Prove Transubtantiation and I will convert

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Just something to ponder. When Luther broke away. The line back to Christ was broken. He would be the last one who could perform the Sacrament of Communion. I do not know the history of Anglican Church so I could not comment from that perspective.
 
Ronald_E said:
Just something to ponder. When Luther broke away. The line back to Christ was broken. He would be the last one who could perform the Sacrament of Communion. I do not know the history of Anglican Church so I could not comment from that perspective.
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We’re talking about Lutheran *belief. *Actually the Swedish Lutherans can claim apostolic succession, but you’re right that most of the other Lutherans can’t.

Anglicans can and many do claim apostolic succession (I say “many” because some Anglicans think episcopacy is just an appropriate and ancient way of running the Church), but Pope Leo XIII ruled in the 19th century that we broke our succession by adopting an ordination ritual with certain key Catholic elements deliberately excluded (there were also some questions about just who was doing one key consecration). Naturally we have been arguing with this ruling ever since. Ask GKC for more. He’s our resident expert on this subject and on Henry VIII’s divorce/annulment.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
We’re talking about Lutheran *belief. *Actually the Swedish Lutherans can claim apostolic succession, but you’re right that most of the other Lutherans can’t.
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I’ve often wondered about these Swedish Lutherans. From the Catholic perspective, would the reasoning of Apostolicae Curae apply to them as well? Did they have the same sort of defects of intent and form as the Anglicans or, from the Catholic viewpoint, did these Lutherans somehow manage to avoid those problems?
 
guanophore said:
This post was taken off another thread where it was off topic.
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Originally Posted by Steadfast
If you can show me where the ECF’s taught and believed that the bread and wine were changed into the Body and Blood of Christ such that the bread and wine ceased to exist only the accidents remaining, I will enroll in RCIA today.
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I note that he started his statement with a qualifier. “If” he has read the foregoing posts, and is not now in RCIA (like that actually happened!:rolleyes: ) he cannot be convinced by anyone other than the Holy Spirit.

When reason fails, and emotion flails, prayer prevails.
 
Fredrick_Correa said:
…
There are certain beliefs which are common with others. Let us cement our relations with those beliefs. There are certain beliefs which need to be clarified. Let us do so with an open mind. There are certain beliefs which are basically different from each other. Let us keep these beliefs to ourselves and respect each other and pray for each other. …

size & color emphasis mine
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Your warm intentions are appreciated I’m sure by most everyone here. But I refuse to stay quiet about my beliefs if they are “mutilated” and twisted to suite someone’s own opinions & “beliefs.”

I will not be complacent about my beliefs and I certainly will not keep my beliefs to myself. That is NOT what Jesus said for us to do.

I agree with respecting others and praying for others so I will try my best (as God graces me) with this suggestion. Please pray for me too, I need all the help I can get with showing charity to my neighbor.

PEACE :gopray:
 
peary said:
🤷
In other words, if we personally do not ‘believe’ that same-sex marriages should be blessed because others believe they are holy, we should just shut up and not challenge?
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To be very honest with you, I never thought of the above idea while replying. I was referring to religion to religion differences.

May be same sex marriages could be discussed and clarified under the second category. Leviticus Chapter 18 verse 22 and Leviticus Chapter 20 verse 13 are very clear that God does not approve same sex marriages.

Warm regards,
Fredrick Correa, Nairobi

When wicked men blaspheme thee, I’ll love and bless thy name!
 
AlegreFe said:
Your warm intentions are appreciated I’m sure by most everyone here. But I refuse to stay quiet about my beliefs if they are “mutilated” and twisted to suite someone’s own opinions & “beliefs.”
PEACE :gopray:
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Thank you for your appreciation. It takes a generous heart to do so. If your beliefs are mutilated and twisted please correct the same with the persons concerned. However be gentle as you correct your opponents (2 Timothy Chapter 2 verse 25)

Warm regards,
Fredrick Correa, Nairobi

When wicked men blaspheme thee, I’ll love and bless thy name!
 
This is a very long thread, and as far as as i can see, the responses have ainly been “Scripture proves transubstantiation, because it says so here”

What we also see is The Bread and wine stays as bread and wine whilst still being magically transformed into Blood and flesh.

I think what the original poster was after is someone spitting out the wafer and the alcohol and having it anylysed for biological content.
 
tommiatkins said:
This is a very long thread, and as far as as i can see, the responses have ainly been “Scripture proves transubstantiation, because it says so here”

What we also see is The Bread and wine stays as bread and wine whilst still being magically transformed into Blood and flesh.

I think what the original poster was after is someone spitting out the wafer and the alcohol and having it anylysed for biological content.
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I will pray for you as long as you don’t blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.

Christ’s peace.
 
In response to having the bread and wine analyzed consider quantum physics and the study of light. For example, light can be studied either as a wave or a particle. However, it is not yet known if this is the result of the researcher’s perception or some other unknown factor. However, when I remember that Jesus told us if we had the faith of a mustard seed we could move mountains it appears that belief is everything. Belief either restricts us or opens us.
 
Admittedly, I have not read most of the responses here to your challenge. There are many ways to approach an answer to your “prove it to me” challenge. I believe History and the early Church evidences give support to Jesus really present in the Eucharist.

However, everything cannot be proven to the same degree. I can say prove to me that Jesus is God or that God is Trinitarian. I certainly believe Jesus is God and that God is Trinitarian. I can provide scriptural support for Jesus being God and God being Trinitarian just as I can for the Eucharist being really Jesus (“this is my body”; John 6 theological discourse). The proofs we can provide are limited as far as evidences are concerned and faith has to come into play on each of these matters. My faith extends to belief in Jesus in the Eucharist as well as other Catholic beliefs. The proofs of Scripture, history, and the Churches affirm my faith. However, faith is a response to God’s grace… God has given us the grace to respond to him and faith in the belief in the Eucharist is a response to God’s grace that he is given to me and I thank him daily for this.

God bless,

Larry
 
Im agnostic, I dont beleive anything in the Bible is provable and that much of it is demonstrably wrong.

It appears that some catholics still beleive that the wafer and wine is actually physically transformed into Platelets, Nuetrophills and Plasma, muscle tissue and bones.

That is provably incorrect, simply by analysing the contents of the mouth.
These days, as transubstantiation becomes harder and harder to swallow in a rational society, a lot of catholics simply use “Blood and Body” as a metaphor. But this is a recent development.

The original poster asked the members to prove transubstatiation and he will convert. The replies have been scriptually based. Noone can prove to him it exists, and yet, it is provable with a simple laboratry test to be 100% false.

Transubstantiation is one of those areas that needs to be “Let slide” like purgotary or Hell or Noah, in order for catholisism to not collapse under a welter of logic and fact.
 
tommiatkins said:
Im agnostic, I dont beleive anything in the Bible is provable and that much of it is demonstrably wrong.

It appears that some catholics still beleive that the wafer and wine is actually physically transformed into Platelets, Nuetrophills and Plasma, muscle tissue and bones.

That is provably incorrect, simply by analysing the contents of the mouth.
These days, as transubstantiation becomes harder and harder to swallow in a rational society, a lot of catholics simply use “Blood and Body” as a metaphor. But this is a recent development.

The original poster asked the members to prove transubstatiation and he will convert. The replies have been scriptually based. Noone can prove to him it exists, and yet, it is provable with a simple laboratry test to be 100% false.

Transubstantiation is one of those areas that needs to be “Let slide” like purgotary or Hell or Noah, in order for catholisism to not collapse under a welter of logic and fact.
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No one denies that the host and chalice behave like wine and bread. We are talking about the substance. What it is ontologically. That is different. You are presupposing anti-supernaturalism and perhaps your presuppositions are leading you to erroneous conclusions.
 
The default positon for reality is non-supernature.

The Bread is made out of flour and water, it remains exactly that, and goes through a normal digestion process. This is perfectly provable.

To suggest anything else based on ontinology, you might as well argue that a traffic cone is actually lemon cheese pie. You might be able to point to a obscure book written in a time of ignorance, that says traffic cones are Lemon Cheese pies, you may debate for centuries that Traffic cones are metaphorically lemon pies, But that dosnt make, at the end of the day them any more pie-like.

The original poster wanted proof that transsub existed, and i’m afraid, it’s impossible to prove…and rather easy to prove the opposite.
 
Fredrick_Correa said:
Dear all,
Let us be generous in our remarks. Whenever we give our views, we need to appreciate and put ourselves in the shoes of the other people. We can win over more people with our kind attitude rather than convincing with a lot of logical arguements.

There are certain beliefs which are common with others. Let us cement our relations with those beliefs. There are certain beliefs which need to be clarified. Let us do so with an open mind. **There are certain beliefs which are basically different from each other. Let us keep these beliefs to ourselves and respect each other and pray for each other. **

May God Bless all those who read these lines.

Warm regards,
Fredrick Correa, Nairobi.

When wicked men blaspheme thee, I love and Bless thy name!
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The time is both short and near. Tempus fugit. And so we must seize the day and present the truth without omisions to the truth. Tolerance yes but not at the cost of compromise. Now see, if our friend had taken Frederick’s approach, then the conversation could’ve gone differently. But… well the rest is history.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
 
tommiatkins said:
The default positon for reality is non-supernature.
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Not so. The default position has always been an acceptance of some form of the supernatural… That being said, i have always said that it is more reasonable to believe that there are unicorns dancing on a rainbow outside of my room than to accept atheism. It is possible that there are such unicorns but I just do not have the capacity to see them. However atheism is completely untenable. Atheism is the most unreasonalbe position that I have ever seen.
 
tommiatkins said:
The default positon for reality is non-supernature.

The Bread is made out of flour and water, it remains exactly that, and goes through a normal digestion process. This is perfectly provable.
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You must not understand transubstatiation. The accidents of the Bread and Wine remain the same. After ingestion into the body, the Real Presence ceases to be, and the accidents again become full (non-supernatural) substances.
To suggest anything else based on ontinology, you might as well argue that a traffic cone is actually lemon cheese pie. You might be able to point to a obscure book written in a time of ignorance, that says traffic cones are Lemon Cheese pies, you may debate for centuries that Traffic cones are metaphorically lemon pies, But that dosnt make, at the end of the day them any more pie-like.
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Your argumentation is sensless, as we are arguing the Real Presence, not traffic cones. Traffic cones have no religious significance.
The original poster wanted proof that transsub existed, and i’m afraid, it’s impossible to prove…and rather easy to prove the opposite.
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Um, no. By the Catholic position, you can only argue from a Biblical perspective, and point out the Eucharistic Miracles. By your logic, you cannot prove it one way or the other.
 
tommiatkins said:
The default positon for reality is non-supernature.

The Bread is made out of flour and water, it remains exactly that, and goes through a normal digestion process. This is perfectly provable.

To suggest anything else based on ontinology, you might as well argue that a traffic cone is actually lemon cheese pie. You might be able to point to a obscure book written in a time of ignorance, that says traffic cones are Lemon Cheese pies, you may debate for centuries that Traffic cones are metaphorically lemon pies, But that dosnt make, at the end of the day them any more pie-like.

The original poster wanted proof that transsub existed, and i’m afraid, it’s impossible to prove…and rather easy to prove the opposite.
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Again here, the stumbling block is not transubstantiation…its the Divinity of Jesus Christ! If you don’t accept that He is the Word of God made flesh, then anything after that is unprovable and without substance.
You can’t just put aside the Divine Truth made flesh and expect to even approach a semblance of reason thru faith or faith thru reason. Expecting to arrive at the truth without the Truth.
 
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