Prove it!

[benidict]

I’m not Baptist, so I remember very little what learned in Bible School 25+ yrs ago.

ok thanks, heres a brief rundown. menno simons 1496- january 31 1561. in 1515 or 1516 he became a catholic priest. having problems accepting the Churches interpretation of the eucharist and baptism. he embarked on a study that led him to the conclusion that the church was wrong on these two issues. he came to what is known in protestant circles as an evengelical humansist position. in 1536 menno simons rejected the priest hood and the church. and formed what today is called the mennonites.
enter john smyth. born 1507 -1612. he became an anglican priest. came into contact with the mennonites. was convinced they were right. came home and founded the baptist church in 1609. he wanted to bring the mennonite beliefs but the mennonites were a peace church and also did not believe in becoming involved with politics. therefore they accepted the baptism position but not the concientious objector or poitical positions. they became known as the baptist. toward the end of his life, john smyth again attempted to bring his followers into the mennonite fold. he died before this was accomplished. so therefore the founder of the baptist faith didnt actually hold to what he had founded. he believed the mennonites had the truth. this being the case youd almost think the founding of the baptist church was an error that even the founder realized. maybe the baptist need to abandon their position in the light of history and be reunited with their mennonite bretheren. :grouphug:

 

[guanophore]

Reading these posts has given me insight into understanding Catholic thinking. What reason should Christ possibly have to come again if everything is understood so well by the Church?

DavidMark, how on earth did you locate an obscure thread 5 1/2 years old?

What is the point you are trying to make? Did you just choose this thread arbitrarily? That seems to be the case, as you response seems to have nothing to do with the thread.

 

[kalt]

What is the quickest, easiest way to prove to a Baptist that the Catholic church is the true church Jesus Christ founded, and is still the true church?

Read the book. It’s very short, and it’s good.

 

[DavidMark]

DavidMark, how on earth did you locate an obscure thread 5 1/2 years old? What is the point you are trying to make? Did you just choose this thread arbitrarily? That seems to be the case, as you response seems to have nothing to do with the thread.

O don’t shrug! You should be glad it was resurrected! I’m sure you know that all the posts are numbered and archived in a nice little row. Yes, I read things randomly. That’s what helped me win at pool, slop shots!
But it seems to me, in general, that the venerable age of the Church makes some people a little proud, and some actually don’t think God will reveal anything else, and that is a sorry position to put God in. Like the Jews did…

“‘The hand of God,’ say the Jews, ‘is chained up.’
Chained up be their own hands!
And for that which they have said,
they were accursed.
Nay, outstretched are both His hands!”[Qur’án 5:64.]
“The hand of God is above their hands.”[Qur’án 48:10.]
(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 135)

I have been mentioning sometimes to Catholics that Peter denied his Lord three times, but repented and sacrificed himself, and it seems that should be what the Papacy should do too, since it has denied Muhammad, the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh. But can you see it sacrificing its own existence. No way! They won’t even sell off all their treasures to buy this precious field. It will be a dreadful day, perhaps, when it does happen.

Baha’u’llah’s Tablet to Pope Pius IX: reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-5.html

 

[PJM]

=Dokimas;
The problem isn’t with ‘sola scriptura’ but with those misrepresenting the Scriptures that hold to ‘sola scriptura’. It’s the same with the idea that there is one universal Christian church known as the Body of Christ. The concept is correct but it’s those who think their church and its teaching is the only true church that is (are) the problem.

Dear friend,

I respectfully disagree with your position.

Factually and heavily supported by abundant historical evidence, Jesus Chrsit Founded, precisely as He intended, only One Church. That which we know today as the “Catholic Church.” Further this was the only Christian church for hundreds of years and continues to be the largest and most influencential church today.

The Bible, as it was written in full by the end of the First Century is a Catholic Book. It’s OT was compliled by Catholics and the NT was written completely by Catholics and for Catholics.

One may not usurp the title of ***“One True Church”, *** as it applies only to Catholics. This One True church is much more than “the world wide community of believers in Christ,” it refers to common doctrine, dogma and Sacred Tradition, common beliefs and practices, all based by the way implicitly, or explicitly on the Bible. The One True Church is unique in that She alone is the keeper and holder of all Truth on matters of Faith and Morals, and is the sole valid practicioner of the Seven sacraments all inistituted by Jesus Christ.

We do remain Brethern based on a common Baptism and belief in the Most Blessed Trinity, but that alone fails to incorporate one into the “One True Church.” This does not imply that one “must be a Catholic” inorder to be saved, but does mean that all salvation continues to flow through the Bride of Christ, in a mysterious manner.

**Eph. 2:19 19 **“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [SINGULAR] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure [SINGULAR] is joined together and grows into a holy temple [SINGULAR] in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[PJM]

=geometer;5863626]The catholic church is one that thinks it is the only true church, so its just another one of those. Your complaint is more valid than you think.

So friend, which is it you don’t believe? Jesus Chrsit or His Divinely Inspired Wrods? [2 Tim. 3:16] Can you provide evidence that Jesus Chrsit personally founded your or any other church besides the Catholic Church?

Please lookup these verses, IF you have any interest in The Truth?

One Church

Mt. 16: 15 He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [singular] tell you, you are Peter,[singular] and on this rock [singular] I will build my [singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.[singular] 19 I [God singular] will give you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph. 2:19 19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Mal.1 [11] , Eph. 4: 4, 1 Cor. 14: 12,Eph. 3: 9 ,Col. 1: 18 , 1 Pet 20: 28, Mt. 18: 15 ,Gal. 1: 13 ,1 Cor. 12: 12, Phil. 3: 8 , Luke 11: 28, 2 Peter 3:16, 2 Peter 2: 1-6

Eph. 5: 23 Christ is the head of the church [singular] , his body, [singular]

As you look these up note the use of “SINGULAR TENSE” CHURCH!

 

[Jon_Hus]

The easiest way to convince a Baptist (or anyone for that matter) that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church is to give him or her the tract titled "St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre’, which describes in detail how the Baptist’s murdered innocent Catholics while Calvin just stood there and watched. Point out how Luther had a commerative medal struck to profit from the event and how Jerry Falwell ordered the big guns at Liberty University fired in celebration.

Always works for me.
Reporting from the bunker…Jon

 

[benidict]

The easiest way to convince a Baptist (or anyone for that matter) that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church is to give him or her the tract titled "St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre’, which describes in detail how the Baptist’s murdered innocent Catholics while Calvin just stood there and watched. Point out how Luther had a commerative medal struck to profit from the event and how Jerry Falwell ordered the big guns at Liberty University fired in celebration.

Always works for me.
Reporting from the bunker…Jon

do you have a place where i can go to to read about jerry falwell doing this. didnt much like the guy, but this seems a little over the top. dont know if i believe this. calvin and luther it wouldnt suprise me though. but back then people of all stripes were killing eachother. it was a very dark time.

 

[benidict]

The easiest way to convince a Baptist (or anyone for that matter) that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church is to give him or her the tract titled "St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre’, which describes in detail how the Baptist’s murdered innocent Catholics while Calvin just stood there and watched. Point out how Luther had a commerative medal struck to profit from the event and how Jerry Falwell ordered the big guns at Liberty University fired in celebration.

Always works for me.
Reporting from the bunker…Jon

just looked this up on wikopedia. this massacre was carried out in france against the protestants by the Catholics. just dont want to accuse a movement thats not guilty. this had to do with the french huegenots. dont know the proper spelling sorry. must be another massacre your thinking of. not defending the baptist. but this would explain jerry falwell shooting the big guns in memory of this since it was Catholic on protestant violence. plenty of protestant violence against Catholics in that era too. so i dont think that will prove anything

 

[rev_kevin]

So friend, which is it you don’t believe? Jesus Chrsit or His Divinely Inspired Wrods? [2 Tim. 3:16] Can you provide evidence that Jesus Chrsit personally founded your or any other church besides the Catholic Church?

“All {plural} Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us {plural} what is true and to make us {plural} realize what is wrong in our {plural} lives. It straightens us {plural} out and teachs us {plural} to do what is right.”

Please lookup these verses, IF you have any interest in The Truth?

One Church

Mt. 16: 15 He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [singular] tell you, you are Peter,[singular] and on this rock [singular] I will build my [singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.[singular] 19 I [God singular] will give you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph. 2:19 19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Mal.1 [11] , Eph. 4: 4, 1 Cor. 14: 12,Eph. 3: 9 ,Col. 1: 18 , 1 Pet 20: 28, Mt. 18: 15 ,Gal. 1: 13 ,1 Cor. 12: 12, Phil. 3: 8 , Luke 11: 28, 2 Peter 3:16, 2 Peter 2: 1-6

Eph. 5: 23 Christ is the head of the church [singular] , his body, [singular]

As you look these up note the use of “SINGULAR TENSE” CHURCH!

Ok lets look at the word “rock.” The word “rock” on which Jesus would build his church has been identified as 1} Jesus hinself {his work of salvation by dying for us on the cross}
2} Peter {the first great leader in the church at Jerusalem} 3} the confession of faith that Peter gave and that all subsequent true believers would give. It seems most likely that the “rock” refers to Peter as the leader o fthe church {for its function, not necessarily the character}. Just as peter had revealed the true identity of Christ, so Jesus revealed Peter’s identuty and role. Later Peter reminds Christians that they are the church built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the cornerstone {1 Peter 2:4-6}. All believers are joined into this church by faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, the same faith that Peter expressed here.It is the faith like Peter’s that is the foundation of Christ’s Kingdom. Ephesians 5:23 is talking about the Spirit guided relationship between a wife and husband. It says in full. 23- "For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body, the church; he gave his life to be her Savior. 24-“As the church submits to Christ, so you wives must submit to your husbands in everything.” Eph.4:4 means All believers {plural} in Christ belong to one body{singular}, all {plural} are united under one head{singular}, Christ himself. {see 1 cor.12:12-27} Eph. 3:9 “Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.” Col 1:18 means Christ is the “first of all {plural} who will rise from the dead.” Jesus was raised from the death, and his resurrection proves his lordship over the material world. All {plural} who trust in Christ will also defeat death and rise again to live eternally with him { also see, 1 cor. 15:20, 1 Thess.4:14, Phil 2:5-11} Mat.18:15 “if another believer sins agains you, go privately and point out the fault. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back.” The prohibiting and allowing refers to the decisions of the church in conflicts. Among believers, there is no court or appeals beyond the church. The word believers{plural} have the responsibility to bring their problems to the church and the church has the responsibility to use God’s guidance in seeking to resolve conflicts. Luke 11:28 Now in v.27 Jesus was speaking when a woman called out God bless your mother the womb from which you came and the breast that nursed you. Then in v. 28 Jesus replied “But even more blessed are all {plural} who hear the word of God and put it into practice.” We need to look at the whole verse not just parts of it and in doing so I see no evidence of the Cathollic church as the “true church” or that Peter started the Catholic Church.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

What is the quickest, easiest way to prove to a Baptist that the Catholic church is the true church Jesus Christ founded, and is still the true church?

No proof is possible or available.​

And the question implies a vast number of others, because of the sheer number of assumptions. To cut down on them,one would have to take all the implications of the question apart - apart all, Baptists have beliefs, just as anyone else does.

 

[DavidMark]

I agree with this.
The first post in the Baha’i thread sought to find proofs with which to disprove Baha’i, not to understand why it is vital to those who love it.

**Christ ratified and proclaimed the foundation of the law of Moses. Muhammad and all the prophets have revoiced that same foundation of reality. Therefore the purposes and accomplishments of the divine messengers have been one and the same. They were the source of advancement to the body-politic and the cause of the honor and divine civilization of humanity the foundation of which is one and the same in every dispensation. It is evident then that the proofs of the validity and inspiration of a prophet of God are the deeds of beneficent accomplishment and greatness emanating from Him. If He proves to be instrumental in the elevation and betterment of mankind, He is undoubtedly a valid and heavenly messenger. **(Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 275)

 

[crazzeto]

Start with a good understanding of the Bible, then move on to the Fathers (church fathers). This is not quick, nor easy, nor should it be. We should not “religion shop”, as there should (and is) a single objective truth to God. While I firmly believe only we Catholics have the entirty of that truth with out error, it is right and correct that a Baptist should not be easily convinced. They should believe them selves right, but if you stick with it and do convert them, you will have one very well rooted Catholic.

 

[DavidMark]

I know people from every religion and race and language who have come into Baha’i, because they see the fulfillment of the prophecies.

After His Father Baha’u’llah had passed away in 1892, Abdu’l-Baha was still under house-arrest under the Turks, and He said in 1903:

If you had come to this blessed place in the days of the manifestation of the evident Light,[Bahá’u’lláh] if you had attained to the court of His presence, and had witnessed His luminous beauty, you would have understood that His teachings and perfection were not in need of further evidence.

Only through the honor of entering His presence, many souls became confirmed believers; they had no need of other proofs. Even those people who rejected and hated Him bitterly, when they had met Him, would testify to the grandeur of Bahá’u’lláh, saying, “This is a magnificent man, but what a pity that he makes such a claim! Otherwise, all that he says is acceptable.”

But now, as that Light of Reality has set, all are in need of proofs; so we have undertaken to demonstrate rational proofs of the truth of His claim. We will cite another which alone is sufficient for all who are just, and which no one can deny. It is that this illustrious Being uplifted His Cause in the “Greatest Prison”[Akka, in Palestine] from this Prison His light was shed abroad, His fame conquered the world, and the proclamation of His glory reached the East and West. Until our time no such thing has ever occurred.If there be justice, this will be acknowledged; but there are some people who, even if all the proofs in the world be adduced before them, still will not judge justly!

 

[freedomwriter]

So friend, which is it you don’t believe? Jesus Chrsit or His Divinely Inspired Wrods? [2 Tim. 3:16] Can you provide evidence that Jesus Chrsit personally founded your or any other church besides the Catholic Church?

Please lookup these verses, IF you have any interest in The Truth?

One Church

Mt. 16: 15 He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [singular] tell you, you are Peter,[singular] and on this rock [singular] I will build my [singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.[singular] 19 I [God singular] will give you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph. 2:19 19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Mal.1 [11] , Eph. 4: 4, 1 Cor. 14: 12,Eph. 3: 9 ,Col. 1: 18 , 1 Pet 20: 28, Mt. 18: 15 ,Gal. 1: 13 ,1 Cor. 12: 12, Phil. 3: 8 , Luke 11: 28, 2 Peter 3:16, 2 Peter 2: 1-6

Eph. 5: 23 Christ is the head of the church [singular] , his body, [singular]

As you look these up note the use of “SINGULAR TENSE” CHURCH!

In Matthew’s account 16 Jesus is talking about himself as the rock and Peter as the small stone. We also read later where Jesus tells Peter get thee behind me Satan. Now would you think Jesus would want Peter to be the leader of the church after that comment.

 

[DavidMark]

Friends,
Please look at these three criteria given by Lord Jesus, when telling us how to “test the spirits”:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21
First Proof
When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of Him. (Deut. 18:22) [The many prophecies made by Bahá’u’lláh can be studied elsewhere.]

Second Proof
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (1 John 4:2 & 3 KJV) [Baha’u’llah’s testimonies to Christ are as natural as Christ’s to Moses.]

Third Proof
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:16-20) [So what are the fruits? Notice Jesus repeats that you SHALL know them by this test.]

 

[benidict]

i appreciate that. just thought he was terribly misinformed. i guess we could bring up the slaughter of “witches” in salem. or the slaughter of Catholics in england. all by good protestants. and sometimes its neccesarry for all of us to look at our darker histories. so that these things never happen again. Catholic or protestant. thanks for the info tho.

 

[benidict]

I know people from every religion and race and language who have come into Baha’i, because they see the fulfillment of the prophecies.

After His Father Baha’u’llah had passed away in 1892, Abdu’l-Baha was still under house-arrest under the Turks, and He said in 1903:

If you had come to this blessed place in the days of the manifestation of the evident Light,[Bahá’u’lláh] if you had attained to the court of His presence, and had witnessed His luminous beauty, you would have understood that His teachings and perfection were not in need of further evidence.

Only through the honor of entering His presence, many souls became confirmed believers; they had no need of other proofs. Even those people who rejected and hated Him bitterly, when they had met Him, would testify to the grandeur of Bahá’u’lláh, saying, “This is a magnificent man, but what a pity that he makes such a claim! Otherwise, all that he says is acceptable.”

But now, as that Light of Reality has set, all are in need of proofs; so we have undertaken to demonstrate rational proofs of the truth of His claim. We will cite another which alone is sufficient for all who are just, and which no one can deny. It is that this illustrious Being uplifted His Cause in the “Greatest Prison”[Akka, in Palestine] from this Prison His light was shed abroad, His fame conquered the world, and the proclamation of His glory reached the East and West. Until our time no such thing has ever occurred.If there be justice, this will be acknowledged; but there are some people who, even if all the proofs in the world be adduced before them, still will not judge justly!

hi david mark. i must confess. your postings many times trip me out.lol! keep em comin. but seriously. where can i get some good books on your faith? also is it a branch of of islam? or the suffies? thanks

 

[DavidMark]

hi david mark. i must confess. your postings many times trip me out.lol! keep em comin. but seriously. where can i get some good books on your faith? also is it a branch of of islam? or the suffies? thanks

There were Sufís like Shah Nimatullah Valí in the 15th century, who wrote prophecies about Baha’u’llah similar to Isaiah or Ezekiel. Baha’u’llah influenced the Sufís, not the other way around.
Baha’i does come out of the Islamic matrix described in Revealtion chapter 12, and interpreted now, not by just anyone, but the appointed and inspired Interpreters, what we call the Central Figures of the Faith: The Báb (1819-1850) who was the Herald and Fore-runner of Bahá’u’lláh (1817-1892), and 'Abdu’l-Baha (1844-1921).

Here are a few links:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-5.html Tablet to Pope Pius IX from Baha’u’llah

bahaiprayers.org/healing6.htm Long Healing Prayer

 

[allischalmers]

Quickest way… by far, it is death. At that point our eyes will be opened by the Lord, to see the Lord, to know the Lord.

Until then pray. This all happens in God’s time, not ours.

MrS

Didn’t you know that everyone in heaven is a Baptist!