Protestants---You must understand the Saints and why their bodies are incorruptible

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Righteousone said:
I think if non-Catholics actually read about the lives of the saints, and how there must be something to them because, not only are they found to be incorruptible, but there are thousands and thousands of saints that were martyred for the faith. To anyone, non-Catholic or not, you must know and see that there must be something good to this, and it has to be from Christ.
One cannot comment on these events if they had not researched it. You simply cannot use your own opinions, your own answers to something you know nothing about. That is why I, as a Catholic have a problem with Protestants. They will not or refuse to research what we (or I) show them. They just shrug things as whatever…🤷
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I don’t have anything about the “saints” themselves, some are extraordinary examples of Christian faith, but I don’t make a difference between people who have been canonized by the Catholic Church and those who haven’t …
If i like a prayer written by somebody, if I feel I can use in in my own prayer time because it sometimes corresponds to what I what to say ( that is what I also sometimes do with the psalms for example, but sometimes I “add” things, I reformulate … I will do the same with any text I use if I feel the need to … ) I don’t really care if the author is Protestant or Catholic and, if he is ( was ) a Catholic, to me it makes no difference whether he has been canonized or not …
So sometimes I use Catholic prayers too, for instance I like the prayer of Francis of Assissi ( I don’t know how his name is written in English , I’ve probably mispellt it ) in which he asks God to make him an instrument of peace …
And I admire Mother Theresa for what she did in India, the fact that she has been canonized doesn’t change anything for me …
 
Righteousone said:
As far as crusading goes, Louis brought AN END to the Albigensian Crusade in 1229.
Louis’s kindness and piety towards the poor was much celebrated.
He was a devout Catholic, in which he built the Sainte Chappelle (Holy Chapel). It was erected as a shrine for the crown of thorns and a fragment of the True Cross.
Pope Boniface Viii proclaimed the Canonization of Louis in 1297, he is ONE OF THE FEW royals in French history to have been declared a saint.
A lot of cities are named after him: St. Louis, Missouri, Saint Louis du senegal of Senegal, etc…
In other words, He was a good man. Good enough in the eyes of Jesus christ who called him into sainthood.
He use to wash the feet of the poor.
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There is a town called Saint Louis in my region too … maybe I got the wrong “number” : I wasn’t thinking about the Albigiensians ( by the way, I’ve got an Albigiensian friend, they’re still around 😃 ) but against the Muslims …
I’ve got the same problem ( I mean, I would have if I was a Catholic ) with Joan of Arc : how many English soldiers did she kill with her army ??? well, maybe as an American you don’t mind her killing English soldiers because of the War or Independence …👍

the criteria used by the Catholic church to canonize people are very obscure to me …
and anyway I don’t even understand fully what the concept means, but enough to know that it is a way, for the Catholic church, to honour someone in a special way ( but of course for you it goes further than that )…
in this context it doesn’t shock me for Mother Theresa for instance …
 
Huguenot said:
There is a town called Saint Louis in my region too … maybe I got the wrong “number” : I wasn’t thinking about the Albigiensians ( by the way, I’ve got an Albigiensian friend, they’re still around 😃 ) but against the Muslims …
I’ve got the same problem ( I mean, I would have if I was a Catholic ) with Joan of Arc : how many English soldiers did she kill with her army ??? well, maybe as an American you don’t mind her killing English soldiers because of the War or Independence …👍

the criteria used by the Catholic church to canonize people are very obscure to me …
and anyway I don’t even understand fully what the concept means, but enough to know that it is a way, for the Catholic church, to honour someone in a special way ( but of course for you it goes further than that )…
in this context it doesn’t shock me for Mother Theresa for instance …
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If you like Mother Teresa, then you would like all the saints because most also helped the poor, but above all, most were tortured, beheaded, flayed alive, etc…for the Catholic faith. Anyone here Catholic or non-Catholic has to see that thousands of saints had died for their faith and believe that this is something from God himself. These saints were tortured in this life, to receive the throne in the next.
Why would that be hard to understand?
 
holdencaulfield said:
Thats true many are not documented. However it is obvious that you were healed through Christ, although I don’t know much about the issue. I was referring not to ones mastery over themselves, however miracles through nature I guess you could say.
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Celiac Disease spontaneously remits on its own. It’s a self-limited disease.
 
Protestants do well to avoid sainting their heroes, and canonization.

Many Catholics sainted in the past would be recognized now as being profoundly disturbed, such as St. Rose of Lima who tortured herself, burying a spiked chain deep in her flesh, for instance. The Dominican, St. Vincent Ferrer, was a vicious anti-Semite who was deeply involved in the Inquisition. St. Chrysostom, an early church father, despised Jews.The visions of St. Teresa of Avila are almost embarrassingly erotic. What is one era’s holiness is anothers mental illness. Protestants do well to avoid this morass.

Mother Teresa, who has been widely admired, is also widely criticized, now that a few years have passed since her death. She received gigantic amounts of money, but didn’t spend much for good medical care for her suffering, destitute patients. She didn’t spend much for pain relief, either, despite the fact that India has long made cheap, generic drugs. I think that she loved suffering and felt that everyone should suffer, as she did. Her nuns illicitly baptized their poor clients. Mother Teresa got first-class medical care for herself, though.

All religions have produced martyrs who suffered terrible torments in the name of their religion. Jews burned alive by Catholics, Protestants burned alive by Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus. Their suffering does not validate their religion.
 
Righteousone said:
If you like Mother Teresa, then you would like all the saints because most also helped the poor, but above all, most were tortured, beheaded, flayed alive, etc…for the Catholic faith. Anyone here Catholic or non-Catholic has to see that thousands of saints had died for their faith and believe that this is something from God himself. These saints were tortured in this life, to receive the throne in the next.
Why would that be hard to understand?
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but I don’t say I don’t appreciate the “saints”, only, in the New Testament, when the word “saint” is used for people, it simply means “Christians”, not super heroes …
it’s true that Catholics were tortured for their faith, but it is true for Protestants too : in France for example ( I’m French and Protestant ) especially just before the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes : then Protestantism was completely forbidden in France for a bit more than a hundred years, and forced conversions had started even before the Revocation ( a few years before ) with very violent methods …( and in some Protestant countries, the same happened, but the other way round, which is not better )
after the Revocation the violent methods continued and a lot of children were taken away from their Protestant parents to be raised by Catholic families or in Catholic convents, a lot of Huguenots, although it was forbidden ( they had to stay in France and convert ) managed to flee to other countries, that is why you have a lot of people of French Huguenot descent nearly everywhere in the world …
In some regions of France Protestantism more or less “survived” during the period it was forbidden, but in some regions it was totally eradicated, and even now you find very few Protestants in those regions … ( there are more in the regions where it survived … )

I know it because I am a civil servant and at the beginning of my career I was sent to a region where I didn’t find any coreligionist : that’s is why I voluntarily moved to another part of my country ( the proportion of Protestants in France is very low : about 2% of the population … it is a very small proportion compared to Muslims, for example, who represent about 6%-8% of the population ; Catholics about 80% … of course it doesn’t mean they are all believers but the same is also true for Muslims or Protestants or any other religious group in France )

In general the Protestant-Catholic relationship is good in France ; I couldn’t help laughing when I read statistics that show that there are more mixed Protestant-Catholic couples than … Protestant-Protestant couples …:hug3:
 
1234 said:
Protestants do well to avoid sainting their heroes, and canonization.

Many Catholics sainted in the past would be recognized now as being profoundly disturbed, such as St. Rose of Lima who tortured herself, burying a spiked chain deep in her flesh, for instance. The Dominican, St. Vincent Ferrer, was a vicious anti-Semite who was deeply involved in the Inquisition. St. Chrysostom, an early church father, despised Jews.The visions of St. Teresa of Avila are almost embarrassingly erotic. What is one era’s holiness is anothers mental illness. Protestants do well to avoid this morass.

Mother Teresa, who has been widely admired, is also widely criticized, now that a few years have passed since her death. She received gigantic amounts of money, but didn’t spend much for good medical care for her suffering, destitute patients. She didn’t spend much for pain relief, either, despite the fact that India has long made cheap, generic drugs. I think that she loved suffering and felt that everyone should suffer, as she did. Her nuns illicitly baptized their poor clients. Mother Teresa got first-class medical care for herself, though.

All religions have produced martyrs who suffered terrible torments in the name of their religion. Jews burned alive by Catholics, Protestants burned alive by Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus. Their suffering does not validate their religion.
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I’ve also read that kind of criticism about Mother Theresa, but “my” sources ( French ones , or at least I read some criticisms in French ) seemed rather biassed to me, that is why I found it hard to believe …
but for other people canonized by the Catholic Church I agree with you …
 
allischalmers said:
Well maybe we do not go around digging up people to see what they look like after they are dead and buried
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Good show, Allis.

Yes, Protestants don’t dig people up much.

There was a very interesting program some years ago on TV, which was part of Arthur C. Clarke’s “World of Strange Powers”, which involved a scientific analysis of phenomena. These were re-released on vhs in 1997 and are widely available online for little money. (Search under “Arthur C. Clarke”). I have a vhs tape of his program on the stigmata, which is very interesting. I remember another one on ‘miraculous’ preservation. I bought and read a book called The Incorruptibles and have looked at what photos are available online. I also read a long piece in Wikipedia which I recommend to anyone interested. I’m in the medical field.

There are many factors which go into preservation of a body. Many of the old ones, Italian female medieval saints, strike me as being mummified–they look like Ramses II. Others apparently started to deteriorate after the casket was opened, a fact which suggests natural factors. In the old days, when saints died, like Bernadette Soubirous, they were in an advanced state of decline and starvation and had eaten little in their last days. This means that they have little body fat and their colons are empty–two facts which enhance preservation.

Bernadette, the best-known, was covered with wax after her exhumation; her body discolored after she was washed. There is a picture online of her in the casket after she died; the effigy of her in her casket does not resemble this picture, which showed a very wizened, starved figure.
catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/images/bernbw.jpg

I suspect that in the 21st century, where everything can be photographed on site, we will see fewer ‘preservations’. After a botched embalming by the personal quack doctor of Pius XII, who rotted during his funeral ceremonies, all of the popes’ bodies have been officially embalmed-by an embalmer.
 
1234 said:
Good show, Allis.

Yes, Protestants don’t dig people up much.

There was a very interesting program some years ago on TV, which was part of Arthur C. Clarke’s “World of Strange Powers”, which involved a scientific analysis of phenomena. These were re-released on vhs in 1997 and are widely available online for little money. (Search under “Arthur C. Clarke”). I have a vhs tape of his program on the stigmata, which is very interesting. I remember another one on ‘miraculous’ preservation. I bought and read a book called The Incorruptibles and have looked at what photos are available online. I also read a long piece in Wikipedia which I recommend to anyone interested. I’m in the medical field.

There are many factors which go into preservation of a body. Many of the old ones, Italian female medieval saints, strike me as being mummified–they look like Ramses II. Others apparently started to deteriorate after the casket was opened, a fact which suggests natural factors. In the old days, when saints died, like Bernadette Soubirous, they were in an advanced state of decline and starvation and had eaten little in their last days. This means that they have little body fat and their colons are empty–two facts which enhance preservation.

Bernadette, the best-known, was covered with wax after her exhumation; her body discolored after she was washed. There is a picture online of her in the casket after she died; the effigy of her in her casket does not resemble this picture, which showed a very wizened, starved figure.
catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/images/bernbw.jpg

I suspect that in the 21st century, where everything can be photographed on site, we will see fewer ‘preservations’. After a botched embalming by the personal quack doctor of Pius XII, who rotted during his funeral ceremonies, all of the popes’ bodies have been officially embalmed-by an embalmer.
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No one has been perfectly uncorrupted. However if the cause is science, then science has an odd reason to always pick Catholic Saints.
 
1234 said:
Protestants do well to avoid sainting their heroes, and canonization.

Many Catholics sainted in the past would be recognized now as being profoundly disturbed, such as St. Rose of Lima who tortured herself, burying a spiked chain deep in her flesh, for instance. The Dominican, St. Vincent Ferrer, was a vicious anti-Semite who was deeply involved in the Inquisition. St. Chrysostom, an early church father, despised Jews.The visions of St. Teresa of Avila are almost embarrassingly erotic. What is one era’s holiness is anothers mental illness. Protestants do well to avoid this morass.

Mother Teresa, who has been widely admired, is also widely criticized, now that a few years have passed since her death. She received gigantic amounts of money, but didn’t spend much for good medical care for her suffering, destitute patients. She didn’t spend much for pain relief, either, despite the fact that India has long made cheap, generic drugs. I think that she loved suffering and felt that everyone should suffer, as she did. Her nuns illicitly baptized their poor clients. Mother Teresa got first-class medical care for herself, though.

All religions have produced martyrs who suffered terrible torments in the name of their religion. Jews burned alive by Catholics, Protestants burned alive by Catholics, Buddhists, Hindus. Their suffering does not validate their religion.
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You obviously know nothing about these saints. And how DARE you say these things about Mother Teresa. She is a saint, she held leppers, she worked in the slums, she worked tirelessly, you know nothing of her. You really should be ashamed of yourself for saying these things. :mad:
Catholics are being killed EVERY DAY!! All over the world! But what would you know about that also?
 
1234 said:
Celiac Disease spontaneously remits on its own. It’s a self-limited disease.
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People believed that in the 1970s because it often goes in remission during Puberty for some reason. Since then research has shown it does NOT go away. Some cases laid dorment for awhile and then came back in such subtle symptoms that the patient died before it was found. PLease do not prepetuate out of date info.
 
holdencaulfield said:
No one has been perfectly uncorrupted. However if the cause is science, then science has an odd reason to always pick Catholic Saints.
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As I stated earlier, nobody but Catholics digs up bodies. That is, starts a canonization process and then exhumes and opens a casket. OR keeps someone’s mummified body exposed in a glass casket as is commonly seen throughout Italy.
 
Righteousone said:
You obviously know nothing about these saints. And how DARE you say these things about Mother Teresa. She is a saint, she held leppers, she worked in the slums, she worked tirelessly, you know nothing of her. You really should be ashamed of yourself for saying these things. :mad:
Catholics are being killed EVERY DAY!! All over the world! But what would you know about that also?
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Under the First Amendment, fortunately I have a right to publish an opinion which is widely held by others. Mother T. did work tirelessly, but not always compassionately or intelligently, given the millions of dollars she had to work with. She would have done well to stay with her first apostolate, teaching young girls. The education of women is the key to their futures, to prosperity in an economy and to control of population size, which didn’t concern Mother Teresa. Fortunately, India is now doing these things–fostering education and birth control-- and its standard of living is rising rapidly.

Mother Teresa died in her bed, having received far better medical care than she gave her starving Indians. No one killed her, so calm down.
 
1234 said:
As I stated earlier, nobody but Catholics digs up bodies. That is, starts a canonization process and then exhumes and opens a casket. OR keeps someone’s mummified body exposed in a glass casket as is commonly seen throughout Italy.
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That is because the bodies are uncorruptible. All documented. Not just seen throughout Italy, but spain, France, Croatia, Greece, Germany, Prague, the whole world was Catholic then and Europe, since I just got back from there, is still mostly Catholic.
And nobody but Catholics can have this process because it is from God, and the Catholic faith is the one true religion from Christ.
 
1234 said:
Under the First Amendment, fortunately I have a right to publish an opinion which is widely held by others. Mother T. did work tirelessly, but not always compassionately or intelligently, given the millions of dollars she had to work with. She would have done well to stay with her first apostolate, teaching young girls. The education of women is the key to their futures, to prosperity in an economy and to control of population size, which didn’t concern Mother Teresa. Fortunately, India is now doing these things–fostering education and birth control-- and its standard of living is rising rapidly.

Mother Teresa died in her bed, having received far better medical care than she gave her starving Indians. No one killed her, so calm down.
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Where do you get this information from, your anti-Catholic friends, or your pastor in your ‘church’. It is positively untrue, the woman is a saint for all her tireless work she has done…could you do what she’s done? I doubt it…Stop lying and get your facts straight about this wonderful woman sent by God to care of these leppers in India, she’d pick them off of the ground, care for them.
Before you go off at the mouth insulting Mother Teresa and insulting my Catholic faith, you’d better read about her biography first. If she died in her bed, how was she receiving medical care??? smarten up.:mad:
 
1234 said:
Under the First Amendment, fortunately I have a right to publish an opinion which is widely held by others. Mother T. did work tirelessly, but not always compassionately or intelligently, given the millions of dollars she had to work with. She would have done well to stay with her first apostolate, teaching young girls. The education of women is the key to their futures, to prosperity in an economy and to control of population size, which didn’t concern Mother Teresa. Fortunately, India is now doing these things–fostering education and birth control-- and its standard of living is rising rapidly.

Mother Teresa died in her bed, having received far better medical care than she gave her starving Indians. No one killed her, so calm down.
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Another thing, you are a UU, so what you know about my faith is nothing…zero, zilch, nada.
 
holdencaulfield said:
I honestly haven’t heard one example of a Protestant miracle.
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I need to respond to this to enlighten your mind.

A woman at our non-RC church was diagnosed with throat cancer and given no more than 9-12 months to live. The cancer was so bad that one part of the tumor actually started to close off her throat making it very difficult to breathe. The doctor had to insert a stent just to combat this part of the battle.

We prayed with her and her family huddle style led by our Elders with her in the middle. Of course everyone continued to pray individually for her. After a series of Cyber Knife treatments the Doctor reached a point where they could do no more. Upon a final scan to see how much of the cancer was left they noticed several spots that were reduced but still tested positive as cancer cells.

One final procedure was scheduled to see if they could do anything for her and after opening her up discovered that these spots suddenly became scar tissue. These were the same spots that were marked as positive on the pathology report. My wife is a doctor and looked at the pathology report stating she probably won’t live much longer. After hearing they were just scar tissue my wife literally had no explanation other than GOD.

In the recovery room while this woman was starting to come out of her general anesthesia Jesus himself paid her a visit. The experience she circulated was absolutely incredible. Jesus touched her and spoke with her. Gave her visions of heaven where she saw her deceased Aunts and Uncles. As they approached the gates of Heaven Jesus turned to her and said you have to return you have some more work to do. While Jesus was moving away from her she began to call to HIM saying Jesus please don’t leave me. When she started to come completely out the anesthesia she heard the recovery room nurses saying “This woman is calling to Jesus”.

Might I suggest you examine your shallow mind and understand that GOD and Jesus do work outside the Roman Catholic church.

PEACE
 
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