Prove Transubtantiation and I will convert

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Bible_Believer said:
Ronald…I didnt know I was trying to debate anyone…I thought I was free to state what I believe just as you are. And no, I do not want to believe Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist. I mean no disrespect, but this is one area we will agree to disagree on. I have never seen the word Eucharist in the Bible.
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It is not a debate … .there can be no winner or loser like a contest but an honest explanation of how and why the Eucharist “is” is required. Catholics take Jesus at His word when He says “You must eat the flesh of the Son of Man”. John 6 is chock full of Jesus quoted, it contains no explanation of His words but just what He said.

Mary’s response to the Angel’s revelation that she would conceive and bear a son …“How can this be?” is a legitimate response to a seemingly impossible occurance. This demands a response from the recipient of the revelation. It is either “It cannot be” and you walk away or much like Mary’s response “Let it be done according to your will.” Mary’s assent was one of I know it will be done even though right now I do not understand. She consented without full knowledge or understanding. There is a hint that in time she would come to understand. There is much similarity between these 2 occurances, both take us to events that do not normally occur naturally. Women don’t conceive on their own and bread and wine dont turn into flesh and blood. They go into places where only God can work and believing them takes us out of our normal comfort zones.

Your forum name of “Bible Believer” points to the fact that you believe what is in the Bible … it is hard then to for Catholics to reconcile what you say Jesus meant by His words versus what Jesus actually said. The Catholic belief is one that Jesus meant what He said (though seemingly impossible) and in time we would come to better understand the full impact of His words.
 
Bible_Believer said:
Ronald…I didnt know I was trying to debate anyone…I thought I was free to state what I believe just as you are. And no, I do not want to believe Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist. I mean no disrespect, but this is one area we will agree to disagree on. I have never seen the word Eucharist in the Bible.
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I agree with you, I too have not yet found in the bible the very word “Eucharist”. But did you ever wonder what “Eucharist” really mean to a Catholic? It is the body of Christ in the appearance of the bread. That fact is taught by St. Paul in 1 Cor 11:29. If not, what do you think Paul was saying there?
 
thanksgiving, to give thanks, the bread of thanksgiving.

this is found in scripture.

A form of transubstantiation occurred when Jesus turned water into wine, the only difference being that it did not become the flesh and blood of Jesus. It no where says you could see the difference or even taste it, it only says that it was the good wine, which could just mean that the affect of the alcohol was present.
 
A thought just came to me. During the transfiguration Jesus only appeared to Peter James and John in this glorified state but this was told by Luke who believed even though he did not see at the time. Jesus’ true state of being was hidden from the rest of them.
 
angelusm said:
Jesus said: this is My Body, this is My Blood. He didn’t say: this is bread and wine. Isn’t it enough for you? And what about eucharistic miracles? One more thing, the difference between you and me is that you are a Bible believer while I’m a God believer:)
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Amen! The Twelve could clearly see that it appeared to be simple bread and wine - the same as they ate and drank daily. WHY would Christ say it was something else - unless, at His command, like the wind and waves, it obeyed Him and became exactly what He said? Remember that “All power in Heaven and on earth has been given me”. This is a big “Duh!” to those who believe in the Presence. Let’s pray that the eyes of those who do not yet believe will be opened by the Holy Spirit.
 
Bible_Believer said:
That is true…I agree…about the trinity, I mean…
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Father, Son and Holy Spirit is specifically mentioned…which is the Blessed Trinity.

But…the Bible doesn’t specifically say a lot of things…for example, Jesus was noted in the Bible as eating dinner I believe, only 6 times it is referenced. Do you think He only ate six times?😉 Well…the Bible says…
 
Ronald_E said:
Dear Bible Believer, First of all I am sorry I made that statement about wanting to believe or to debate. I said that with hostility and that was a sin. I am glad you pointed that out and I hope you are not hurt by my sin. Please forgive me and I ask God’s forgiveness also. Secondly, I do not know if you have a Bible that includes the Book of Sirach or the Book of Wisdom. These contain some beautiful words from God that are truly a gift. There are five other books in the Old Testament that I am sure you are aware of that contain beautiful Truths. The Second Book of Maccabees describes a mother being forced to watch each one of her seven sons be unimaginably tortured and put to death rather than betray God. The Book of Sirach was used in the early church in the first century as a source of moral teaching. It was then not included in the Hebrew Bible after that time because it was used as a source of Christian formation. I will no longer attempt to prove to you that Christ is present in Communion. I do not want to sin in the smallest way and cause you suffering. I was wrong.
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Ronald,
Hi! Thank you for your kind words. That was very sweet of you to say what you did, but please know, you did not hurt my feelings. I did not think any the less of you. Honestly, it is just very easy to become passionate about what we believe. I dont think any of us in here really mean to be mean to each other. I know I have said a few things probably with not the right spirit, and that is not right either.
When any of us come to the point of arguement, it does defeat the whole purpose of the group, which is to share what we believe with love and respect for each other. I hope that po18guy and Edwin might be reading this as well, because Id like to say to them also that I am sorry for the spirit with which I have stated my case. Nothing will ever be gained by trying to be the one who is right. There are many of us in here with many different beliefs. Mine are far from what the Catholic Church teaches. I do not mind sharing what I believe, and I will stand by my faith and I feel I have backed it up, but I want to refrain from doing it in a manner that is less than loving. Its really ok to disagree. As I have said before…my best friend of 30 years is about the most devout Catholic you will ever meet, and yes, we have discussed our differing faiths many times but have never been ugly with each other. I say all of this just to simply say that I really do appreciate your kind words, and to just know there is no harm done…I hope from this point on that we can all continue to share but with the spirit of love and friendship. I know I shall do my part to make sure I come to you all in the right spirit, and when I have spoken in a way to prove my point…for that I humbly apologize too.
May the Holy Spirit guide and direct our words always.
God bless!
 
Bible_Believer said:
Ronald,
Hi! Thank you for your kind words. That was very sweet of you to say what you did, but please know, you did not hurt my feelings. I did not think any the less of you. Honestly, it is just very easy to become passionate about what we believe. I dont think any of us in here really mean to be mean to each other. I know I have said a few things probably with not the right spirit, and that is not right either.
When any of us come to the point of arguement, it does defeat the whole purpose of the group, which is to share what we believe with love and respect for each other. I hope that po18guy and Edwin might be reading this as well, because Id like to say to them also that I am sorry for the spirit with which I have stated my case. Nothing will ever be gained by trying to be the one who is right. There are many of us in here with many different beliefs. Mine are far from what the Catholic Church teaches. I do not mind sharing what I believe, and I will stand by my faith and I feel I have backed it up, but I want to refrain from doing it in a manner that is less than loving. Its really ok to disagree. As I have said before…my best friend of 30 years is about the most devout Catholic you will ever meet, and yes, we have discussed our differing faiths many times but have never been ugly with each other. I say all of this just to simply say that I really do appreciate your kind words, and to just know there is no harm done…I hope from this point on that we can all continue to share but with the spirit of love and friendship. I know I shall do my part to make sure I come to you all in the right spirit, and when I have spoken in a way to prove my point…for that I humbly apologize too.
May the Holy Spirit guide and direct our words always.
God bless!
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Amen. Forgive me and accept my apologies as well. Eternal life has a way of bringing the blood to boil. At least now, you understand why we believe what we believe. We share MUCH more than what divides us. The evil one has succeeded in getting Chrstian to fight Christian, rather than fighting him. Let us understand that the one we fight is of this world and delights in watching us clash.

BB, how about you take an hour and go to mass with your friend? Just to observe. See the priest elevate scripture before the assembly to venerate it. Listen to the scripture being read: Old Testament, then New Testament, then the Gospel. Listen to the homily that is based on the scripture. Next, see that we believe every single word in the bible and worship our Blessed Lord in Word and Sacrament. I am sure he would agree to attend with you as well. But, simply go, as we were called to unity, so we call you.

Let us know and we can and will be glad to explain anything you see. Christ’s peace.
 
po18guy said:
Amen. Forgive me and accept my apologies as well. Eternal life has a way of bringing the blood to boil. At least now, you understand why we believe what we believe. We share MUCH more than what divides us. The evil one has succeeded in getting Chrstian to fight Christian, rather than fighting him. Let us understand that the one we fight is of this world and delights in watching us clash.

BB, how about you take an hour and go to mass with your friend? Just to observe. See the priest elevate scripture before the assembly to venerate it. Listen to the scripture being read: Old Testament, then New Testament, then the Gospel. Listen to the homily that is based on the scripture. Next, see that we believe every single word in the bible and worship our Blessed Lord in Word and Sacrament. I am sure he would agree to attend with you as well. But, simply go, as we were called to unity, so we call you.

Let us know and we can and will be glad to explain anything you see. Christ’s peace.
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You dont know how much better my day has started out by reading this post as my first one of the morning! Thank you…and please…it is fine…and so true…speaking about our faith sure can get us riled at times, and you are RIGHT in that the enemy would love nothing better than to take our eyes off of Christ and cause us to argue and get to the place where all we want to do is be right. And I put myself way up there on that list too!
I have done what you suggested. When Pat, my friend lived here in town, we would go to church with each other sometimes. I would get up REALLY early (lol) and go to mass with her, then she would come and go to my independent Baptist church with me! In future conversations in here…I shall use the example she and I have carried out over the past 30 years in discussion. We honestly have never gotten out of sorts with each other, and we obviously are as different as night and day in what we believe.
Yeah, I have Jack Chick book, also David Daniels and Rick Nelson, who I KNEW take a hard line…and yeah…I do want to say that when I first even brought up Jack Chick in here I did it to be smart eleck, and that was very wrong of me, and I include that act of ignorance in my apology as well. In the future if I do refer to him, it will be to just relay what I feel I have learned, but in the right spirit, and not to be a put down to anyone, because I sure dont want to take part in giving the enemy any kind of glory among us.
Thank you, and have a blessed day, my friends!
 
I believe in transubstantiation because JESUS said so. When he took the bread and wine , blessed them and said that they ARE his BODY and BLOOD and yet in appearance remained bread and wine was HE scamming us? Or was HE proving that HE WAS GOD and that the bread and wine WERE his BODY and BLOOD?
 
luv_pis said:
Goodness, here I go again.

Go to the link I have in my signature, and take the Test.
Is the Eucharist all hokey…or is it the real Thing? Take the Believer’s Test and find out!
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I love that webpage. I’ve read it and it’s a good read. It’s something that I could start as a “forward” email! 😉
 
I would like to quote a priest who witnessed a Eucharistic Miracle. I saw him on this video; it’s at the end. (same one as listed in my previous post)

Father John Meade, S.M. - “He’s trying to call our attention. The
main thing is that God so loves us He gave His only begotten
Son. That’s gotta get to us. That’s got to reach us some how,
some way, that’s got to come into our life. And we gotta make a
decision about it. We’ve got to do something about it…
‘I give you my only begotten son, the most precious thing I’ve got’
and that is what God gave us, & that’s the Eucharist. God is with
us, God is with us…”

Yes indeed, God is with us! Emmanuel! And we get to see Him every single day! We get to eat His Body & drink His Blood every single day! I love God for giving us the Gift of Himself! He loves us so much that He humbled Himself so that He can be our Bread of Life! ❤️ Our True Food & True Drink! 🙂
 
Bible_Believer said:
I sure dont want to take part in giving the enemy any kind of glory among us.
Thank you, and have a blessed day, my friends!
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BibleBeliever, I know you have attended mass. Have you ever spent a Holy Hour before the Blessed Sacrament? Bring your bible to read - it’s perfect. If she (your Catholic friend) does not go to Adoration, take her! What a delicious irony that would be…I can personally attest to some minor miracles of prayer in His presence. Lord, I do believe. Help my unbelief!

Also, I must confess that the Chaplain at work (who happens to be Seventh Day Adventist) told me of one of his favorite movies: The Scarlet and the Black (Gregory Peck, Christopher Plummer), a true story of a Vatican priest hiding refugees from the nazis in occupied Italy. A nazi Colonel tried to kill the priest, but was later converted to the faith by the same priest. Great movie. What an embarrassing way for a Catholic to learn about that movie! Just shows that we’re all one body, even if separated by a few things…😦

May Christ’s peace be always with you - beginning with this Advent.
 
I just want to say that I love this forum. I must also confess I do not know how to smile on a computer yet.
Father Auve our new Holy Spirit Parish priest gave us a couple of quotes to educate us on how to receive communion. In 350 AD St. Cyril of Jerusalem wrote in the Synod of Trullo in the Canon : “When thou goest to receive communion go not with thy wrists extended, nor with thy fingers separated, but placing thy left hand as a throne for thy right, which is to receive so great a King, and in the hollow of the palm receive the body of Christ, saying Amen.”
This one I love from St. John Damascus in 700 AD: “Wherefore with all fear and a pure conscience and certain faith let us draw near and it will assuredly be to us as we believe, doubting nothing…and with our hands held in the form of the cross let us receive the body of the Crucified One: and let us apply our eyes and lips and brows and partake of the divine coal, in order that the fire of the longing, that is in us, with the additional heat derived from the coal may utterly consume our sins and illumine our hearts, and that we may be inflamed and deified by the participation in the divine fire. Isaiah saw the coal. But coal is not plain wood but wood united with fire: in like manner also the bread of the communion is not plain bread but bread united with divinity. But a body which is united with divinity is not one nature, but has one nature belonging to the body and another belonging to the divinity that is united to it…”
I LOVE THE FIRE AND THE MYSTERY OF OUR BEAUTIFUL FAITH!!! What we see practiced cannot express the depth of the unseen that our faith has as its foundation. God Bless You.
 
po18guy said:
BibleBeliever, I know you have attended mass. Have you ever spent a Holy Hour before the Blessed Sacrament? Bring your bible to read - it’s perfect. If she (your Catholic friend) does not go to Adoration, take her! What a delicious irony that would be…I can personally attest to some minor miracles of prayer in His presence. Lord, I do believe. Help my unbelief!

Also, I must confess that the Chaplain at work (who happens to be Seventh Day Adventist) told me of one of his favorite movies: The Scarlet and the Black (Gregory Peck, Christopher Plummer), a true story of a Vatican priest hiding refugees from the nazis in occupied Italy. A nazi Colonel tried to kill the priest, but was later converted to the faith by the same priest. Great movie. What an embarrassing way for a Catholic to learn about that movie! Just shows that we’re all one body, even if separated by a few things…😦
That sounds like an incredible movie! Id LOVE to see it! Gregory Peck and Christopher Plummer! Wow…its GOT to be good, but the story sounds pretty incredible! Thanks for telling me about it!
That had to have been quite a priest!
What exactly is a holy hour like you were telling me?? When you say the Blessed Sacrament, are you speaking of communion or something else?? And I have also heard of Adoration, but Im not sure exactly what that is either as far as attending a service??
have a blessed day!

May Christ’s peace be always with you - beginning with this Advent.
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Bible_Believer:
Dear Believer,
I am a cradle Catholic who attends daily mass at 6:30 AM. Po118guy got me to start Eucharistic Adoration a few months ago. I have done this three times now, the First Saturdays of Oct, Nov, and Dec. It is quiet time spend with the Eucharist exposed in the monstrance on the Alter. You can sit and listen, pray, read your Bible. It is time to just BE in the phyical presence of the Lord.
 
qui_est_ce said:
Dear Believer,
I am a cradle Catholic who attends daily mass at 6:30 AM. Po118guy got me to start Eucharistic Adoration a few months ago. I have done this three times now, the First Saturdays of Oct, Nov, and Dec. It is quiet time spend with the Eucharist exposed in the monstrance on the Alter. You can sit and listen, pray, read your Bible. It is time to just BE in the phyical presence of the Lord.
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If you live in a medium-to-large sized town, I am sure that several parishes have Eucharistic Adoration. Usually, they occur once a month, once a week, or continuously, even 24/7! As was mentioned, it’s a great time to just be with the Lord, maybe even pray some psalms of praise. As is often mentioned in these forums, the Protestant ladies love to come to Fr. Groeschel’s parish for Eucharistic Adoration because they can tell that “the sweet Lord Jesus is really here!” My wife and I truly appreciate Eucharistic Adoration as one of the highlights of our week.

God bless.
 
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Bible_Believer:
Gregory Peck plays Monsignor Hugh O’Flaherty, with Christopher Plummer playing Nazi Colonel Herbert Kappler, who was appointed by Himmler. Sir John Gielgud plays Pope Pius X. You can often find the movie on eBay for a few dollars, or on Amazon. There are a lot of bios on the web, but here is one with a photo: terracetalkireland.com/profiles/hugh.htm

As to Holy Hour, the parish priest will take bread that has been consecrated into the Eucharist. Devout Catholics fervently believe, as we are taught, that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ. Among other reasons, this is based on the words of Christ Himself in John 6 and as Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 11. The priest places the Sacrament into a fixture in which it becomes visible. It is then referred to as the “Monstrance”. The faithful gather, oftentimes around the clock, to adore Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. Many pray, while others may read scripture in His presence.

Nearly every parish offers Adoration. If not, they certainly should. It is there that I have seen amazing things happen in prayer. The Holy Hour is based on Christ’s words, when He asked the Apostles, “Could you not remain with me even one hour?” It is most certainly worth an hour’s time, if only to read scripture. May He bring you great inner peace.
 
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