flesh. She was chosen for this role despite generations of the past, and generations to come, which is why she will be known as BLESSED.

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 1:48[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[septimine]

No problem with Mary, but I think there are some catholics more devoted to Mary & saints than worshipful of Jesus. Not that asking Mary to pray for you is bad, but when you’re praying to Mary and asking Mary to do something, it just doesn’t seem right, asking Mary to ask Jesus is fine, I see evidence in scripture. But it all comes from Jesus, not a saint.

 

[GaryTaylor]

No problem with Mary, but I think there are some catholics more devoted to Mary & saints than worshipful of Jesus. Not that asking Mary to pray for you is bad, but when you’re praying to Mary and asking Mary to do something, it just doesn’t seem right, asking Mary to ask Jesus is fine, I see evidence in scripture. But it all comes from Jesus, not a saint.

Worship=God.

Here…

google.com/url?q=http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05188b.htm&sa=U&ei=FMfAT62QN6u16AG5gdGcCg&ved=0CBcQFjAB&sig2=OeGrPNWwM-Tv4GzKBc1zYQ&usg=AFQjCNFepwxINorvIp1PSZtXpfRogC72hA

 

[packermann]

packermann;9337933:

david ruiz;9335147:

Not so sure if that is the correct interpretation of “fruit”. A prophet was judged by his prophecy ,and if it came true, not by their own righteousness. Again ,David did some bad things , as did Abraham and his descendants. The fact is ,some very good fruit came from protestantism/luther. The german people began reading german bibles,understanding/knowing scripture .The counter reformation corrected many ills of the CC.Ignatius L demanded the best from clergy ,helped the poor ,stressed service to the community and education,putting some protestants to shame and winning back many to the CC. Many souls have been birthed by both “churches” And as one suggested to apply Gamileo(?) argument ,if it is of God ,it will remain,flourish,as protestantism has.
Thanks

First, the primary function of an OT prophet was not to predict the future. It was speak for God. It was more forthtelling, not foretelling.

Second, the fruit is talked throughout the Bible as moral, spiritual fruit not the fulfillment of predictions. The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, etc.

I even if the fruit was fulfillment of prophecy, Luther would still be false prophet.The Catholics at that time warned Luther that is each person just read the Bible for himself, we would have thousands of different interpretation of the Bible, and Christianity would be splintered. Luther argued that the Bible was easy enough to understand that even a ploughboy could understand it. So everyone would interpret the Bible the same way.Well, Luther turned out to be wrong. With thousands of different denominations, most saying that their beliefs are based on the Bible. So Luther would still be a false prophet.

 

[packermann]

packermann;9337886:

Howdy. This is guilt by association.

It is not that that I am accusing Protestants and atheists belong to the same club. I am saying that if we start with the the big thing that we must not be caged and must have the freedom do do what we want, then the atheists win the battle, because they offer the ultimate freedom, if freedom is defined as being able to do whateve we want.

People have become atheists forever, form all backgrounds , from all baptisms (Catholic included). Indeed we are to be in a cage , we are even to be slaves, of Christ .

Not true. Atheism existed before Christ (Lucretius and Epicurus), but was actually almost non-existent during the heyday of Catholic Christianity (500 to 1500 AD). The Reformation said that we do not need the Church to find the truth in the Bible. The Enlightenment took it to the next logical step. We do not need the Bible to find the truth. Post-modern man now even questions the existence of objective truth.

The cage must be of truth and spirit. Yes we are to serve God , but in spirit and truth. The truth will set us free (to serve Him in the proper cage ). You will notice I originally wrote ,“to worship per our conviction” This conviction is dependent on our relationship with God ,as it has since the Garden of Eden. We must be obedient to His conviction .If that is to be a Catholic, so be it. If that is to be a Protestant, so be it .Yes truth is absolute and He wishes all united with the same conviction .

Wait a minute! Did you not previously write that the Catholic Church caged us in? So if that is the case, how can it be OK? How can a cage be OK for anybody?

This seems to me to be relativism. If we are each allowed to worphip per our conviction then there is no absolute truth. The what is true for you is not true for me. We would not be worhipping God in spirit and truth, since truth is relative to what is true for each person. We would be worshipping God in spirit.

BUT, if we are not united, it is not the fault of His process of individual, divine illumination. Unity at the cost of this process is being a slave to “unity”. Christ did promise division, between mother and son and brother …again this division over truth has been since the beginning at the Garden…thanks

Christ’s division was not between Christians, but between Christian and non-Christians. Christ prayed to the Father that we all be one as the Father and He are one.

I am not saying that we should maintain unity at the cost of the truth. But if we think we found the truth and that truth splinters Christians, that could be evidence that this way of thinking is not from God. And that is what happened with the Reformation - it splintered Christianity - not just Protestant from Catholic, but Protestant against Protestant. The Lutherans were against the Calivinists, they are both against the Zwinglians. And they all were against the Anabaptist. These divisions did not exist before the Reformation among Christians. Except for the division of East and West, Christendom was united.

 

[packermann]

David,

You mentioned that you can “trust” in Mary without her being sinless. I fully agree. Both Catholics and Protestants would agree that she IS NOW sinless, since she is now in heaven with the other saints in heaven. I do not need to believe that Mary was in the past sinless for me to “trust” her now.

That is not why Mary’s sinlessness when she lived on earth is so dear to me. Once I understood the doctrine, I had a greater awe of the holiness of God.

God is holy. He cannot sin and He cannot stand the presence of sin. It was therefore fitting that He would prepare a pure vessel that would hold Him for nine months of pregnancy. How could Jesus have tolerated to be in the womb of a sinful woman? In the OT, Moses took off his shoes in the presence of God at the burning tree, for it was holy ground. God commanded Moses to make the Ark of Covenant to be beautiful. I had to be pure holy, for it contained the words of God. God commanded Solomon to make the Temple, where God’s presence would be there in a special way. The Temple was holy. How much more fitting would it be the woman who bore God be holy and pure?

 

[packermann]

David,

You also mention that the Catholic teaching on the sacraments makes the sinlessness of Mary impossible, since Mary then would have been sanctified without the sacraments.

But this argument is based on a common misunderstanding of Catholic teaching – that God can only sanctify us through the sacraments. But that is not what I found to be Catholic teaching. God is above the sacraments. God can and will sanctify individuals without the sacraments.
The sacraments are God’s normative way to sanctify us. But He can and has sanctify us without them. The Catholic Church has always taught that there are very holy people outside the Catholic Church – Protestant and even non-Christians. God is all merciful and all powerful. He will reach out to anyone who sincerely seeks Him.
This does not mean that we can deliberately and knowingly stay away from the sacraments. It is still God’s normative way. To the person who knows that God’s grace is in the sacraments, God requires that person to receive the sacraments in order to receive His grace.
So God is not obligated to make Mary holy only through the sacraments, especially since the sacraments were not established yet.

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz,

Protestants protest because that’s what they do.

 

[david_ruiz]

David,

You also mention that the Catholic teaching on the sacraments makes the sinlessness of Mary impossible, since Mary then would have been sanctified without the sacraments.

 

[hawkeye125646]

This is a Typology of Mary being the New Ark of the Covenant:

God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and then indwelled the Ark. The Ark became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Exodus 40:34-35] corrolates with God the Holy Spirit overshadowed and the indwelled Mary. At that time Mary’s womb became the dwelling place of the presence of God [Luke 1:35].

The Ark contained the Ten Commandments [the words of God in stone], a pot of manna, and Aaron’s rod that came back to life [Deuteronomy 10:3-5; Hebrews 9:4]. corrolates with The womb of the Virgin contained Jesus: the living Word of God enfleshed, the living bread from heaven, “the Branch” (Messianic title) who would die but come back to life [Luke 1:35].

The Ark traveled to the hill country of Judah to rest in the house of Obed-edom [2 Samuel 6:1-11] Corrolates with Mary traveled to the hill country of Judah (Judea) to the home of Elizabeth [Luke 1:39]

To find out more… Go to agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Virgin%20Mary%20as%20the%20Ark%20of%20the%20New%20Covenant.htm

Which shows the beauty that Jesus Christ, being true God and True Man Followed ALL of the Commandments, including honouring thy Mother and Father! May God bless you1