Protestants; why won't you be CATHOLIC!?

[guanophore]

Read the Scripture and beg God for understanding; that would be a great start.

I think it is valuable to read scripture, but it is not necessary to “beg God for understanding”. He has given us already all that we need to understand. It is more appropriate to thank Him for the revelation that He has provided.

Such a statement is like saying “beg God to forgive your sins”. God has promised that, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive them. There is no need to “beg”. Begging for things God has already provided is a sign of not trusting Him.

This is a pretty typical response from a Catholic.

I find this a bigoted and condescending remark.

There is but one truth when God speaks through Scripture;

Well, this is a rather narrow minded view. There are many “senses” of scripture (layers)in which many truths can be found. Furthermore, how can you account for the fact that so many sincere Christians interpret scripture differently?

I wouldn't take any ones interpretation of Scripture; Io

This is the arrogance that fuels the fracturing of the Body. Rather than receiving from the Apostles what scripture means, each one reads it himself, and refuses to take instruction from those who wrote it.

I am like the Bereans to see if these things are true;

The problem is, Tanner, that the reason the Bereans were more noble is that they received the Apostolic preaching with joy and openness. This is the nobility you are lacking. Instead, you reject what was committed to the Church by the Apostles, and search the scriptures in separation from their preaching. THe result is that you end up with “truth” that is contrary to what they believed and taught.

 If you need to ask such a question; further evidence you do not understand what provisions God has given to each "true disciple".  Moreover it also shows that you do not believe God because you are not even willing to see for yourself what He has to say; how can you, you lean on someone else's understanding.  Isn't that why you and others put more emphasis on the "Church" than on Scripture?

No, Tanner, Catholics do not put more emphasis on Church than Scripture. They are equal, just as the Apostles taught. they are not to be separated from one another, as the Reformers did. Jesus gave His promise to the Church that He would lead her into all Truth, and that the gates of hell would not prevail. This promise does not extend to those who separate themselves from the Apostolic Teaching. Modern protestants have usurped this promise as applying to individuals, but it was given to the Church. The HS does not lead individuals in a different direction than He led the Church.

**What did the Early Church believe about the authority of Scripture? (sola Scriptura)

The Apostolic Fathers and the Apologists held to sola Scriptura

Irenaeus and Tertullian held to sola Scriptura
Cyril of Jerusalem held to sola Scriptura
Gregory of Nyssa held to sola Scriptura
The Early Church operated on basis of sola Scriptura

Customs and Practices as Apostolic Oral Tradition

christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-earlychurch.html**

No, Tanner. You are reading the FAthers just like you read Scripture. You are cherry picking out passages to support your theology. Of course the Fathers believed that scripture is authoiriative. However, none of these listed embraced the error of sola scriptura.

The final assertion in your list is patently absurd, since the NT was not canonized for almost 400 years! Furthermore, that NT scripture that was not available to the early church testifies that it was built upon the foundation of the Apostles and 'Prophets, not the scripture.

You are making excuses for rejecting the authority appointed by Christ.

 

[guanophore]

Hello,

I’m a fallen away catholic. My main reasons why I dislike the church, and all organized religion is that they close the mind to other ideas. I fell away from the church after discovering conflicts between my beliefs and the dogma of catholicism.

Welcome to CAF, glad you are here.

I think you will find that what closes the mind is the ego of the person, not any external force.

 

[guanophore]

** No Christian walks away from God for two reasons 1) they can’t and 2) they wouldn’t want to**

Such an assertion cannot be defended by Scripture, or from the Teaching of the Apostles. It is a reflection of the heresies of the reformation.

if this were true, then St. Paul would never have needed to write Rom. ch. 7, since there would be no part of him that would want anything other than Christ.

 

[guanophore]

You guys will say anything these days to try to get people to take you seriously.

The Roman Church has stated over and over again.Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus…see the quote below:

"The Catholic Church has solemnly defined three times by infallible declarations that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation. The most explicit and forceful of the three came from Pope Eugene IV, in the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441, who proclaimed ex cathedra: “The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

From this Link: olrl.org/doctrine/eens2.shtml

That is actually one of your tracts that you give people to scare them into converting. :tsktsk:

No, DD, you just don’t understand the doctrine. You also missed a key element of the statment, which is the word “physical”. The Catholic Church has received the teachings of the Apostles that there is ONLY ONE CHURCH. All who are members of Christ are therefore members of HIS ONE BODY, THE CHURCH. That is why there is no salvation outside the Church - because there is no salvation outside of Him.

 

[guanophore]

That is error that leads people to hell.

The truth is that there really is no salvation outside the church! It’s just not the Roman Catholic Church. The Church is the body of Christ. The Elect. People who trust in Jesus Christ as savior and follow him as Lord.

Those who die in their sins having no faith in Jesus will spend eternity in hell.

John 3:18 ESV
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

This notion is directly contradicted by scripture. I am surprised to hear a Calvanist Christian espouse it. It though that Calvanists claimed their whole faith is based on Scripture!

 

[guanophore]

Yes. They’ve all been wrong. They are generally the worst theologians in the entire world.

DD, I urge you to take some time to consider your motives and purpose here at CAF. We are not here for you to vent you disdain toward the Catholic faith. If you wish to participate here, then you are required to respect our faith. You dont’ have to agree with it, but you don’t have to insult us, either. I doubt that one could find a more learned individual heading a congregation than the current pope.You may not agree with his theology, but he is quite a scholar, unlike many of the popes that have gone before him.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Ahhhh, this is what many do not understand…glad you’re looking into this…Yes, we state that popes are infallible…This does NOT mean that they don’t sin and it does NOT mean that they don’t make mistakes…This means that because they are sitting in the chair of Peter, by the special graces they receive from the Holy Spirit, they cannot be wrong when they teach or make statements IN REGARDS TO FAITH OR MORALS ONLY.

OK. Gotcha.

So when pope Boniface said

We declare, say , define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. Pope Boniface VIII, (Unam Sanctam, 1302).

is this a statement that can not be wrong because he was teaching or making statements in regards to faith or morals only?

And did “the popes” write the link you’re referring to? Who wrote it?

No the popes did not write this link. It is from “Our Lady of the Rosary Library” since you are asking. But the article contains quotes by popes. It is in reference to these popes that I am asking. Is this an accurate quote by Pope Boniface?

Refer to the Catechism of the Catholic Church…no you don’t have to be a card-carrying Catholic to have eternal life…but think about this…if you seriously, honestly and with all humility look into the teachings of the Catholic Church, alongside with prayer and discussion/consultation with a good Catholic priest, and you reject everything, I don’t really know what will happen, but you will have to answer to God and only God in the end…

What has priority, quotations by popes when they are teaching on faith and morals or the Catechism of the Catholic church? What do you do when the two are in contradiction?

 

[Carlan]

I am not so sure about that…

Janet, The popes you have quoted lived before the reformation ,They were addressing Christ’s Church and the Popes after the reformation were addressing Catholics who were taught and knew the truth then deserted and denied her.

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door.** Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.**

knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it
Carlan

 

[Janet1983]

I just wanna say that I think all are saved eventually, even after death we can accept salvation.

Say what?!?
Where did you find that? That’s more of a Mormon thing than Christian…

 

[Janet1983]

Janet, The popes you have quoted lived before the reformation ,They were addressing Christ’s Church and the Popes after the reformation were addressing Catholics who were taught and knew the truth then deserted and denied her.

That does not change their statements however… Whomever they were directed at, they did proclaim their teachings.
Why is it that church fathers are being quoted into today’s experience and pope’s are not?
They said it and they meant it:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

By the way… I also quoted the following:

• Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum
• Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter
• Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, 8
• Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus
• Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae
• Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane
• Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum
• Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos
• Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953)

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Tanner9188

No comment.

 

[Peter_J]

You are confusing salavtion through the Church with having to be a *member *of the Church . The former is required-the latter is not now or ever has been Catholic Doctrine. I suggest a little homework:

1. Look up Fenneyism(it might suprise you what Fr Feeney was excomunicated for).

Disobedience.

 

[Tanner9188]

That is error that leads people to hell.

The truth is that there really is no salvation outside the church! It’s just not the Roman Catholic Church. The Church is the body of Christ. The Elect. People who trust in Jesus Christ as savior and follow him as Lord.

Those who die in their sins having no faith in Jesus will spend eternity in hell.

John 3:18 ESV
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

The Mormons and the JW’s make the same claim; so why should anyone believe any of it; isn’t that why when it comes to faith and practice; we must always come back to Scripture because we know it is divine; God breathed? All of the churches named above and the Catholic make the same claim and when you peel back all the fluff and get down to the core; it always lands on the same thing “because we say it is”. How can a “Church” that defines what is tradition and Scripture, and at the same time, claims it alone is the “infallible” interpreter, then be subject to it? "Because we say it is; therefore it is???

 

[Zundrah]

No comment.

Peter J,

hello, and what denomination are you from, if you don’t mind me asking? (I’m methodist)

 

[Tanner9188]

Of course a Christian can turn away from God…He will never turn away from us, though…I personally have people in my life who claim they are saved, but don’t go to church, don’t read the bible, claim they are angry with God and aren’t seeking resolution, and you don’t call this turning away from God?
Also, what about free will? We all have free will to walk away from anything or anyone…a marriage, a job, a relationship, a friendship, and God…He can’t stop it…

What about this scenario? A Christian who is tired of trying to be good and tired of not seeing their prayers answered one day down the road commits murder-intentionally. Is this called staying with God or walking away from him?
I know people who claim that once saved always saved…even if they murder, live with someone before marriage, have an extramarital affair, etc. etc.

What do you think?

I think your definition of a Christian and understanding of God and how He defined His true disciples is flawed because of a lack of understanding the Bible. Free will is a paradox in the Bible, just as the Trinity is, that the finite mind cannot fully comprehend. Who chooses who? God says no one would come to Him on their own and that He has chosen to have mercy on whom He will have mercy; yet we are free to reject His revelation, which He says we will unless He calls one to Himself. Yet we are held personally to the fact that we reject or accept. So God is sovereign over all, yet we have made our own beds, so to speak. Logically both can’t be true; yet they are and thus the paradox.

 

[Carlan]

That does not change their statements however… Whomever they were directed at, they did proclaim their teachings.
Why is it that church fathers are being quoted into today’s experience and pope’s are not?
They said it and they meant it:

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

By the way… I also quoted the following:

• Pope Leo XII (1823-1829), Encyclical Ubi Primum
• Pope Gregory XVI (1831-1846), Encyclical Summo Jugiter
• Pope Pius IX (1846-1878), Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, 8
• Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Annum Ingressi Sumus
• Pope Leo XIII (1878-1903), Encyclical Sapientiae Christianae
• Pope Pius X (1903-1914), Encyclical Jucunda Sane
• Pope Benedict XV (1914-1922), Encyclical Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum
• Pope Pius XI (1922-1939), Encyclical Mortalium Animos
• Pope Pius XII (1939-1958), Allocution to the Gregorian University (17 October 1953)

as an Anti Catholic you can twist and turn speak out of context all you want, spew all the falseness until the end of time and it is not going to change or break Christ’ s, Church.

For you also, I pray for a 'Saul of Tarsus ’ experience. Carlan

 

[Tomster]

I say what I mean and mean what I say.
You really miss the inquisition dont you?

Actually, you have said absolutely nothing in regards to my questions to you regarding Incarnational theology and its relationship to the Church.

Inquisition? Where did that come from? You brought the topic up, not me.

 

[estesbob]

That does not change their statements however… Whomever they were directed at, they did proclaim their teachings.
Why is it that church fathers are being quoted into today’s experience and pope’s are not?
They said it and they meant it:

Yes-they said what they meant. And what they meant is their is no salvation outside the Church. What they did not say is that one had to physically a member of the Church to obtain salvation. As others have show you ripped these quotes out of context(I suspect because you cut n pasted them from one of the mutlitude of anti-catholic sites that have them) and, as with scripture, expect eveyone to accept your personal interpretion without question.

It is especially sad to see one who was once a Catholic dismiss Church Doctrines with such shallow, superfical reasoning. You really do not know a lot about what the Church you rejected teaches, do you?

 

[estesbob]

I think your definition of a Christian and understanding of God and how He defined His true disciples is flawed because of a lack of understanding the Bible. Free will is a paradox in the Bible, just as the Trinity is, that the finite mind cannot fully comprehend. Who chooses who? God says no one would come to Him on their own and that He has chosen to have mercy on whom He will have mercy; yet we are free to reject His revelation, which He says we will unless He calls one to Himself. Yet we are held personally to the fact that we reject or accept. So God is sovereign over all, yet we have made our own beds, so to speak. Logically both can’t be true; yet they are and thus the paradox.

It is not a lack of undertanidng of the Bible that seperates us. it is you insistence that we ignore all who wne tbefore us and accept, without question, you personal interpretation of a handleful of scriptuere verses. you have based your entire theology on a small number of New Testament Scripture verses, taken out of context and twisted to fit you personal beleifs.

 

[Janet1983]

as an Anti Catholic you can twist and turn speak out of context all you want, spew all the falseness until the end of time and it is not going to change or break Christ’ s, Church.

For you also, I pray for a 'Saul of Tarsus ’ experience. Carlan

That is all you can come up with? I know you would never accept that from me…
Call me a bad Anti-Catholic and declare I speak out of context… wow…