Protestants; why won't you be CATHOLIC!?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Benedict the Sixthteenth would have relied upon God to provide.

He’s still only one individual.​

Can you think of any trend or tendency in Church history that was changed by one individual ?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

We are not Protestant becasue we believe in the teachings of the apostles handed down from Christ, not the vein arrogance of Luther and the Billy Bob pastors that have a different theory on a corner of every block. It is what God thinks that counts not the invidual opnions of protestants.

With appropriate changes, that would be a possible reply to you ​

That is still not a reason to ascribe the convictions of Protestants to base motives, such as pride. That is not argument, but an evasion of argument. It does not prove anything. It merely ruffles people’s feathers.

People don’t know much about Protestantism, if they think Protestantism is all, or mainly, a religion of the sort of pastors you mention. Luther, Calvin, Bullinger, Whittingham, Witsius, & others too numerous to mention were very solid theologians. They are still read - but who reads Catholics such as Maldonado or Molina or à Lapide ? Only their fellow-countrymen, or those with a special interest in their Biblical scholarship or their doctrine. The Billy Bobs represent only one small stratum of Protestantism, even if they do get a lot of time “on air”.

 

[Sellers1]

This doesn’t bode well for you: From the Council of Trent:

ON THE MOST HOLY SACRAMENT OF THE EUCHARIST

CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

CANON lI.-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one denieth, that, in the venerable sacrament of the Eucharist, the whole Christ is contained under each [Page 83] species, and under every part of each species, when separated; let him be anathema.

CANON IV.-If any one saith, that, after the consecration is completed, the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ are not in the admirable sacrament of the Eucharist, but (are there) only during the use, whilst it is being taken, and not either before or after; and that, in the hosts, or consecrated particles, which are reserved or which remain after communion, the true Body of the Lord remaineth not; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, either that the principal fruit of the most holy Eucharist is the remission of sins, or, that other effects do not result therefrom; let him be anathema.

CANON VI.-If any one saith, that, in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, is not to be adored with the worship, even external of latria; and is, consequently, neither to be venerated with a special festive solemnity, nor to be solemnly borne about in processions, according to the laudable and universal rite and custom of holy church; or, is not to be proposed publicly to the people to be adored, and that the adorers thereof are idolators; let him be anathema.

The Council of Trent was nothing more than the Catholic church making a statement to condemn Protestants. There was nothing noteworthy about it.

 

[mbgumby28]

The Council of Trent was nothing more than the Catholic church making a statement to condemn Protestants. There was nothing noteworthy about it.

Most Protestants falsely believe the C of T was where the “Apocrypha” was added by the Church to the Bible.

 

[estesbob]

The Council of Trent was nothing more than the Catholic church making a statement to condemn Protestants. There was nothing noteworthy about it.

Martin Luthers 95 Theses were nothing more than than him making a statement to condemn Catholics There was nothing noteworthy about it

 

[estesbob]

Most Protestants falsely believe the C of T was where the “Apocrypha” was added by the Church to the Bible.

Correct but I suspect your comment will be lost on one who beleives there was nothing notewrothy about the Council of Trent. Sometimes the ignorance of Catholocism by Protestant’s who come here is staggering.

 

[Zundrah]

Correct but I suspect your comment will be lost on one who beleives there was nothing notewrothy about the Council of Trent. Sometimes the ignorance of Catholocism by Protestant’s who come here is staggering.

…estesbob, just calm down and take some time. People may have been hurt by past problems while they were at the church they complain about so often.

 

[Zundrah]

Correct but I suspect your comment will be lost on one who beleives there was nothing notewrothy about the Council of Trent. Sometimes the ignorance of Catholocism by Protestant’s who come here is staggering.

The reason I can’t become catholic is because I can’t believe in the Eucharist, but even Anglicans have fiath in that!

I am not ignorant too much about catholicism, but if I haven’t grasp the Eucharist then surely I am ignorant on something, right, if I really do intend on converting?

 

[estesbob]

The reason I can’t become catholic is because I can’t believe in the Eucharist, but even Anglicans have fiath in that!

I am not ignorant too much about catholicism, but if I haven’t grasp the Eucharist then surely I am ignorant on something, right, if I really do intend on converting?

My comment wasnt directed at you. It was directed at Sellers1 dimissal of the Council of Trent as not noteworthy.

You are approaching Catholicism the right way-through prayer, study and discerment. I am confident that the Lord will reveal to you true nature of the Eucharist which will result in you finally being able to follow Christ’s admonition in John:6

 

[Zundrah]

My comment wasnt directed at you. It was directed at Sellers1 dimissal of the Council of Trent as not noteworthy.

You are approaching Catholicism the right way-through prayer, study and discerment. I am confident that the Lord will reveal to you true nature of the Eucharist which will result in you finally being able to follow Christ’s admonition in John:6

You’ve given me a bit more hope now, I need to try harder and stop protesting.

 

[guanophore]

In this case it was Pre Christ and things were different then

Some things were different, but not the method of salvation. Men have always been saved by grace, through faith. This has not changed.

People who approached the throne of God in faith have always been pleasing to God, from the time of Cain and Abel until Zechariah and Elizabeth. I think you just invented this concept, not sure why.

I have seen about these and they have a different meaning than thought, I must look them up again.

The Apostles taught that we suffer from a tendency to sin. This is part of the effect of original sin. Throughout this lifetime, we will struggle against the “old man” or the sinful nature, lust of they eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. This does not mean we are incapable of loving and serving God. However, as much as we devote our whole heart (will) to him, there are always pockets of our soul that are in need of cleansing and obedience.

Actually Salvation is one time, Sanctification is a lifetime process.

This is one of the errors that comes out of the heretical thinking of the Reformation. On the contrary, the Apostles taught that salvation included justification, sanctification,a nd glorification. In that sense, salvation is something past, present, and future. We are justified in baptism, work out our salvation throughout this life, and look forward to the hope of heaven, at which time we will be perfected, and will know Him as we are known.

 

[guanophore]

Something like this is always used as an example but that’s not quite the whole story, when one is saved they have no desire to commit a grievous sin.

It is an extreme example. But the “no desire” concept is not consistent with what the Apsotles believed and taught, and is quite contrary to scripture.

Are you suggesting that saved persons always commit grieveous sins against their own desires?

The person desires to please God with their whole being and as Scripture say God replaces their heart

Basically what you are saying is that the Apostles were not saved, since they ran away from Him on the night of his passion.

Ezek. 36:26

and makes them a new creation.

2 Corinthians 5:17

So if someone had a murderous heart than they were never saved to begin with.

Well, historyb, your theology has been contaminated by the heresies of the Reformation. It is true that God gives us a new heart, and new Spirit. However, we still struggle against the “old man” or the “flesh” throughout this life, because we are prone to sin. There are elements of us that are till “fallen” and in need of healing. The new creation exists alongside the old, until we are purged for heaven.

 

[guanophore]

You are wrong. The standard exists in all churches. Catholics are no more united in doctrine than any Protestant church. The church says one thing in doctrine and the people do other things. It’s called being a fallible human. Protestants such as Anglicans have had time tested doctrines as does the Catholic church, but still people make the individual choice to either adhere or not. Same for all.

The difference is, Sellers, that the Catholic Church doctrine is not formed or standardized upon the behavior who are disobedient. The Catholic Doctrines are handed down by the Apsotles, not formed 1500 or + years after the fact.

Inasmuch as some Protestant groups have retained Catholic doctrine, yes, they are time tested doctrines. But they are that way in spite of the Reformation. To the extent that denominations depart from Apostolic doctrine, they do so by rejecting elements of the Catholic faith, some more, some less.
"guanophore:

Actually, it is a matter of Apostolic Doctrine. It is they who taught that the mysteries of the faith were to be sought from those who were ordained by themselves.

That’s a cookie cutter reply for a Catholic, seeing as you profess to be the only church (except for Orthodox Christians) to be Apostolically Succeeed

It is not cookie cutter at all. Those members of the Reformation who felt they needed to separate themselves form the Apostolic Succession did so with deliberation, and no small hostility.
"guanophore:

No, the Orthodox and Anglicans are all in agreement with us on this point. Neither of them are “bible based” churches, and have not fallen into the error of Sola Scriptura.

See above reply

What? Are you saying that we are “cookie cutter” because we are not “bible based”?

 

[guanophore]

Oh my, you are so cruel… :snowing:

anathema;

1. a person or thing detested or loathed: That subject is anathema to him.
2. a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.
3. a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication.
4. any imprecation of divine punishment.
5. a curse; execration.

This is what you believe in Earnest Bunbury? My methoist church would never detest anyone, even if they denied christ.

---

Those statements are directed toward Catholics - those that have been pursuaded that Jesus meant what He said “this is my Body, this is my Blood”.

I think you may be getting hung up on “understanding”. It is a mystery to us how Jesus can make Himself present to us and in us under the appearances of bread and wine. We choose to believe it because He said it, and we know Him in Whom we have believed. You will never be able to wrap your brain around such mysteries. Just accept it, and be obedient to Him. Understanding will come later (when we get to heaven, if not sooner)

The Council of Trent was nothing more than the Catholic church making a statement to condemn Protestants. There was nothing noteworthy about it.

Sellers, you are showing your shallow understanding of Councils in general, and Trent in particular.

The Catholic Church does not have the authority to “condemn” anyone. This is up to God. The Church has a duty to clarify Truth for the faithful, and to warn the faithful about shipwrecking their faith. These statements are made for the benefit of Catholics.

It is always noteworthy to defend the Truth.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Those statements are directed toward Catholics - those that have been pursuaded that Jesus meant what He said “this is my Body, this is my Blood”.

I think you may be getting hung up on “understanding”. It is a mystery to us how Jesus can make Himself present to us and in us under the appearances of bread and wine. We choose to believe it because He said it, and we know Him in Whom we have believed. You will never be able to wrap your brain around such mysteries. Just accept it, and be obedient to Him. Understanding will come later (when we get to heaven, if not sooner)

We believe it because it is the reality of what happens to the host. We choose not to believe it for many reasons, not understanding it because we don’t have the diligence to study it.

Sellers, you are showing your shallow understanding of Councils in general, and Trent in particular.

The Catholic Church does not have the authority to “condemn” anyone. This is up to God. The Church has a duty to clarify Truth for the faithful, and to warn the faithful about shipwrecking their faith. These statements are made for the benefit of Catholics.

It is always noteworthy to defend the Truth.

The truth is “He who hears you, hears Me”. The Church absolutely has the authority to anathematize that which is opposed to the doctrine of faith prescribed by the Bishop of Rome and those bishops in union with him. This includes people holding those views. This is a pronouncement of excommunication.

 

[Christ_Imitator]

Why should I be a Catholic? When some of the teaching is flawed.
Why won’t you Catholics convert to Protestantism?

1. What are some things that Protestants do that the Holy Bible says they shouldn’t?
2. What are some things Catholics do (that protestants don’t do) that the Holy Bible says they should?
3. Please give Biblical reference, thank-you.

 

[roselily]

Why should I be a Catholic? When some of the teaching is flawed.
Why won’t you Catholics convert to Protestantism?

1. What are some things that Protestants do that the Holy Bible says they shouldn’t?
2. What are some things Catholics do (that protestants don’t do) that the Holy Bible says they should?
3. Please give Biblical reference, thank-you.

Oh, Christ Imitator,
I will gave you we Catholic Christians pray Holy Rosary, that the Holy Rosary is all in the Holy Bible.

In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. And he came to her and said, ‘Greetings, favoured one! The Lord is with you.’
-Luke 1:26-28

Mary said to the angel,‘How can this be, since I am a virgin?’ The angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God
-Luke 1:34-35

In those days Mary set out and went with haste to a Judean town in the hill country, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
-Luke1:39-42

And why has this happened me, that the mother of my Lord should comes to me?
-Luke 1 ;1:43

And Mary said,
'My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices in God
my Saviour,
for he has looked with favour on
the lowliness of his servant.
Surely, from now on all generations will call me
blessed;
for the Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
His mercy is for those who fear him
from generation to generation.
-Luke 1:46-50

Our Father who art in Heaven,
hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come,
Thy will be done,
on earth, as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Amen

1. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women
   and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
   Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now
   and at the hour of our death. Amen

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be
world without end. Amen

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell.
Lead all souls to heaven, especially
those in most need
of thy mercy
.

Apostle’s Creed
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ,
His only Son Our Lord, Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Sprit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. Amen.

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
Our Life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve,
to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley of tears.
Turn then , most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy towards us
and after this, our exile,
show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary
Pray for us O holy Mother of God
that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

 

[Christ_Imitator]

I don’t recal seeing this in the Bible:

1. Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women
   and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
   Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now
   and at the hour of our death. Amen

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy,
Our Life, our sweetness and our hope.
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve,
to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping
in this valley of tears.
Turn then , most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy towards us
and after this, our exile,
show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Is this “Holy Rosary” something that is put together like the Apostle’s Creed. (Different parts of the Bible put togehter into one thing to recite?)
Are you sure that all the parts were meant to be put together into some sort of ritual and to be said several times over? The Rosary doesn’t save you, Jesus does.
He doesn’t say to recite anything, but to ask him to be you Lord & Savior, and to show you how to live your life for him.

One thing I want to say about the “Lord’s Prayer”.
I think that prayer is way overley used in the older protestant & catholic Churches.
Jesus stated that it was a model prayer not a special prayer that we need to recite often.
Also, I think people use it when it makes no sense to; I’ve seen it done.
Like for example when someone is in trouble, and they need God to help them, they use the “Lord’s Prayer”.
–Just saying I think it has become a ritual, and not something that we are truley asking God in our hearts. (Only speaking it with our mouths).

 

[Sellers1]

The difference is, Sellers, that the Catholic Church doctrine is not formed or standardized upon the behavior who are disobedient. The Catholic Doctrines are handed down by the Apsotles, not formed 1500 or + years after the fact.

This is false. Lutherans and Anglicans continued with the Early Church traditions and doctrines. The Reformation didn’t squash the sign of the cross, the Eucharist, the Communion of Saints etc. Sounds like you need some educating on what exactly the Reformation was.

Inasmuch as some Protestant groups have retained Catholic doctrine, yes, they are time tested doctrines. But they are that way in spite of the Reformation. To the extent that denominations depart from Apostolic doctrine, they do so by rejecting elements of the Catholic faith, some more, some less.

Oh no wait just a minute. That is false. Some of the mainline Protestants such as Anglicans did not do anything in spite of the Reformation. They retained those Apostolic teachings because they never departed from them nor did the Reformation sever them. Your understaning of the Reformation is flawed in so much as it did not deviate from Early Church teachings as later groups such as the Puritans did. In fact Archbishop Cranmer was ridiculed by the Puritans for remaining too Catholic after the Reformation in England.

It is not cookie cutter at all. Those members of the Reformation who felt they needed to separate themselves form the Apostolic Succession did so with deliberation, and no small hostility.

I don’t agree with that statement at all. See the above quote.

What? Are you saying that we are “cookie cutter” because we are not “bible based”?

No. ???

 

[guanophore]

We believe it because it is the reality of what happens to the host. We choose not to believe it for many reasons, not understanding it because we don’t have the diligence to study it.

I am not discouraging study, I am just pointing out that it is an ineffible mystery,and that understanding is not required to accept and obey. When Jesus told the disciples to eat His body, and drink His blood, they did not understand Him either. They accepted in faith that He had the words of Life, and that understanding would come.

The truth is “He who hears you, hears Me”. The Church absolutely has the authority to anathematize that which is opposed to the doctrine of faith prescribed by the Bishop of Rome and those bishops in union with him. This includes people holding those views. This is a pronouncement of excommunication.

Yes, of course. My point is that the statements were written by Catholics, for Catholics. Zundrah, who has never been exposed to the Apostolic Faith, should not be deterred by them.