Prove to me that ND is a Catholic institution

[Rach620]

I am very glad to hear that, Rach620. Are you an ND student or grad yourself?

Just graduated yesterday. BA, Political Science & Theology.

 

[Joannm]

Lepanto,

• The Theology and Philosophy Departments are thriving, even though they are losing a number of solid teaching faculty due to retirement (Ralph McInerny, Alasdair MacIntyre, etc.). A theology major myself, I went to the seniors’ celebration yesterday, which Bishop D’Arcy annually attends and addresses. He told us yesterday that he firmly believes that Notre Dame’s theology department is one of the best in the country for its depth and breadth and commitment of students and faculty. I am not at all one to disagree.
• The Center for Ethics and Culture, led by Professor David Solomon, is a great intellectual resource for students and faculty, and puts on a great Fall conference every year. The topics have ranged from “The Culture of Life” to “The Family” to “Pope Benedict XVI & The Dialogue of Cultures”. It was through many of their sponsored events that I was introduced to the Catholic intellectual life.
• …

I agree with what you write. I am studying for my MA at ND in Theology (specifically in Liturgical Studies). I also have an MA and D.Min, from a Catholic major seminary and I can attest to the excellence of the Theology department at ND. A few of my profs at the seminary are graduates of ND. I have had some of the finest professors in the disipline during my summers at ND. Speaking of Conferences, the annual Liturgical Conference is another great annual event. This year the conference focuses on St. Paul. The people I know in the MA program are among some of the finest people I have met and all are involved heavily in parish or diocesan ministry. Many are priests, brothers and sisters from all over the world. One of our recently ordainded diocesan priests is an ND graduate and had begun studies in liturgy which he hopes to continue. ND’s ECHO Graduate/internship program for young people seeking to work in catechetical ministry attracts some of the most talented young people in the country and some of them have considered seeking ordination or to enter religious life. The Alliance for Catholic Education offers MA degrees for Catholic school teachers who spend the school year working in Cathoic schools in underprivlidged areas and summer at ND and equips young teachers to bring excellence in Catholic education to schools throughout the country. These young people know that there is no money in working for the Church, they do it for love of God…something their ND Graduate education instills in them, and many of them have attended ND as undergrads as well.

I am very proud to be part of the ND family and as this is my final summer there (taking comps at the end of July) I will greatly miss it…although I expect I will be back auditing courses or attending conferences.

 

[Havard]

Just graduated yesterday. BA, Political Science & Theology.

Congratulations! :clapping:

 

[dixieagle]

Lepanto, Honestly, the situation at ND is incredibly complex. If you are unaffiliated with and unfamiliar with the history and all of the issues in the many debates which have been going on and continue to go on there, then having this discussion is just going to get a little difficult. But I’ll try.

Rach,

I want to say that I have read many of your posts. You are clearly an incredibly intelligent and committed Catholic.

As a Boston College alum (of 35 years ago!) I have also often been disillusioned at some of the choices made by the school administration, faculty and students. But, I have also seen the service to the poor and marginalized that is a hallmark of great Catholic universities. I have seen something else that is most troubling, that reflects what I saw in the larger Catholic population during the last 4 decades, particularly in my home state of Massachusetts.

It seems that, once Catholics achieved a certain level of acceptance, and when most anti-Catholicism had been quelled, there was a real reluctance to give up that newfound political and social status. Certain hot-button political issues (civil rights, anti-war) fell in line with Catholic social teaching, and it was considered quite trendy to be in the front lines of those battles; Catholic universities often led the way. But, then along came the inconvenient issue of abortion; committed pro-lifers were portrayed as “nuts” by the pro-abortion camp, it was a dicey issue politically, and Catholics weren’t so quick to get on board (“I’m personally opposed, but who am I to impose my point of view?”) God forbid that enlightened Catholic universities should in any way seem backwards, or “anti-woman”, so administration, faculty and students threw themselves full force into service projects and social issues…but few spoke up strongly on the life issues.

So many have been caught up in the absurd Obamamania that has swept the country. Certainly, there are some good things that have been proposed, but his complete intransigence on life issues (despite his smooth and pretty rhetoric) is frightening. I wanted to say “Wake up!” to those cheering multitudes at Notre Dame who so want to be in the “in crowd.”

Thank God for those who have refused to give up, and have been a thorn in the sides of those who would rather not think about the millions of unborn children who have died. Thank God for the pro-life students and faculty (and there are many) at Notre Dame and (to a lesser extent, sadly) at Boston College. They have recently replaced crucifixes on the walls at B.C.; perhaps that is one small sign of something good happening. Likewise, the many students at Notre Dame who took a stand for life are a beacon of hope.

It is, indeed, universities such as Notre Dame and Boston College whose successful and, often, prominent graduates must take the lead in changing hearts and minds. Let’s hope that this recent controversy causes some examination of conscience and that the encouraging shift towards pro-life sentiments nationally takes root in Catholic hearts and minds, as well.

 

[JPUSC]

And I don’t want to read about football nonsense.

ND sucks at football anyway.

 

[Havard]

ND sucks at football anyway.

At a time when a lot of alums are heartbroken over this scandal, is this kind of response really necessary?

 

[bookgirl32]

At a time when a lot of alums are heartbroken over this scandal, is this kind of response really necessary?

I don’t think a little humor hurts anything, especially at times like these. At least I think that’s what he was going for.

 

[Havard]

I don’t think a little humor hurts anything, especially at times like these. At least I think that’s what he was going for.

Considering how many college football fans hate Notre Dame for the special attention it gets, despite it’s not winning a bowl game in a decade, it’s usually more of a spiteful mantra than a joke. If the poster is unaware of that, it’s less objectional, but it’s still crass to say.

 

[bookgirl32]

Considering how many college football fans hate Notre Dame for the special attention it gets, despite it’s not winning a bowl game in a decade, it’s usually more of a spiteful mantra than a joke. If the poster is unaware of that, it’s less objectional, but it’s still crass to say.

Just trying to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Havard]

I appreciate that. And I don’t want to get off-topic. As an alum myself, this whole experience is so upsetting, and it’s further exacerbated by all sorts of ND-bashing by faithful Catholics here, who probably mean well, but are out for blood. What I would really like to see is more thoughtful, constructive ideas on how to heal the wounds of this scandal.

 

[Lepanto]

As an alum myself, this whole experience is so upsetting

I’m glad that I’m not an alum of ND, either because I would be forever embarrassed to say that I went to ND, or because there would be a danger that sentimentality and school “pride” might cloud my judgment. I have no loyalty to ND so I can be impartial and call them as I see them. I went to an anti-Catholic public university, instead of an anti-Catholic “Catholic” university. The anti-Catholics there didn’t wear Roman collars.

In practice, this means that I have an extremely poor opinion of ND and I would never recommend to anybody to go to school there (this includes Georgetown, BC, and other Judas schools). Just as some schools are called “historically” black, what we’re talking about here are schools that are “historically” Catholic, but not necessarily so any more.

I’m not yet convinced that ND is a Catholic institution. Fortunately, there are still some good Catholic schools which try to live up to Ex Corde Ecclesia.

 

[Havard]

Lepanto, I would concede your point if supporters of ND were defending the errors of the Notre Dame community, but I have not seen that at all here on CAF.

All we are doing is pointing out the signs of goodness and orthodoxy on campus, and asking for the prayers that ND will come around. And the ND detractors will hear none of it. From my perspective, it is their minds which are made up, because of prejudice… not the other way around.

 

[Catholic20064]

We mustn’t be driven by sentimentality (I’m not saying that you are), but I’d like to see some facts and figures. Here’s a good one: how many of the thousands within the ND student body enter the seminary or convent each year? I think that Tom Monaghan was right. Most American “Catholic” universities are beyond hope. Time to start from scratch, as at Ave Maria University.

Nice talk, but Fr. Miscamble’s speech from a protest rally hardly is representative of ND. Unfortunately, he is not the official voice of ND.

He’s not the official voice, but he does represent a strong minority here. I know that many of our priests in the local diocese are a product of Notre Dame including many of the younger ones. There is also a high conversion rate among non-Catholics at Notre Dame. Every year Notre Dame leads the diocese in the number of converts to Catholicism among parishes in our diocese. Almost all of the students attend mass every week and Eucharistic Adoration is strongly supported on campus. I was unhappy with the strong applause for Obama at graduation, but I do hope we can get beyond this. Father Jenkins won’t be in charge forever.

 

[dixieagle]

He’s not the official voice, but he does represent a strong minority here. I know that many of our priests in the local diocese are a product of Notre Dame including many of the younger ones. There is also a high conversion rate among non-Catholics at Notre Dame. Every year Notre Dame leads the diocese in the number of converts to Catholicism among parishes in our diocese. Almost all of the students attend mass every week and Eucharistic Adoration is strongly supported on campus. I was unhappy with the strong applause for Obama at graduation, but I do hope we can get beyond this. Father Jenkins won’t be in charge forever.

I know many ND grads and current students, as some of the top students from our Catholic high school here (deep South) attend. These students and their families represent the very best of Catholicism in this country; they are strong, committed Catholics, pro-life, outstanding academically, and have generally gone on to become physicians, lawyers, and Ph.D.s. Several of their parents are alums who belong to Legatus, the organization of Catholic CEOs and business leaders, and are well-positioned to influence others. They clearly found their niche at Notre Dame with other similarly outstanding Catholics who are, in every way, above reproach.

Though much of what has recently happened has been extremely disappointing, there is plenty of good that is being done at Notre Dame; there would have to be, if it is producing the kinds of alums I know.

 

[OriginalJS]

I don’t buy this at all. This is sophistry. There may not be a direct reporting relationship to any bishop (and yet the Congregation of the Holy Cross is headquartered in Rome), but any institution that claims to be Catholic is not above the teachings of the Church.

I agree. With all due respect, arguments that ND is not a Catholic University are sophistry, and not sophisticated at that. I am reminded of those circular semantic arguments in high school and first or second year of college.

 

[Havard]

My semantic quip would have been sophistry if it was intended to be a full response. It wasn’t. It was a sarcastic statement, meant to highlight the point that the issue is NOT answered in a brief blurb. I’m sorry that I wasn’t more clear about that.

 

[Rach620]

It is, indeed, universities such as Notre Dame and Boston College whose successful and, often, prominent graduates must take the lead in changing hearts and minds. Let’s hope that this recent controversy causes some examination of conscience and that the encouraging shift towards pro-life sentiments nationally takes root in Catholic hearts and minds, as well.

Dixieagle, I think that your whole post was spot-on, and thank you for your kind words.

It is a matter of culture, IMO–both the Catholic culture that should be present at a University such as Notre Dame, and the larger cultural landscape in which ND (and BC, for example) finds itself. An example to illustrate this: A book called Notre Dame vs. the Ku Klux Klan retells the story of how students and faculty at Notre Dame fought off Klansmen who attempted to overrun the campus during the 1920s and 1930s. Indiana has not always been a friendly place to the Catholic settlers at Notre Dame, and students then were very truly fighting against the culture to even continue to exist as a community here.

Now, obviously, there are no such issues. And as you said, the intellectual/cultural landscape has changed such that Notre Dame is able to be intellectually ‘cool’–and it desperately wants to be. It is striving to become a ‘great modern research university,’ with all that this entails. Gaining entrance to prestigious clubs (as Bishop D’Arcy observed, ND has sought “prestige over truth”) such as the Association of American Universities, requires that ND not dwell so much on those counter-cultural Catholic ‘details’ such as a commitment to human life, when that stands in the way of being at the forefront of academic research.

Some of the priorities here are out of whack, to put it simply, but the good news in all of this is that truly Catholic priorities DO exist when the Administration explains what its priorities are. Being a center for Catholic intellectual life, “having a predominant number of Catholic faculty,” having a thriving liberal arts college where theology and philosophy are central ALL remain on Fr. Jenkins’ list of goals for ND moving forward. The question is just where in line these goals fall, when compared to increasing our research stature and college ranking and placement among ‘peer institutions’. There is a lot of tension here, but plenty of people I know here on the faculty are saying that they DO see good coming from all of this mess.

I’m glad that I’m not an alum of ND, either because I would be forever embarrassed to say that I went to ND, or because there would be a danger that sentimentality and school “pride” might cloud my judgment. I have no loyalty to ND so I can be impartial and call them as I see them. I went to an anti-Catholic public university, instead of an anti-Catholic “Catholic” university. The anti-Catholics there didn’t wear Roman collars.

In practice, this means that I have an extremely poor opinion of ND and I would never recommend to anybody to go to school there (this includes Georgetown, BC, and other Judas schools). Just as some schools are called “historically” black, what we’re talking about here are schools that are “historically” Catholic, but not necessarily so any more.

I’m not yet convinced that ND is a Catholic institution. Fortunately, there are still some good Catholic schools which try to live up to Ex Corde Ecclesia.

Notre Dame is a big university. It has many facets, many different people, and offers many different experiences to those who come here. I had a great experience here, which I’ve talked about many times before on this forum, and I know many others who feel the same way. I believe that one can receive an academically rigorous and orthodox Catholic education here. Depending on the student I would probably recommend it to others.

Personally, when I was looking for colleges 4-5 years ago, I read tons of stuff online about the mandatum and Ex Corde and sought out a good Catholic college. I ended up at ND because honestly, Steubenville, Ave Maria, Christendom, etc. just haven’t matured as universities yet. I know people who do well at each of these, but the academic level isn’t quite there yet (and this can mean a lot for someone considering graduate studies, professional school, etc.). Maybe when my children are looking for colleges, but right now I have incredible reservations about recommending that a college senior attend Wyoming Catholic College or Ave Maria in Florida over an excellent, established school such as ND or BC or St. Louis Univ. or Creighton. And I don’t believe that in this I am moved by sentimentality…

 

[Rach620]

Lepanto, I would concede your point if supporters of ND were defending the errors of the Notre Dame community, but I have not seen that at all here on CAF.

All we are doing is pointing out the signs of goodness and orthodoxy on campus, and asking for the prayers that ND will come around. And the ND detractors will hear none of it. From my perspective, it is their minds which are made up, because of prejudice… not the other way around.

Well said.

A bit of a sidenote, but I find that many who are most pessimistic about ND after this Obama mess weren’t even optimistic about it beforehand. Those of us who love ND were so deeply and personally hurt by the invitation and honor BECAUSE we ourselves love the school, we have seen it do great good in our lives and in the lives of others. We want it to continue to be a place where great good happens in the Church, and this threatens that.

Quite honestly, even the Cardinal Newman Society, first to launch notredamescandal.com, was more or less opportunistic in this whole situation. The day of the announcement of Obama’s invitation, the website and petition were up–complete with a button to donate to the CNS. This coming from an organization which did not recommend ND in its last “Newman’s Guide to Catholic Colleges” (see the Appendix: “What about Notre Dame?”). People with no direct affiliation with ND were expressing their outrage at the situation before the rest of us even were able to get our bearings and formulate a response, and it was all naysaying–“Look, ND really ISN’T Catholic, after all!”; “Another one bites the dust!” etc. Quite unhelpful.

 

[Catholic20064]

Well said.

A bit of a sidenote, but I find that many who are most pessimistic about ND after this Obama mess weren’t even optimistic about it beforehand. Those of us who love ND were so deeply and personally hurt by the invitation and honor BECAUSE we ourselves love the school, we have seen it do great good in our lives and in the lives of others. We want it to continue to be a place where great good happens in the Church, and this threatens that.

Quite honestly, even the Cardinal Newman Society, first to launch notredamescandal.com, was more or less opportunistic in this whole situation. The day of the announcement of Obama’s invitation, the website and petition were up–complete with a button to donate to the CNS. This coming from an organization which did not recommend ND in its last “Newman’s Guide to Catholic Colleges” (see the Appendix: “What about Notre Dame?”). People with no direct affiliation with ND were expressing their outrage at the situation before the rest of us even were able to get our bearings and formulate a response, and it was all naysaying–“Look, ND really ISN’T Catholic, after all!”; “Another one bites the dust!” etc. Quite unhelpful.

The advantage Notre Dame has for a Catholic student is the large number of choices for majors that just aren’t available at some of the liberal arts Catholic colleges that are trying to be more orthodox. There is no place for an electrical engineering major at Steubenville for example. I’ve seen well-grounded Catholics come to Notre Dame, graduate, and go on to help local parishes. They’ve been extremely orthodox and well-educated. Notre Dame does need to do a better job at attracting orthodox Catholic faculty.

 

[Rach620]

The advantage Notre Dame has for a Catholic student is the large number of choices for majors that just aren’t available at some of the liberal arts Catholic colleges that are trying to be more orthodox. There is no place for an electrical engineering major at Steubenville for example. I’ve seen well-grounded Catholics come to Notre Dame, graduate, and go on to help local parishes. They’ve been extremely orthodox and well-educated. Notre Dame does need to do a better job at attracting orthodox Catholic faculty.

It attracts them, for sure; it just doesn’t hire them.

Hiring at ND is akin to hiring at Princeton, is what I’ve been told. The various departments simply are not placing enough importance on a candidate’s Catholicism when evaluating them for open positions, save for a few. For more info, read the articles here on “Catholic Faculty Hiring at ND” (Parts 1-3 by Brian Boyd).