Prove it!

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How 'bout this:

Irenaeus wrote:

“He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age” (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus wrote:

“Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them” (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen wrote:

“Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous” (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

“The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage wrote:

“As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born” (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

“If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another” (ibid., 64:5).

Gregory of Nazianz wrote:

“Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!” (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

“‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly *, if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated” (ibid., 40:28).

John Chrysostom wrote:

“You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members” (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).

source: from poster inkaneer*​

As I said, no REAL evidence from the New Testament that the early (and I guess I must add - 1st century church) practiced infant baptism. Doesn’t the Bible say repent and be baptised? Babies can’t repent.
 
Yes, you get 40,000 different understandings of Scripture, Dokimas. 40,000. [SIGN1]That’s obscene.[/SIGN1]
Superficially you may be correct, however ALL concervative Christians have core beliefs.
 
Dokimas;6046730:
We call our humble leader the *Servus Servorum Dei *

It means “the Servant of the Servants of God”. I mean, really, how much lowlier can you get with that title?​

So do I and I also call Him Jesus, Savior, Lord of lords, King of kings, Prince of Peace, Lamb of God, etc.
 
Why would that matter? Is there something in your doctrines that say something must be stated in the epistles to be believed?

If something is mentioned in the OT, but not in the epistles, do you believe it?
What about if it’s in the Gospels, but not in the epistles?
If Mary was as you believe and you say the ‘early’ church believed what you believe, then yes they’d mention it in the epistles. You make it quite central to your beliefs.
 
Why would that matter? Is there something in your doctrines that say something must be stated in the epistles to be believed?

If something is mentioned in the OT, but not in the epistles, do you believe it?
What about if it’s in the Gospels, but not in the epistles?
I’ve seen the explanations from the OT and Gospels and IMO they are out of context at best, not matching up with the rest of Scripture.
 
How can anyone take you seriously, Dokimas, when you do the same? You judge us for admonishing Leslie, yet here you are admonishing us! :sad_yes:

QUOTE]​

Have your childish way. So be it.​

Don’t take me seriously; matters not to me. If you choose to accuse someone you’re doing then you’re fulfilling Scripture.
 
I don’t reject the CC. I do disagree with some of its teachings. A huge difference.
 
Superficially you may be correct, however ALL concervative Christians have core beliefs.
Really, Dokimas? And what are these “hard core beliefs” and [SIGN]how do you know that these are essentials and others are secondary?[/SIGN] Is it because of your fallible pastor’s determination?

Because unless you can show me where in the Bible it says: these are the “hard core beliefs” you must believe to be a Christian (please tell us chapter and verse!), then you are using a man-made, non-authoritative, fallible tradition to determine what’s a hard core belief.
 
As I said, no REAL evidence from the New Testament that the early (and I guess I must add - 1st century church) practiced infant baptism.
Do you have any REAL evidence that the, say 2nd century church, did not practice infant baptisms? Please provide sources, okay?
 
As I said, no REAL evidence from the New Testament that the early (and I guess I must add - 1st century church) practiced infant baptism. Doesn’t the Bible say repent and be baptised? Babies can’t repent.
Genesis 17
1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2And I will **make my covenant **between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee **and thy seed **after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

23And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

27And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

Genesis 21:4
4And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.

Colossians 2
11In whom also **ye are circumcised with the circumcision **made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Acts 16:15 (King James Version)

15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

1 Corinthians 1:16 And I** baptized also the household of Stephanas**: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Acts 2:

38
Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39
For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”
 
Do you have any REAL evidence that the, say 2nd century church, did not practice infant baptisms? Please provide sources, okay?
I have none and what the 2nd century church believed in not relevant if it’s different from the church of Paul, Peter, John, James, etc.
 
I have none and what the 2nd century church believed in not relevant if it’s different from the church of Paul, Peter, John, James, etc.
Exactly. You have none.

[SIGN1]That speaks volumes.[/SIGN1] Volumes.

Your church, whatever one of those 40,000 denominations, was started by some fallible man who separated from whatever branch separated from whatever branch which separated from the church of Peter, Paul, James, and John. :eek:
 
Genesis 17
1And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2And I will **make my covenant **between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

7And I will establish my covenant between me and thee **and thy seed **after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

23And Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all that were born in his house, and all that were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s house; and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the selfsame day, as God had said unto him.

27And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

Genesis 21:4
4And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.

Colossians 2
11In whom also **ye are circumcised with the circumcision **made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Acts 16:15 (King James Version)

15And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

1 Corinthians 1:16 And I** baptized also the household of Stephanas**: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Acts 2:

38
Peter (said) to them, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39
For the promise is made to you and to your children and to all those far off, whomever the Lord our God will call.”
My household have been baptised all of us as teenagers or older. To believe infants were baptised using the NT verses you did would mean you have proof that the families mention had babies at the time. I think caution must be made to pull understanding that is not present.
 
Matthew 28: 18ff

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 “teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.​

Notice the progression of the ‘Great Commission.’​

Infants can’t learn doctrine thus can’t be disciples, can they?
 
My household have been baptised all of us as teenagers or older. To believe infants were baptised using the NT verses you did would mean you have proof that the families mention had babies at the time. I think caution must be made to pull understanding that is not present.
The Church baptizes babies because baptism is the new circumcision of the New Covenant (Col. 2:11-12), just as the circumcision of eight-day old babies was the sign of the Old Covenant (Gen. 17:12; Lev. 12:3). In Acts 2:39, Peter says baptism is for children as well as adults. The word used for children (“teknon”) means infants, which is proved by Acts 21:21 in reference to eight-day old infants. We see in Acts 10:47-48; 16:15,33 and 1 Cor. 1:16 that entire households were baptized. Household (“oikos”) included infants and children. There is nothing in the Bible about a “believer’s baptism.” It would have been unthinkable from a Jewish perspective to exclude children from God’s covenant kingdom. See also in Matt. 9:2, Mark 2:3-5, Matt. 8:5-13, Luke 6:10, Mark 9:22-25 where people are healed based on another person’s faith (just as babies are washed away of sin based on their parents’ faith).
 
Exactly. You have none.

[SIGN1]That speaks volumes.[/SIGN1] Volumes.

Your church, whatever one of those 40,000 denominations, was started by some fallible man who separated from whatever branch separated from whatever branch which separated from the church of Peter, Paul, James, and John. :eek:
At least I’m not making up something to prove my ‘truth’.
 
My household have been baptised all of us as teenagers or older. To believe infants were baptised using the NT verses you did would mean you have proof that the families mention had babies at the time. I think caution must be made to pull understanding that is not present.
We believe that we can do nothing to earn our salvation. And this is proven quite clearly by our baptizing of infants. They do absolutely nothing to received God’s free gift of salvation and grace!
 
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