Prove it!

[Dokimas]

I usually find that when people take discussions here as personal attacks they have come to an impasse.

You understand the contradiction in your Christian systemology after being on this thread and now are projecting that into some imaginary attack on you.

No one is attacking you. Just questioning you and getting you to understand that your personal interpretation is…fallible…and by definition, “fallible” means you’re going to be wrong.

Now, since you said you’re secure in the choices you’ve made…let’s continue the discussion.

Where are the Bible verses that tell us what’s an essential doctrine and what’s secondary? Chapter and verse, please!

There is an impass here. I don’t take it personally, nor as a personal attack but an attack on beliefs that are different from the CC. As I’ve said I’m secure in myself as impertect as I am and as my understanding may be.​

I understand that some of your systemology seems very much in contradiction with the Bible.​

I understand that some of your understanding, while widely held, don’t match up with the Bible, IMO.

 

[JustaServant]

Maybe this illustration will help:
Reading thru a magazine once I came upon an interesting collection of photos. The first picture is of a tiny infant wearing a pair of oversized adult bluejeans. One could hardly see the baby. The next photos showed every year for the next fifteen years. At the age of fifteen the child has grown into his bluejeans.
That’s Baptism.
You grow into who you are. Baptism is not my announcment that I have enough faith to recieve it. It is finally recieving by faith what was freely given to me in Baptism.
The visible sign in Holy Baptism is water. The Sacrament of Baptism is initiated by God, not man. Man’s behaviour cannot invalidate it. Baptism is the ultimate expression of His Grace.
Under the Old Covenant God commanded every male child to be circumcised the eighth day after birth (Lev. 12:3). Under New Covenant Baptism, which takes the place of the Old Covenant circumcision, God is willing to receive children into His new and better Covenant…
Christ Himself showed his special care and love to children (Mk. 10:16). He took notice of those mothers who had brought their children to Him and said “Suffer little children and forbid them not, to come unto me, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 19:14).

 

[Dokimas]

I usually find that when people take discussions here as personal attacks they have come to an impasse.

You understand the contradiction in your Christian systemology after being on this thread and now are projecting that into some imaginary attack on you.

No one is attacking you. Just questioning you and getting you to understand that your personal interpretation is…fallible…and by definition, “fallible” means you’re going to be wrong.

Now, since you said you’re secure in the choices you’ve made…let’s continue the discussion.

Where are the Bible verses that tell us what’s an essential doctrine and what’s secondary? Chapter and verse, please!

What I’d do with what someone else teaching (ie leave their church) has nothing to do with the Truth of God. So for you to ‘harp’ on this is attacking what you don’t know about. Stick to attacking my understanding of specific Bible teachings. Then we have real evidence to deal with and not you experience with other people.

 

[Dokimas]

Christ Himself showed his special care and love to children (Mk. 10:16). He took notice of those mothers who had brought their children to Him and said “Suffer little children and forbid them not, to come unto me, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven” (Matt. 19:14).

Jesus loves children so much to you think He’d leave the security of their souls up to fallible parents?​

How is Matthew 19:14 about infants or baptism?

 

[JustaServant]

Jesus loves children so much to you think He’d leave the security of their souls up to fallible parents?

Belief is essential to salvation, but why make a promise to us “and our children” if the promise to our children was completely separate from the promise to us and completely dependent upon their own actions without any effect from the faith of their parents. 1 Corinthians 7 shows that our faith does affect our children.

Children are not born into a vacuum, they are deeply connected with their parents more than even most parents realize.

 

[Dokimas]

Belief is essential to salvation, but why make a promise to us “and our children” if the promise to our children was completely separate from the promise to us and completely dependent upon their own actions without any effect from the faith of their parents. 1 Corinthians 7 shows that our faith does affect our children.

Children are not born into a vacuum, they are deeply connected with their parents more than even most parents realize.

Promises to children are not separate from their parents; that’s why they must be baptized as believers as their parents.

 

[Robert_Michael]

HISTORY!!!

:yup:

 

[Dokimas]

For us ignorant ones, could you please explain, Robert?​

I’m sure you know history can be misread, misunderstood, misrepresented, etc. There are those how say there is no true historical record of Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

Can a person be a Christian and believe Jesus in not God?​

Can a person be a Christian and believe Jesus did not die and was not raised from the dead?​

Can a person be a Christian and not believe in personal sin?​

Does a person have to speak in tongues to get to Heaven?​

If that is a teaching in error, if a person believe all must speak in tongues to go to Heaven, are they definately not Christian?

Ah. So I assume these are what you call the “hard core” beliefs. Thank you for listing them…but you have not given us any verses that show us this is what God has said are “hard core beliefs”.

It’s peculiar to me that you’ve left out sooo many other “essentials”.

Does a Christian have to believe in One God? What about God as Father? What about the virgin birth? What about the existence of an eternal soul? What about God creating everything?

You see, Dokimas, there is no list of “hard core” beliefs that Scripture has given us. What you have given is your own fallible, man-made, non-authoritative interpretation of what’s an essential.

Very faulty thinking, in my opinion!

 

[PRmerger]

There is an impass here. I don’t take it personally, nor as a personal attack but an attack on beliefs that are different from the CC. As I’ve said I’m secure in myself as impertect as I am and as my understanding may be.​

I understand that some of your systemology seems very much in contradiction with the Bible.​

I understand that some of your understanding, while widely held, don’t match up with the Bible, IMO.

There is no “attack” on anyone’s beliefs here. That is against forum rules and if you perceive that someone is breaking the rules I suggest you report it to the Moderator.

Our discussion is a 2-way street: you present your objections to my systemology and I present my objections to yours. I have taken no offense whatsoever to your questions, because I know that your objections are ill-informed and quite defensible.

Now, when I question yours, I presume you have an apologia as well. I’d like to hear it and discuss.

That’s what this forum is all about!

So we’re now talking about “essentials” and secondary beliefs. Let’s discuss!

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus loves children so much to you think He’d leave the security of their souls up to fallible parents?​

How is Matthew 19:14 about infants or baptism?

Correct! He did leave the security of their souls to the infallible Church, however!

 

[PRmerger]

-I am being quite restrained not commenting about ‘blind followers’. I don’t want to be unkind nor incorrect

Um…Dokimas? You’re the only one who’s mentioned anything about anyone being “blind”. What are you talking about being “restrained” about that?

 

[Dokimas]

Um…Dokimas? You’re the only one who’s mentioned anything about anyone being “blind”. What are you talking about being “restrained” about that?

I’ll hold my tongue on this one.

 

[Dokimas]

Ah. So I assume these are what you call the “hard core” beliefs. Thank you for listing them…but you have not given us any verses that show us this is what God has said are “hard core beliefs”.

It’s peculiar to me that you’ve left out sooo many other “essentials”.

Does a Christian have to believe in One God? What about God as Father? What about the virgin birth? What about the existence of an eternal soul? What about God creating everything?

You see, Dokimas, there is no list of “hard core” beliefs that Scripture has given us. What you have given is your own fallible, man-made, non-authoritative interpretation of what’s an essential.

Very faulty thinking, in my opinion!

That’s not the opinion I was looking for. I was asking you for your answers to my questions. While you’re at it, why not give an answer to your questions?​

I’m not sure if those you mention are specifically ‘hard core’ beliefs. However if you put them in the negative as I did, maybe some they are … like: I wonder about a person who would say, ‘God is NOT One.’

 

[Dokimas]

IMO, the term ‘brainwashed’ makes no sense. I want my mind cleaned by the Word of God as the Holy Spirit uses its cleansing power.​

I’d use the term, blinded. I’m sure you think I’m blinded by my opinion because it is different that what the CC teachen on some important issues (important to you and your church).

 

[Dokimas]

There is no “attack” on anyone’s beliefs here. That is against forum rules and if you perceive that someone is breaking the rules I suggest you report it to the Moderator.

Our discussion is a 2-way street: you present your objections to my systemology and I present my objections to yours. I have taken no offense whatsoever to your questions, because I know that your objections are ill-informed and quite defensible.

Now, when I question yours, I presume you have an apologia as well. I’d like to hear it and discuss.

That’s what this forum is all about!

So we’re now talking about “essentials” and secondary beliefs. Let’s discuss!

I would not complain to any moderator. I can handle myself, even though you may think I’m doing it poorly. I was just bringing to your attention that that’s what was happening.​

When someone tells me that I’d leave a church because a pastor doesn’t teach something correctly is not discussing my beliefs but my practice. Very different from showing me from the Bible where my understanding may be incorrect.

 

[PRmerger]

That’s not the opinion I was looking for. I was asking you for your answers to my questions. While you’re at it, why not give an answer to your questions?​

I’m not sure if those you mention are specifically ‘hard core’ beliefs. However if you put them in the negative as I did, maybe some they are … like: I wonder about a person who would say, ‘God is NOT One.’

Well, first, since *you *were the one who brought up the term “core beliefs”, way back in post #219

Superficially you may be correct, however ALL concervative Christians have core beliefs.

I’d like to know what the Bible says about these “core beliefs”.

What are these “core beliefs”, and how do you know that?

I’m not sure why you’re not answering my question that I’ve asked quite pointedly. Again, it speaks to the fact that you realize you have no Scriptural source for something you’ve just professed.

But, I could be wrong. Please show me! Again, not a listing of what you consider essentials, but a verse that says how we know what these “core beliefs” are. Is John 2:12essential? What about Malachi 1:11? 1 Peter 3:20? And, how do we know?

 

[PRmerger]

You know, I am quite prescient that Dokimas is not going to answer the question of how he knows what these “core beliefs” are from Scripture.

Because[SIGN] there are no verses in Scripture that tell us what these “core beliefs” are![/SIGN]

Heck, I’ve been asking this question on this forum for so long and Protestants can’t even agree on what these “core beliefs” are, let alone provide Scriptural support for their claim!

Some Protestants claim that as long as they believe in these “core beliefs”, the other disagreements are irrelevant. Here’s the irony: * They can’t even agree on what these “core beliefs”* are, let alone agree on the doctrines concerning these “core beliefs”!

Here’s just a few of the many different answers I’ve gotten from Protestants on this:

1. Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
2. Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
3. Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
4. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
5. There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)
6. God exists as a Trinity of persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (1 John 5:7)
7. Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary (nature of incarnation)
8. Jesus is the only way to God the Father (John 14:6)."

But, wait!! Here’s another completely different list of essentials!

Those essentials were written by Matt Slick of CARM, the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. The CARM web site states that CARN exists to defend the Christian faith by analyzing religions such as Islam, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Roman Catholicism, Universalism, Wicca, etc., and comparing them to the Bible. They give (at least) these scriptural references. Certainly these essentials are lacking per Catholic dogma.

Primary Essentials:

Diety of Christ – John 8:24, John 8:58 + Exodus 3:14.
Salvation by Grace – Gal 5:4, Eph 2:8-9
Resurrection of Christ – 1 Cor 15:14, 1 Cor 15:17
Gospel – Gal 1:8-9, 1 Cor 15:1-4
Monotheism – Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6,8, Exodus 20:3-6

Secondary Essentials:

Salvation – John 14:6
Trinity – John 3:16, John 5:26, 1 John 4:10, John 14:26, 15:26, Isaiah 44:24, Gal 3:13, Rom 15:16
Incarnation through Virgin Birth – Matt 1:23, John 8:24

 

[guanophore]

Firstly, being catholic means you can be saved by going through specific sacraments & procedures that has been systematically laid out.

Can you please explain how these procedures work? what is the system that has been laid out?

If that does not = being saved, why do you even want to be a catholic?

The Catholic Church is that Church founded by Christ, upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast.

Secondly, calling it Roman Catholics does not mean I do not refer to the Catholics, just like I call American Indians when referring to the Indians in America.

Catholicism is not “Roman”.

Thirdly, since you admit that the chosen has nothing to do with external affiliation, why even bother being a catholic? You could well be a protestant.

Indeed, I was for many years. I have since learned that the Catholic Church holds the fullness of God’s revelation of Himself to men.

Fourthly, no one EXPECTS what God is to say. Just like I didn’t expect you to spout such rubbish and be proud of it. What is man to EXPECT from the creator? NOTHING!

We can expect that He will do what He says. He said He would build His Church. He said He would lead her into all Truth.

What do I think? You really wouldn’t want to know.

Oh, but I do! Try not to break any forum rules, though, ok?

 

[guanophore]

Oh my you and I have nothing to discuss if you do not believe that the Bible is the not inspired Word of the Holy Spirit and Is infallible. I will not discuss things with an unarmed man, or boy or girl or woman…pick one. You believe it All or through it away. I believe it all.

Infallibility is a gift that can only be enjoyed by persons. It require the ability to act, take responsibility, make errors, and have consequences. the Holy Scripture does not have the qualities of a person. Scripture is inspired,and inerrant, but it does not make decisions.

I am sorry you got such a bad Catholic education as a youngster. If it is any consolation, I know how you feel.