Prove it!

[Leslie_Polley]

Aside from the biblical evidence already put forth in this and various other threads, I give you this:

Matthew 7
21 Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?”
23 And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.”

The Catholic Church can show you that she has persevered in doing the will of our Father in heaven. Just look at the bible to see one of the fruits of our Church.

Show me the fruits of the your Church in doing the will of God.

Dominus vobiscum,

FSC

P.S. I apologize if this response is more… aggressive… than it needs to be. I tend to be quite a bit too “in your face” when I talk about some things (religion and politics to be precise), and I pray often that God allow me to live more in a “Caritas in Veritate” style than the way I have been. So please don’t take offense as none is intended.

You do not offend me. I am the same way I will not argue the Word with you, but we can sure discuss it!. Well lets start with the Fruits of the Spirit. Do you know them, or where to find them? Here they are and where to find them…You find the Fruits of the Spirit, which can found in Galatians 5:22-23…read on through 24 and 25. also read Galatians 5:19-21.
Anyway the fruits are “love, joy,peace, long suffering gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance;against such there is no law”

Number one the Fruits of the Spirit are for individuals. That is what we are to show, that by these signs they will know we are followers of Christ. Now is that what you were talking about. If it is, it makes no sence, because we are judged individually. Galatians is a great book to read. Can you tell me who Sirach? About the scriptures you gave me…well that refers to those who are “not born again”. Being Born Again is not an option, it is a MUST. John 3-1-9, These are words from Jesus own mouth. In the ways to do this you can find them in John 3;16, Romans 10;9-10, John 1-9,… In Revelations 22;16 He refers to churches…I just happen to come across this , and it does not refer to just one church, because there were many, none of which had a special name except where they came from. It does not say you must be a member of the CC, it says YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN. I looked for the Fruits of the CC and did not come across any

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I have a question for you. where in the Bible does it say that the Catholic church is the " true" church. I have seen NO specific church named. Only that the only way you can get to heaven is to “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For one believes with the heart and so is justified and one confessed with the mouth and so is saved. For the scripture says, No one who believes in Him will be put to sham. For there is no distinction between Hebrew and Greek. The same Lord is Lord of all enriching all who call upon Him. For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” "Romans 10:9-12 (Catholic Bible)
Nowhere does it say that we are saved by a church, but only through Jesus Christ, by His birth, crusifixion, and resurection. He is the way, the truth and the life. A church cannot save you.

You do not offend me. I am the same way I will not argue the Word with you, but we can sure discuss it!. Well lets start with the Fruits of the Spirit. Do you know them, or where to find them? Here they are and where to find them…You find the Fruits of the Spirit, which can found in Galatians 5:22-23…read on through 24 and 25. also read Galatians 5:19-21.
Anyway the fruits are “love, joy,peace, long suffering gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance;against such there is no law”

Number one the Fruits of the Spirit are for individuals. That is what we are to show, that by these signs they will know we are followers of Christ. Now is that what you were talking about. If it is, it makes no sence, because we are judged individually. Galatians is a great book to read. Can you tell me who Sirach? About the scriptures you gave me…well that refers to those who are “not born again”. Being Born Again is not an option, it is a MUST. John 3-1-9, These are words from Jesus own mouth. In the ways to do this you can find them in John 3;16, Romans 10;9-10, John 1-9,… In Revelations 22;16 He refers to churches…I just happen to come across this , and it does not refer to just one church, because there were many, none of which had a special name except where they came from. It does not say you must be a member of the CC, it says YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN. I looked for the Fruits of the CC and did not come across any

See this is where I always find a breakdown in the Sola Scriptura debate… but that will follow. First:
Gal 5:19-21 reads as follows: “19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
I dont know where you are going with this verse…

The fruits of the Holy Spirit are for individuals, yes. But they are also applicable to any body of Christs followers that is made up of individuals, i.e. all of them. But that was not what I was referring to anyway. My reference was to Matthew 7:15-20, but especially verse 16 and 20 “By their fruits you shall know them”. This was not referring to the fruits of the holy spirit, but to what these people DID, figs from thistles and all that. Look at all the things the Catholic Church has given us and you see the “fruits”.

As to whether the people who cry “lord, Lord!” are those who havent been “born again” I am utterly unconvinced (at least taken in the context that you intend). These are people that cast out DEMONS in Christs name. These are people that performed actual miracles in Christs name. That sounds to me like someone who would have been absolutely certain of their place with Christ. People who were “born again” and living in what they thought was the light and grace of God. Yet Jesus will turn to them and say “I never knew you”.

Being Born again I will agree is a must. We must be born again of spirit and water. That being said, if we MUST be born again of spirit and water what do you believe happens when you die without baptism?

Yes I know who the old testament Sirach is. was there something else there?

Revelations 22:16 I Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things in the churches.

Revelations 1:4 John to the seven churches in Asia.Grace be unto you and peace from him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne.

I do understand what you are talking about. The thing that you have to understand is that the Catholic Church is a name. It is just what we call the Universal Church founded by Christ.

I need to stop getting in these conversations, they never really get anywhere. People who have made up their minds have an almost impossible hurdle to understanding the truth of the other side. For me, I keep getting into this because I feel so sorry for the people that have made the choice to abandon our Lords Church for one founded by man based upon mans intelligence. The abandonment of the true presence of Christ, the abandonment of most of the sacraments, and the scattering of the body of Christ. My sorrow over this is like the sorrow one feels when a brother or sister cuts ties with the rest of the family. Its not that they are doing anything WRONG per se, but it is sad.

With Love,

FSC

 

[Bill_Pick]

Where does it say a Church will save you,I did not see that any place in any of these post,I never heard a Cathloic or A Non-cathloic say a church can save you. Where does this come from

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

Where does it say a Church will save you,I did not see that any place in any of these post,I never heard a Cathloic or A Non-cathloic say a church can save you. Where does this come from

Who is this for? If me, I apologize for mis-speaking. I dont feel or believe that.

FSC

 

[mikehere]

Hi Dave,

I’m a 47 yr old guy - Protestant to the core…married 19 1/2 yrs to my Catholic wife w/ 2 daughters being raised Catholic.

I found this site about a month ago searching the internet in utter frustration with the CC & my wife’s inability to explain or support much if any of the stuff she believes & allows our kids to be taught.

I quit attending mass w/ them about 4 mos ago now, after 23 years of going along weekly. I just could not do it anymore…obviously a long story, & you probably are not all that interested, but your post peaked my interest because one of the many things I can’t seem to understand about the CC is the teaching / belief that only Catholics really know the right way to practice religion.

A bright well read lady I met on line at this site a couple days ago sent me the official rules on this yesterday in a link to my msg box. Interesting stuff to read about…

I can’t imagine how God could send some of the wonderful Protestant people I’ve known over the years to hell because they did not switch over & become Catholics… People who dedicated their lives to serving God with gladness, people he blessed beyond compare with happiness and success and the fruits of a Christian life lived within Gods plan for them. People I knew well, long before they passed away in the knowledge and comfort of Gods infinte love for them.

I never even considered the idea that God would not be able to look past the names man attaches to the various denominations and practices within his church. Why is it so hard to consider the idea that we really are all united & within God’s one family all ready ?

I am expected to respect and accept your belief in transubstantiation, tradition as a source of doctrine, and the meaningfulness of the many other practices and symbols of the Catholic faith. (which I am able to do)

I’ve sat quietly by for years while I watched something that looks feels & seems like idol worship to me in every way I have ever been able to find to consider it in the last 23 years. But, the CC teaches my Christian faith is not acceptable to God because It’s not the one they prescribe.

I am not a Catholic basher - I agree with lots and lots of what the CC teaches & tries to accomplish in this world. It just drives me nuts though, that we Protestants are to accept Catholic teaching and practices in the spirit of ecumenical tolerance, but Catholics are taught not to accept anything but their own doctrine could possibly be acceptable to God.

I think God loves all of us … & I have expierenced living proof of this over and over in my own life, even as a Protestant.

Perplexed…Mike

 

[Leslie_Polley]

See this is where I always find a breakdown in the Sola Scriptura debate… but that will follow. First:
Gal 5:19-21 reads as follows: “19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
I dont know where you are going with this verse…

You asked me about the Fruits of the spirit. I gave them to you. You did not ask or indicate anything about the sinful nature…

The fruits of the Holy Spirit are for individuals, yes. But they are also applicable to any body of Christs followers that is made up of individuals, i.e. all of them.

What you said STILL refers to the individual…

But that was not what I was referring to anyway.

Then make yourself clean!

My reference was to Matthew 7:15-20, but especially verse 16 and 20 “By their fruits you shall know them”. This was not referring to the fruits of the holy spirit, but to what these people DID, figs from thistles and all that. Look at all the things the Catholic Church has given us and you see the “fruits”.

Have you lost your bloody mind. The Fruits of the Spirit are the Fruits of the Spirit, no matter how you twist them. In Matt.7…especially 16-17 is talking only about fasting and not to make a big deal out of it when you do so everyone know you are. Keep it between you and God…Sorry you didnt Want 15, which delt with you question before. But let go on to verse 18-20Here they are talking about makeing heaven the priority and not this earth and the things in it. I know what you refer to when you speak of “figs and thistles and all that”. They are talkling about not being able to get good fruit from bad or bad from good. Nothing to do with Matt. 7:15-20

As to whether the people who cry “lord, Lord!” are those who havent been “born again” I am utterly unconvinced (at least taken in the context that you intend). These are people that cast out DEMONS in Christs name.

You got it, because God will honors the name of Jeus

These are people that performed actual miracles in Christs name. That sounds to me like someone who would have been absolutely certain of their place with Christ.

No not necessarly,

People who were “born again” and living in what they thought was the light and grace of God. Yet Jesus will turn to them and say “I never knew you”.

Thats absolutally not what the Bible says, and I gave the the scriptures…

Being Born again I will agree is a must. We must be born again of spirit and water. That being said, if we MUST be born again of spirit and water what do you believe happens when you die without baptism?

Well the theif on the cross went to heaven, somehow I do not think he was baptized.
I however am. It is an outward sign of my accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior. I had to make the chlice, not my parents. My Salvation is not granted to me by them, however I was baptised as and infant.

Yes I know who the old testament Sirach is. was there something else there?

Yes who is it I have no idea. What book did he write

Revelations 22:16 I Jesus have sent my angel, to testify to you these things in the churches.

Lets finish it…"I am the root and the offspring of David and the bright and morning star. I don’t understand what point you are making

Revelations 1:4 John to the seven churches in Asia.Grace be unto you and peace from him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne.

I do understand what you are talking about. The thing that you have to understand is that the Catholic Church is a name. It is just what we call the Universal Church founded by Christ.

I need to stop getting in these conversations, they never really get anywhere. People who have made up their minds have an almost impossible hurdle to understanding the truth of the other side. For me, I keep getting into this because I feel so sorry for the people that have made the choice to abandon our Lords Church

There is not church that matters if you stay or leave. The church did not die on that tree, it was Christ. I Will keep Him first in may life. I will not keep a church first in my life. He is the author of this Bible, through those who wrote it. Thhis is what I stand on. Not a building, not a name. On the Trinity, Father Son and Holy Ghost.

for one founded by man based upon mans intelligence.

I do not go to a church founded by man . I go
to a church that teaches the Word of God, and it would ever stop, I,m out of there.

The abandonment of the true presence of Christ, the abandonment of most of the sacraments, and the scattering of the body of Christ. My sorrow over this is like the sorrow one feels when a brother or sister cuts ties with the rest of the family. Its not that they are doing anything WRONG per se, but it is sad.

With Love,

FSC

I am fine. My relationship with Christ is great. Do not sorrow for me. According to the word of God, I am fine. What man says does not matter. Man can error, Christ will not, and if Peter was the Way the Truth and the Life, I would be in a world of trouble, but that is who Jesus is. At best, Peter was a follower of Christ too, and I will see him in heaven.

God bless and keep you in His care. Please put your trust in Christ and not a Church, any Church. They are great as long as they know they are second to God.

 

[MrZetterlund]

What is the quickest, easiest way to prove to a Baptist that the Catholic church is the true church Jesus Christ founded, and is still the true church?

We really don’t care. lol. We settle with the fact that we all share one thing in common, and that is Jesus Christ as the foundaion of our church. We never claim to be the “true chuch.” We just preach what the holy Spirit tells us to preach.

 

[Just_Me_Andrew]

Greetings Christian brothers and sisters whether Catholic or Protestant, may the Lord be with you all:

I was surprised that only one person responded to my post on the subject of that Marian prayer from the Pope and the titles given to Mary that parallel titles given to Christ. One Christian admitted they couldn’t give Mary that kind of honor. Thanks for your honesty!.

Perhaps I could get some Catholic responses this time to the prayer of this previous Pope:

Consider once again the following comments by Pius XII and the remarks of Dr. Walter Martin both before and after:

This is the Mary of Scripture: “The handmaiden of the Lord.” This is the Mary of Scripture: “I have rejoiced in God, my Saviour.” But here is the Mary of Roman Catholic theology, from the prayer recited by Pope Pius XII at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiori in Rome on the opening of the Marian Year:

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus, and our Mother Mary… We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

"O, crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O, conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell.

"O, well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church…

“Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications and, above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne, that hymn which is sung today around your altars, You are all beautiful, O Mary. You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people.”

I want to point out that in the opening verses of the Biblical record concerning Mary, and in every verse of Scripture which is applied to her, never once is she ever removed from the category of the “handmaiden of the Lord” who rejoiced in the God of her salvation.

Yet today, after nineteen centuries, I make bold to say that the Roman Catholic Church and its theologians have unhesitatingly applied to her sacred titles alone given in the Bible to God the Father Himself and to Jesus Christ, Our Lord.11

Thus, Dr. Martin says,

I want to make it clear at the beginning that I put much emphasis upon knowing the doctrine of the Virgin Mary in Catholic theology because if any one doctrine in the Roman Catholic formula of theology would cause us, on Biblical grounds, to withdraw from fellowship with them, this would be the doctrine.12

11 Walter Martin, The Roman Catholic Church in History (Livingston, NJ: Christian Research Institute, Inc., 1960), pp. 45-46.

12 Ibid., p. 43.

Addressing the theology of the prayer Dr. Walter R. Martin said:

To the contrary, Christ is the author and finisher of faith. Mary is not the “glory and joy and honor of Christians”—Jesus Christ is our glory. In Him is the hope of glory. He is our joy. Christ is the One we honor. Yet it is clear, just from reading this prayer, that titles are conferred upon Mary which belong to God. To “convert the wicked” is the job of the Holy Spirit, who “convicts the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.” Mary does not give comfort to all Christians. That is the very reason Jesus sent the Holy Spirit—to be our “Comforter.”

In the Catholic Church the faithful say, “Our life, our sweetness and our hope, to thee we cry, poor banished children of Eve.” Even giving Mary her due right, she is not our life—Jesus Christ is our life. She is not the sweetness of our life—Jesus Christ is the sweetness of our life. Mary is not our hope because “Christ in you is the hope of glory.” From a biblical perspective, it is more than clear that the Mary of the Bible is not the Mary of Catholic theology.

Any thoughts Catholic brothers and Sisters…? Is this prayer simply “poetry” about Mary? Would you as a Catholic after reading the prayer feel comfortable praying it? Would you feel right attributing attributes that belong to Christ to Mary…when Jesus is the Mediator between God and Man? Jesus is our Redeemer and High Priest our “go between” we as Hebrews says have access behind the veil through the blood of Jesus…WHY OH WHY…do I need to call on Mary to get to the Father…will not Jesus hear me?

P.S. I know the theology that Mary because she is “closer to Christ” than we are that Jesus will hear her and grant our petitions if it is his will…However, as I have stated we have access to the Father through Jesus, he is the Mediator who goes to the Father in our behalf…why then would I need Mary to be a go between me and Jesus?

Lastly I have no problem with the Saints praying for me…I hope they are! However I feel no need to contact them or if that’s even right. Thanks for listening GBU all my Christian friends…!!

Faith is a living, daring confidence in God’s grace, so sure and certain that a man could stake his life on it a thousand times. --**Martin Luther **

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Hi Dave,

I’m a 47 yr old guy - Protestant to the core…married 19 1/2 yrs to my Catholic wife w/ 2 daughters being raised Catholic.

I found this site about a month ago searching the internet in utter frustration with the CC & my wife’s inability to explain or support much if any of the stuff she believes & allows our kids to be taught.

I quit attending mass w/ them about 4 mos ago now, after 23 years of going along weekly. I just could not do it anymore…obviously a long story, & you probably are not all that interested, but your post peaked my interest because one of the many things I can’t seem to understand about the CC is the teaching / belief that only Catholics really know the right way to practice religion.

A bright well read lady I met on line at this site a couple days ago sent me the official rules on this yesterday in a link to my msg box. Interesting stuff to read about…

I can’t imagine how God could send some of the wonderful Protestant people I’ve known over the years to hell because they did not switch over & become Catholics… People who dedicated their lives to serving God with gladness, people he blessed beyond compare with happiness and success and the fruits of a Christian life lived within Gods plan for them. People I knew well, long before they passed away in the knowledge and comfort of Gods infinte love for them.

I never even considered the idea that God would not be able to look past the names man attaches to the various denominations and practices within his church. Why is it so hard to consider the idea that we really are all united & within God’s one family all ready ?

I am expected to respect and accept your belief in transubstantiation, tradition as a source of doctrine, and the meaningfulness of the many other practices and symbols of the Catholic faith. (which I am able to do)

I’ve sat quietly by for years while I watched something that looks feels & seems like idol worship to me in every way I have ever been able to find to consider it in the last 23 years. But, the CC teaches my Christian faith is not acceptable to God because It’s not the one they prescribe.

I am not a Catholic basher - I agree with lots and lots of what the CC teaches & tries to accomplish in this world. It just drives me nuts though, that we Protestants are to accept Catholic teaching and practices in the spirit of ecumenical tolerance, but Catholics are taught not to accept anything but their own doctrine could possibly be acceptable to God.

I think God loves all of us … & I have expierenced living proof of this over and over in my own life, even as a Protestant.

Perplexed…Mike

Hi Mike; I used to be C, but for the last 30 years have not been. I to am a protestant. When I was a C, I told one of my dearest firends…because she never lets me forget it…that because she was not C she was going straight to hell. She may as well be on slide. I look back now and smile about that arrogence. A Church does not get you to heaven and NO WHERE does it say it does. The acceptence of Christ as your personal Savior does however. THey can call it the "true " church till the cows come home, but NO WHERE does it say ride the CC to heaven. God bless you and yours

 

[Leslie_Polley]

We really don’t care. lol. We settle with the fact that we all share one thing in common, and that is Jesus Christ as the foundaion of our church. We never claim to be the “true chuch.” We just preach what the holy Spirit tells us to preach.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT…Read some of these. There are several on here that have said and imply the the CC is the only true church. But I do agree with you Jesus Christ is the foundationn of the church!!! NOT Peter. If you preached always what the Holy Ghost layed on your heart to preach, there would be no conflicts.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Where does it say a Church will save you,I did not see that any place in any of these post,I never heard a Cathloic or A Non-cathloic say a church can save you. Where does this come from

From the CC. It is not in scripture. You are 100% right

 

[DavidMark]

Is it possible that Christ has returned in the “Glory of the Father” and lots of people not know about it, since “every eye” is supposed to see Him when He returns?
What about people who saw Him before, with their own eyes, and didn’t believe?
An eye is something that sees. Spiritual vision is required to believe.

If Christ wanted to turn things upside down when He came, it would be His right.
He can change water into wine; He can change the sacraments, He can establish the Kingdom on earth.

That is what happened.
Haven’t you heard about Bahá’u’lláh (The Glory of God)?
What expectations did the Jews have that prevented them from recognizing Him before?
What expectations do you have now that might prevent you from recognizing Him again?

 

[kempo1]

Hi Dave,

I’m a 47 yr old guy - Protestant to the core…married 19 1/2 yrs to my Catholic wife w/ 2 daughters being raised Catholic.

I found this site about a month ago searching the internet in utter frustration with the CC & my wife’s inability to explain or support much if any of the stuff she believes & allows our kids to be taught.

I quit attending mass w/ them about 4 mos ago now, after 23 years of going along weekly. I just could not do it anymore…obviously a long story, & you probably are not all that interested, but your post peaked my interest because one of the many things I can’t seem to understand about the CC is the teaching / belief that only Catholics really know the right way to practice religion.

A bright well read lady I met on line at this site a couple days ago sent me the official rules on this yesterday in a link to my msg box. Interesting stuff to read about…

I can’t imagine how God could send some of the wonderful Protestant people I’ve known over the years to hell because they did not switch over & become Catholics… People who dedicated their lives to serving God with gladness, people he blessed beyond compare with happiness and success and the fruits of a Christian life lived within Gods plan for them. People I knew well, long before they passed away in the knowledge and comfort of Gods infinte love for them.

I never even considered the idea that God would not be able to look past the names man attaches to the various denominations and practices within his church. Why is it so hard to consider the idea that we really are all united & within God’s one family all ready ?

I am expected to respect and accept your belief in transubstantiation, tradition as a source of doctrine, and the meaningfulness of the many other practices and symbols of the Catholic faith. (which I am able to do)

I’ve sat quietly by for years while I watched something that looks feels & seems like idol worship to me in every way I have ever been able to find to consider it in the last 23 years. But, the CC teaches my Christian faith is not acceptable to God because It’s not the one they prescribe.

I am not a Catholic basher - I agree with lots and lots of what the CC teaches & tries to accomplish in this world. It just drives me nuts though, that we Protestants are to accept Catholic teaching and practices in the spirit of ecumenical tolerance, but Catholics are taught not to accept anything but their own doctrine could possibly be acceptable to God.

I think God loves all of us … & I have expierenced living proof of this over and over in my own life, even as a Protestant.

Perplexed…Mike

 

[kempo1]

kempo1:
sorry mikehere hit the wrong button. just wanted to reply to your post. I think the problem with a lot of protestants who may visit a catholic church have been so indoctrinated on the protestant views of how catholics worship and believe, they dont enter with an open heart or mind. If you ever open up to it you will see the beauty of our faith. There is something very holy, like a quite peace that is very hard to explain to people who have never experianced it. No one has to screem things at you or run around the room, you just know Christ is present. Try this, go to your wifes church on a quite afternoon when no one is around and enter the church, kneel in a pew close to the alter of God and open your heart and mind. I believe you will return here and post something very beautiful. May God bless you and your family.

 

[kempo1]

I am fine. My relationship with Christ is great. Do not sorrow for me. According to the word of God, I am fine. What man says does not matter. Man can error, Christ will not, and if Peter was the Way the Truth and the Life, I would be in a world of trouble, but that is who Jesus is. At best, Peter was a follower of Christ too, and I will see him in heaven.

God bless and keep you in His care. Please put your trust in Christ and not a Church, any Church. They are great as long as they know they are second to God.

no catholic worships a church,but we do trust in our church to lead us. We know that the holy church is lead by the holy spirit. its not arrogance when you are convinced of truth. Yes peter was a man, but he was also one of the twelve and the one held in the highest regard by Christ. The problem is you guys have a problem with holding certain biblical figures in high regard. To us they are great warriors and heroes of the kingdom of God. No one is above our King an saviour Jesus Christ. Too many misconceptions about what we believe.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

greetings christian brothers and sisters whether catholic or protestant, may the lord be with you all:

I was surprised that only one person responded to my post on the subject of that marian prayer from the pope and the titles given to mary that parallel titles given to christ. One christian admitted they couldn’t give mary that kind of honor. Thanks for your honesty!.

Perhaps i could get some catholic responses this time to the prayer of this previous pope:

Consider once again the following comments by pius xii and the remarks of dr. Walter martin both before and after:

This is the mary of scripture: “the handmaiden of the lord.” this is the mary of scripture: “i have rejoiced in god, my saviour.” but here is the mary of roman catholic theology, from the prayer recited by pope pius xii at the basilica of santa maria maggiori in rome on the opening of the marian year:

"enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, o immaculate mother of jesus, and our mother mary… We adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which god has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you queen of the universe.

"o, crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O, conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to god and a slave of hell.

"o, well beloved of god, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, o mary, over our aching wounds; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the holy church…

“receive, o most sweet mother, our humble supplications and, above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne, that hymn which is sung today around your altars, you are all beautiful, o mary. You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people.”

i want to point out that in the opening verses of the biblical record concerning mary, and in every verse of scripture which is applied to her, never once is she ever removed from the category of the “handmaiden of the lord” who rejoiced in the god of her salvation.

Yet today, after nineteen centuries, i make bold to say that the roman catholic church and its theologians have unhesitatingly applied to her sacred titles alone given in the bible to god the father himself and to jesus christ, our lord.11

thus, dr. Martin says,

i want to make it clear at the beginning that i put much emphasis upon knowing the doctrine of the virgin mary in catholic theology because if any one doctrine in the roman catholic formula of theology would cause us, on biblical grounds, to withdraw from fellowship with them, this would be the doctrine.12

11 walter martin, the roman catholic church in history (livingston, nj: Christian research institute, inc., 1960), pp. 45-46.

12 ibid., p. 43.

Addressing the theology of the prayer dr. Walter r. Martin said:

To the contrary, christ is the author and finisher of faith. Mary is not the “glory and joy and honor of christians”—jesus christ is our glory. In him is the hope of glory. He is our joy. Christ is the one we honor. Yet it is clear, just from reading this prayer, that titles are conferred upon mary which belong to god. To “convert the wicked” is the job of the holy spirit, who “convicts the world of sin and of righteousness and of judgment.” mary does not give comfort to all christians. That is the very reason jesus sent the holy spirit—to be our “comforter.”

in the catholic church the faithful say, “our life, our sweetness and our hope, to thee we cry, poor banished children of eve.” even giving mary her due right, she is not our life—jesus christ is our life. She is not the sweetness of our life—jesus christ is the sweetness of our life. Mary is not our hope because “christ in you is the hope of glory.” from a biblical perspective, it is more than clear that the mary of the bible is not the mary of catholic theology.

Any thoughts catholic brothers and sisters…? Is this prayer simply “poetry” about mary? Would you as a catholic after reading the prayer feel comfortable praying it? Would you feel right attributing attributes that belong to christ to mary…when jesus is the mediator between god and man? Jesus is our redeemer and high priest our “go between” we as hebrews says have access behind the veil through the blood of jesus…why oh why…do i need to call on mary to get to the father…will not jesus hear me?

P.s. I know the theology that mary because she is “closer to christ” than we are that jesus will hear her and grant our petitions if it is his will…however, as i have stated we have access to the father through jesus, he is the mediator who goes to the father in our behalf…why then would i need mary to be a go between me and jesus?

Lastly i have no problem with the saints praying for me…i hope they are! However i feel no need to contact them or if that’s even right. Thanks for listening gbu all my christian friends…!!

Faith is a living, daring confidence in god’s grace, so sure and certain that a man could stake his life on it a thousand times. --**martin luther **

amen amen amen !!!

 

[DavidMark]

Who was the first person in the Baptist church after Jesus Christ? (Assuming here he’s claiming that the Baptists are the only true church)
When did that happen? When was his church founded?

Baptism was practiced even before John the Baptist.

But this “sacrament” is not practiced as a ritual by Baha’is; (even though i often take two baths a day!) --the symbolism of it is understood.

Dictated in 1903:
But at present in Asia, the Catholics and the Orthodox Church plunge newly born children into water mixed with olive oil, and many of them become ill from the shock; at the time of baptism they struggle and become agitated. In other places, the clergy sprinkle the water of baptism on the forehead. But neither from the first form nor from the second do the children derive any spiritual benefit. Then what result is obtained from this form? Other peoples are amazed and wonder why the infant is plunged into the water, since this is neither the cause of the spiritual awakening of the child, nor of its faith or conversion, but it is only a custom which is followed. In the time of John the Baptist it was not so; no, at first John used to exhort the people, and to guide them to repentance from sin, and to fill them with the desire to await the manifestation of Christ.(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 94)

 

[Bill_Pick]

Baptism was practiced even before John the Baptist.

But this “sacrament” is not practiced as a ritual by Baha’is; (even though i often take two baths a day!) --the symbolism of it is understood.

Dictated in 1903:
But at present in Asia, the Catholics and the Orthodox Church plunge newly born children into water mixed with olive oil, and many of them become ill from the shock; at the time of baptism they struggle and become agitated. In other places, the clergy sprinkle the water of baptism on the forehead. But neither from the first form nor from the second do the children derive any spiritual benefit. Then what result is obtained from this form? Other peoples are amazed and wonder why the infant is plunged into the water, since this is neither the cause of the spiritual awakening of the child, nor of its faith or conversion, but it is only a custom which is followed. In the time of John the Baptist it was not so; no, at first John used to exhort the people, and to guide them to repentance from sin, and to fill them with the desire to await the manifestation of Christ.(Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 94)

Anabaptist in 1531 And the Baptist in 1609 and the one Church is the Cathloic 33ad

 

[yankee_drifter]

What is the quickest, easiest way to prove to a Baptist that the Catholic church is the true church Jesus Christ founded, and is still the true church?

Can’t be done! Baptists have a rich and ancient history. They adhere to the apostolic teachings. They are true Biblical Christians. They existed in many small groups long before Constantine legalized Christianity.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Can’t be done! Baptists have a rich and ancient history. They adhere to the apostolic teachings. They are true Biblical Christians. They existed in many small groups long before Constantine legalized Christianity.

Not true tha Baptist did not get here until about 1500 or 1600 well after Constantine start the CC