Protestants; why won't you be CATHOLIC!?

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Hello Estedbob, each and everyone one of the protesters of the Apostolic church,and the millions protesting each other in the thousands and thousands of different denominations,claim the Holy Spirit has given them each the gift of interpretation. How can that be? I suspect they are listening to some other spirit.:shrug:Carlan

We need to listen to the correct Spirit ourselves and know this is serious business we are doing in that those who get it wrong in arrogant denial of the truth will be lost. We really need to be sure we are right in our posts and also listen, God works through sinful vessels. All of us. Perhaps the teaching of the Church is being wrongly interpreted. Explaining the teaching means knowing the teaching, not just knowing “of the teaching”. In defending our own position we may miss out on what God is saying in the teaching of the Church and thus we won’t be giving a good enough explanation to “plant the seed” on “fertile soil”. How we plant is important too.

 

[LutheranDK]

As in I want Mary to have given birth to God in the flesh, but I also want her to be a sinful human like me. (As if that even makes sense)

It does, unless you have been indoctrinated to reject the very thought.
Secondly, it’s not about “wants”. It’s about truth.
(and if someone uses the fact that I used the word “truth” to start rambling again, I’m gonna scream…)

happilycatholic:

Oh, and I want Jesus to have had brothers and sisters

Again, it’s not about wants, it’s about what happened.
Whether or not Jesus was an only child or not is an Adiaphoron, from my point of view, but the ideas behind the RC insisting on him being an only child, is not.

and to have been married and have children.

Nonsense! Who, apart from far-fetched conspiracy theorists and bad authors who need to sell books, claim that? I don’t know of ANY Christian denomination, RC or any other, who says that Jesus was married and had children, and I dare you to show me one. Go ahead!

Why must we be so determined to humanize the Holy Spirit?

Why must some people lie about their fellow Christians, claiming that they believe Jesus was married and had kids, and act altogether arrogant?

 

[LutheranDK]

They went from “the Pope is infallible” to “I am infallible”

I know of no one who claims to be infallible, except for the Bishop of Rome, and those submitting to him (and no, I did not use “submitting” as a derogative term, so don’t try to change the subject!). Can you, without lying, tell me who does?

 

[estesbob]

It does, unless you have been indoctrinated to reject the very thought.
]

Who said this:

There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).

One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).

It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother … (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).

---

 

[estesbob]

I know of no one who claims to be infallible, except for the Bishop of Rome, and those submitting to him (and no, I did not use “submitting” as a derogative term, so don’t try to change the subject!). Can you, without lying, tell me who does?

Have you read this thread? Have you seen the multitude of posters who have said the spirit has guided them to know exactly what scripture means?

 

[GodIsGracious]

I know of no one who claims to be infallible, except for the Bishop of Rome, and those submitting to him (and no, I did not use “submitting” as a derogative term, so don’t try to change the subject!). Can you, without lying, tell me who does?

The pope is only infallible at certain times. I don’t remember the exact time and what it’s called. But he’s not always speaking infallibly.

And I don’t consider my submission to the Catholic church as being derogatory.

Also, without quoting a million different posts:

Just because YOU say that the Catholic Church is making a “claim,” it doesn’t make the claim by the Church false. You simply don’t believe it.

There ARE people, some of whom consider themselves Christian, who believe Christ had brothers and sisters. There are even some who believe he was married too. And since they believe he was married, they also believe he had children.

No, not all non-Catholic christians believe that, but some do.

 

[happilycatholic]

quote=LutheranDK;5479249]It does, unless you have been indoctrinated to reject the very thought.
Secondly, it’s not about “wants”. It’s about truth.
(and if someone uses the fact that I used the word “truth” to start rambling again, I’m gonna scream…)

I don’t think anyone believes in a ‘truth’ they don’t want to believe in.

Again, it’s not about wants, it’s about what happened.
Whether or not Jesus was an only child or not is an Adiaphoron, from my point of view, but the ideas behind the RC insisting on him being an only child, is not.

Okay, you are okay with Jesus being an only child as long as the Church doesn’t say so? Please clarify.

Nonsense! Who, apart from far-fetched conspiracy theorists and bad authors who need to sell books, claim that? I don’t know of ANY Christian denomination, RC or any other, who says that Jesus was married and had children, and I dare you to show me one. Go ahead!

Clam down, I was being sarcastic. I probably did go a little far, but I’m frustrated too. I was illustrating a point. Where does it end? Sorry.

Why must some people lie about their fellow Christians, claiming that they believe Jesus was married and had kids, and act altogether arrogant?

Awe, seriously. You think I’m arrogant? I’m the least arrogant person here. You’re just a little too used to abrasive folks.

I asked why do people want to humanize God and you call me arrogant oh, and accuse me of lying (notice I stopped short of saying you called me a lier because I’m not overly sensitive and in a bad mood like you are). I really enjoy your posts. I apologize for having hit a button.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Hm, first post, but i’ve been reading from these forums from time to time.
So I’m sort of sorry to pick on your post first to comment on,

This is reference link to what I am trying to say,
catholic-legate.com/articles/transubstantiation_explained.html

but, basically, the Catholic Church believes (see “catechism transubstantiation” in google) believes that the SUBSTANCE of the Eucharist changes, and not the molecules or physical properties of the actual bread.
I know that Protestants would believe that Christ is in you, and that you can feel the presence of Christ around you literally, which all refers to the fact that something normal in this world, a SUBSTANCE in this world has been literally changed. Regular things can change in SUBSTANCE and ESSENCE because God is not limited to anything.

Therefore, to believe in transubstantiation in quite consistent with Christianity beliefs. Though we cannot see an actual difference of “atmosphere” or “air” when the Holy Spirit is around, we can feel a thickness in the air, we can feel the chills throughout our body during worship and agree that there are been a REAL, SUBSTANCE change…

Does this make a little sense?

When I take communion, I don’t think that I’m just only repeating a spiritual ritual or remembrance act, but I really hope and believe in faith that I am letting Jesus permeate throughout my body and I feel so joyful that I am loved by God so much that I am able to digest him into my body. The closeness I feel during communion is not symbolic, I believe there has been a substance change and it’s in faith I believe this. Though the “physical properties” of the bread never really changed, I know the substance did, and THIS is what I believe the Catholic Church teaches on transubstantiation…

my two cents

Good first post. If you were writing the CCC, I would probably find transubstation more palatable.

I would prefer to leave it a mystery, but I like your explination.

 

[JesusforMadrid]

My wife is already Catholic and with three kids, if I were to become Catholic, who would teach them the Bible?

Just kidding.

Actually, it mostly comes down to Papal authority: I think the Early Church was conciliar, not quasi-monarchial.

Other issues are indulgences (even my wife has difficulties with this), treasury of merit, immaculate conception, Marian apparitions and purgatory. And infant baptism, although I am softening on this one.

Also, in terms of praxis, I don’t like cheap statues of the Theotokos and other saints; I much prefer ikons.

I should probably become Orthodox, just to keep my wife guessing and probably would if they would recite the Divine Liturgy in the local language.

Still, I love a whole lot of Catholics, starting with my wife and her family, and that also leads me to love her Church. I love also our local priest and consider him a friend.

 

[estesbob]

Also, in terms of praxis, I don’t like cheap statues of the Theotokos and other saints; I much prefer ikons.

.

Anyone who goes into a modern catholic Church knows we no longer worhip statues-now we worship banners!

 

[JesusforMadrid]

Anyone who goes into a modern catholic Church knows we no longer worhip statues-now we worship banners!

That was funny!

You should have seen the banners in the Lutheran Church of my youth. It nearly drove me from the faith.

God bless all banner-makers worldwide but I am sure there are other ways God can use your gifts.

 

[Carlan]

We need to listen to the correct Spirit ourselves and know this is serious business we are doing in that those who get it wrong in arrogant denial of the truth will be lost. We really need to be sure we are right in our posts and also listen, God works through sinful vessels. All of us. Perhaps the teaching of the Church is being wrongly interpreted. Explaining the teaching means knowing the teaching, not just knowing “of the teaching”. In defending our own position we may miss out on what God is saying in the teaching of the Church and thus we won’t be giving a good enough explanation to “plant the seed” on “fertile soil”. How we plant is important too.

Hello Earnest, I am sorry for losing my cool, really do abhor the dart throwing in forums of this kind but I am not in the same league as some apologists responding to these posts. you know my intolerance is not directed toward people, who because of some protesters 500year ago disobeyed and would not stay in the church to correct the wrong with-in her.todays Protestants cannot beblamed for their disobediance . I pray God Love us all and bring all into the unity of his Church, Jesus longs for it. My intolerance is toward those Catholics who leave the Church for whatever reason and turn their backs away from the Apostolic Church and become anit-catholic and heretics. I feel in the end,unless they change their bitter ways, they are in danger of losing it all. I know, I do need to pray about my intolerance.Carlan

 

[GodIsGracious]

My wife is already Catholic and with three kids, if I were to become Catholic, who would teach them the Bible?

During a homily, the priest asked the congregation what the first book in the bible was. No one answered. (I think we were just not into Q&A of the congregation at the time.) He asked again and when no one answered he said, “What? No one knows what the first book in the bible is? Do we have a Southern Baptist in the house that could help us out?” hehehe

That loosened up the congregation to where several people yelled out the answer. So I found your joke amusing myself.

Just kidding.

Actually, it mostly comes down to Papal authority: I think the Early Church was conciliar, not quasi-monarchial.

Other issues are indulgences (even my wife has difficulties with this), treasury of merit, immaculate conception, Marian apparitions and purgatory. And infant baptism, although I am softening on this one.

Also, in terms of praxis, I don’t like cheap statues of the Theotokos and other saints; I much prefer ikons.

I should probably become Orthodox, just to keep my wife guessing and probably would if they would recite the Divine Liturgy in the local language.

Still, I love a whole lot of Catholics, starting with my wife and her family, and that also leads me to love her Church. I love also our local priest and consider him a friend.

I can’t answer some of your questions, but I wanted to say I actually rather like my ahem inexpensive statue of Mary!

I don’t know about Orthodox, specifically, I’m still not clear on those terms. Do you mean Eastern Rite of Catholicism? I know that the universal catholic church, Catholic, has several different rites and churches who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

I am Latin Rite Catholic - Roman Catholic. I am dating an Eastern Rite man, Byzantine Catholic. We “switch” rites back and forth since we’re both in communion with Rome. That means sometimes we attend “my” Latin Rite Mass or we’ll attend “his” Eastern Rite Divine Liturgy. It’s so awesome that we can go back and forth like that. I really love the Divine Liturgy, but being a Latin Rite girl I do miss my “home” rite if I attend Divine Liturgy more often.

Check them both out. We’d love to have you home.

 

[distracted]

Jennifer,
“…*will not *be Catholic…” excludes the possibility in the future, which I won’t do.
So, if you ask why I am not currently Catholic, I would say doctrine:
1)Papal primacy (and infallibility)
2)The requirement of belief in transubstantiation
3)Finish the convergence on Doctrine of Justification, started by the JDDJ
4)Sacrifice of the mass
5)Purgatory
6) Preference for corporate reconciliation

Jon

do you believe the Word of God?

then what about John 6 (for Transubstantiation)?

(for starters)

 

[Wildkit]

Actually, it mostly comes down to Papal authority: I think the Early Church was conciliar, not quasi-monarchial.

Where can you direct me to your statement that the Early Church, or Middle, or whatever, that was conciliar and what draws one to that conclusion from history or tradition?

 

[authenticity]

As Catholics always say…“it’s tradition”…but it’s also in their doctrine:

"65. But while in the most Blessed Virgin the church has already reached that perfection whereby she exists without spot or wrinkle (cf. Eph. 5:27), the faithful still strive to conquer sin and increase in holiness. And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues.**

Devoutly meditating on her and contemplating her** in the light of the Word made man, the Church reverently penetrates more deeply into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her spouse.

Contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Incarnation and the spouse of the Church: Jesus Christ.

Having entered deeply into the history of salvation, Mary, in a way, unites in her person and re-echeos the most important doctrines of the Faith: and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her son, to his sacrifice and to the love of the Father.

When she is the subject, not the object, of preaching and worship. If at a Protestant service, the preacher talks about the prophet Jonah, Jonah is the subject. No one would think that the church suddenly started worshiping Jonah instead of Jesus. It is the same thing here. The only people confused about this are Protestants.

Seeking after the glory of Christ, the Church becomes more like her lofty type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. The Church, therefore, in her apostolic work too, rightly looks to her who gave birth to Christ, who was thus conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin, in order that through the church he could be born and increase in the hearts of the faithful. In her life the Virgin has been a model of that motherly love with which all who joined in the church’s apostolic mission for the regeneration of mankind should be animated"

From Vatican Collection Volume 1, Vatican Council II, The Conciliar and Post Conciliar documents. General Editor Austin Flannery, O.P. New revised edition 1992; Costello publishing company, Northport, New York. 1992 pages 420-421 (par. 65)

On the other hand…this is what Jesus said:

John 14:6
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Heb 12:2
2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Matt 4:10
10 Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’ ”

 

[distracted]

This life that I have found in Christ meets the needs of my soul. Catholism does not “speak to my condition”…“There is One, even Christ Jesus that can speak to thy condition” is the testimony George Fox relayed…and those of us who put that to the test have found it to be so…we know God “experimentally”…“experientially”.

That any “sacrament” could confer grace upon me through the hands of another is a foreign concept to me…life is holy sacrament already.

life is messed up because of sin… the only thing that fixes this problem is Christ… and He established only one Church and that Church has sacraments that confer grace… giving us power over the devil… over evil and sin… and its horrible consequences…

there was a book written about an exorcism… called Posession - a Lutheran minister tried to exorcise this young boy who was possessed… he couldn’t do it, called on the Ctholic priests who could… and did…

this is just one example of why we need the Catholic Church, the Church Christ himself established…

i never overcame sin to speak of until i went back to the Catholic Church… Now i have (or Jesus has through me) accomplished some things: been celibate for many years… am not even tempted to commit sins i used to commit… and am much much close to God… have more grace… than ever before…

I’ve been in non-Catholic churches… a lot of them… when i was outside the RCC… there is good there, but i never got power over sin there…

 

[Bill_Pick]

Let’s see what the answer should be. Well, first lets see who the Churches were started by. The Lutheran Church was started by Martin Luther. The Catholic Church was started by Jesus Christ. I will say no more

God Bless

The part about the Church is right on and I think Luther was going to try to get back to the CC.

 

[Publisher]

life is messed up because of sin… the only thing that fixes this problem is Christ… and He established only one Church and that Church has sacraments that confer grace… giving us power over the devil… over evil and sin… and its horrible consequences…

there was a book written about an exorcism… called Posession - a Lutheran minister tried to exorcise this young boy who was possessed… he couldn’t do it, called on the Ctholic priests who could… and did…

this is just one example of why we need the Catholic Church, the Church Christ himself established…

i never overcame sin to speak of until i went back to the Catholic Church… Now i have (or Jesus has through me) accomplished some things: been celibate for many years… am not even tempted to commit sins i used to commit… and am much much close to God… have more grace… than ever before…

I’ve been in non-Catholic churches… a lot of them… when i was outside the RCC… there is good there, but i never got power over sin there…

Then it would be a good thing for you to remain in your chosen faith tradition.

For me, I find the best expression of faith among Friends. I share in the Living Silence each First Day and sit in the Presence as He ministers through those whom he calls to offer vocal ministry.

We can both rejoice that we have found a faith tradition which offers us a place experience to the astounding grace of God.

 

[imjustme]

And where in this post does it show the Church instructing Catholics to worship Mary-or are to blindly accept you pesonal interpetation of the cathecism as we are your personal interpretation of Scripture?

I bolded the words from the Catholic Doctrine, not my interpretation! Do you even read anything someone writes before replying?

and when she is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her son