Proving God Exists

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I realize this comment was addressed to Super Grover, but I have to make a comment on this distinction between knowledge and belief that you cling to so tightly.

Part of the problem with supposed rationalists or brights as they often call themselves – the self-proclaimed enlightened ones – is their consistent, or inconsistent (depending upon your point of view), application of the word “belief.” According to this group, theists have beliefs, but atheists, basing their conclusions solely upon verifiable evidence only work with “knowledge.” They “know” things but never, ever commit the sin of “believing” something. They cannot be “sucked in” to such a naive position as those theists, purely because of their intellectual superiority.
This is definitely news to me. I don’t know one can ever have knowledge of even having knowledge if the senses can’t be trusted. I really think that we’re getting so technical that it’s pointless. We’ve sent rockets billions of miles away, so I’m thinking our beliefs can be pretty accurate. Basically, we believe things are knowledge. We’re always agnostic to some extent, but the degree of that is really negligible in my opinion. I mean, if you see a glass of water, don’t you think you know there’s a glass of water there? It’s technically a belief, but I’d still call it knowledge. I’m not that picky.
Perhaps it is precisely here that intellectual pride shows itself in its most malignant form. They cannot be wrong because the evidence proves them right, so they can move forward, apparently immune from any possibility of error. “We don’t believe things,” they say, “We only accept or allow what demonstrates certainty, hence we have knowledge.”
See, this kind of stuff pisses me off. What are you talking about? “We don’t believe things?” Who says that? This is a complete misrepresentation of atheists worldwide. I could make the exact same statement about theism, but it’s such a blatant stereotype that I wouldn’t do it. To me it sounds like you’re just saying “Atheists are always right. They even alter their words and change ours so they are always right.” Says who?

If you want to deal with knowledge vs belief, then I have no idea what you’re talking about. My concern is with knowledge(or belief of) vs faith. The very second we can use faith to send a man to the moon, I’ll be very impressed. Or when you measure cosmic radiation with faith… Oh! How about when save lives!
Even despite the fact that Rainier knows he does not know everything, he still feels confident in making a conclusion – well beyond the sphere of his knowledge, I might add – that God does not exist and even smugly laughs off the possibility as being akin to believing in the flying spaghetti monster because neither proposition has evidence supporting it.
BS! Intellectual dishonesty! I do not believe there is a God just as you do not believe there is a flying spaghetti monster. Do you not understand that? The evidence is parallel. There the exact same amount of evidence for both deities.

cont.
 
Rainier, until all the facts are in, we have no intellectual right to claim any knowledge, all we, including you, have are beliefs.
Beliefs. How about testable, falsifiable beliefs like the predicted effects on light by gravity that were discovered after they were predicted?

More important is that this theory could be 100% wrong. There could be invisible monkeys holding mirrors to bend the light, but you have to admit that the beliefs made a pretty amazing prediction. I don’t think you understand why we have science. We constantly test our beliefs to make sure they are correct, and when they’re wrong, of course we change them. Everything is questionable - absolutely everything. What can be sustained by the evidence though?
The Six Blind Men and the Elephant is a revealing story about not “jumping to conclusions” based upon limited sensory (name removed by moderator)ut. Until “full-disclosure” about the universe happens, you only have a right to claim a belief, not certainty. Anything more is mere intellectual smugness and arrogance. The blind men in the story were absolutely certain of their knowledge that the elephant was a rope, a tree trunk, a pipe or fan. Perhaps they were completely justified in drawing that conclusion based upon their limited perspective.
…They made a hypothesis that was refuted. That’s supposed to happen. This happens all the time. I really don’t even know how to respond. You have such a false premise that I don’t know what to say. I’m gonna skip over the stuff I’ve already addressed.
What is it? Can your senses figure it out? Very few people who have not been “shown” by someone else can identify it. It has to be “revealed” to them. Perhaps that is the point of God’s word requiring revelation – we need to be shown because on our own senses just don’t reveal what might be “hidden” to them.
Alright, this seems worth addressing. If God reveals things to people like suggested, why then can’t you reveal the information to others? If you now have the information, why can’t you share it? If I reveal something to you, then you can share it.
All we have are beliefs. We support these beliefs with “reasons” for believing and evidence is one kind of “reason for believing” things to be true. It is by far, not the only kind of “reason for believing.” To claim it is, is showing “blindness” to other possibilities. I hope, in your case, that the blindness is curable.
How does the old saying go? You can lead a horse to water, but…
I hope in your case that your blatant dishonesty is curable and that this “hell” place isn’t real for your sake. Evidence is reason for believing. That’s what we call a reason to believe! Please - tell me another “reason to believe” that isn’t evidence! I’d love to hear this one!

If I sound sarcastic and “speaking down to,” it’s because I am. This is what blatant dishonesty deserves.
 
It seems like you believe this is the most rational way to go, but you actually go against it. It’s really interesting.

Seriously, I found your story really fascinating. If I had an experience like that, it would be tough to stay rational. But rationality is all we have in trying to be accurate. I figure it’s better than just believing things.

How exactly did your experience begin? Did you do anything that you hadn’t done before?
First of all, thanks must go to OTavern who just introduced the phrase “of the numinous” to me, which has led me to another term, “Mysterium Tremendum Fascinans” and another book to read, The Idea of the Holy by Rudolf Otto. I had never heard of this before, but the synopses really resonate. Thanks.

Rainier, if I get too much into an experience that I had, someone might jump on the rule about unapproved private revelations, although I don’t think that I could violate that rule because there were were no visions, no voices, no “extra knowledge” downloaded into my brain (“I know Kung Fu”), or anything like that. What I had (IMO) was an extra-rational, beyond rational, non-rational (not “irrational”) experience. I have not really unpacked the experience much yet, though, so until I do, I’m not sure I can be the best proponent of this kind of thing. To be honest, for whatever reason, I did not feel that it was right to dwell on the experience, but to rather just let the experience point me in the right direction and move on. I recorded some it in writing before it faded so that I could go back an reexamine it (see how rational I am?) some day, but I have not done that yet. It just seemed too self indulgent and sort of spiritually gluttonous to dwell on it. Some day there may be a good reason to examine this, for instance, so that I can explain it to people who want to understand these things. But for now, I have my hands plenty full with playing catch up with all the things that I should have learned about my Faith.

You want me to be all rational, and I’m going to get all mystical on you. I can tell you, for whatever it’s worth, that I am now very turned off by these new age types, with their hybrid eastern mysticism, trying to “empty the self” to attain “oneness with all that is.” My personal sense is that this is all false and dangerous. We empty ourselves to allow room for God, not to create a vacuum as if the emptiness itself is some sort of ideal. And we should not attempt not attain some supposed oneness with all that is in some kind of pulverization of identity, but rather we experience the “otherness” of the Infinite God in ways that leave us with a sense of the inadequacy of our language for describing such an experience, the limitations of our emotions for identifying the feeling, and the limitations of our intellect for fully grasping the experience. Like I said, I had a deep sense of “knowing” of truth, but no “extra knowledge” that didn’t exist before. As for “feeling”, I once described the feeling by saying, “you know those wheels that show emotions going in a circle? Well, I have a powerful emotion that is nowhere to be found on that wheel.” And, I did not go into a lotus position – I got my butt to confession as fast as I could because I was scared, and knew I had good cause to be.

I really was made to know that there is a God, that we are insignificant creatures but that we are loved more than we could ever comprehend, that despite our insignificance, we are deeply respected by God, that we must work to attain perfection, and that doing so requires us to act and think in ways that are often laughed at by modern society, that we have a model for our actions in God’s only son Jesus, without whose sacrifice we would be lost, and the richest, deepest, most intellectual, most spiritual, and most physical (yes, physical) expressions in this journey to perfection are found in the Catholic church.

No, I don’t think that I did anything that I had not done before, except that I did not block it, which might be different from past occasions. It began like I said in the other post. Gradually, vaguely, as a thought and feeling that I allowed to grow. It was gentle (which is why I think some people anthropomorphize the Holy Spirit as a woman) but powerful. I believe that I could have rejected the experience if I wanted at any time. The intensity faded after a few weeks, which was a loss, but in a way is good, because it was a little bit hard to function when the world itself seemed insignificant. That’s not to say that I did not love the world because I actually loved the world more, I just didn’t “cling” to it. There are similarities now when I pray like I should where the world takes on an appearance of closeness yet distance, like I have one foot here and one foot almost in the next world. It’s hard to explain, but lots of people here know exactly what I’m talking about.
 
Beliefs. How about testable, falsifiable beliefs like the predicted effects on light by gravity that were discovered after they were predicted?
All predicated on beliefs, beliefs such as in gravity, your senses, the law of noncontradiction, and many others.
More important is that this theory could be 100% wrong. There could be invisible monkeys holding mirrors to bend the light, but you have to admit that the beliefs made a pretty amazing prediction.
Have, thus far, made accurate predictions. You have no reason to believe that they cannot, at any moment, change that isn’t either circular or its own belief.
Alright, this seems worth addressing. If God reveals things to people like suggested, why then can’t you reveal the information to others?
We can. By showing them, and by telling them. It’s called “preaching,” which sometimes even takes the form of words.
If I reveal something to you, then you can share it.
No. If postmodernism has taught us anything, it’s that sharing anything other than basic instructions through words is really really hard, if not completelly impossible. It is impossible (or so near to impossible that the difference can’t be seen by a high-powered microscope) to explain the concept of the color “salmon” to a person who has been blind from birth to the point where they understand it as well as if they had seen it themselves. How much more difficult would it be to explain private revelation?
Evidence is reason for believing.
Why? What makes the senses so special that they are beyond doubt? Indeed, what about sense perception is such that it is undoubtable (when not obviously affected, of course)?
 
In my experience, there is a logical refutation for any position (pretty much) even if it’s one you don’t agree with. I have found the argument that works best with atheists is to point out the irrefutable fact that there is a directioon to reality (Aquinas’ teleological argument). I think this is one of the big stumbling blocks of atheism - sure, all life - all existence just occurs. It’s just an accident. What a wierd, rare accident though! Why evolve, why form cell colonies, why reproduce? An atheist has to state that there may not be a design - but it certainly seems that life is *determined *to occur!
 
Sir Rainier, if you still like to hear Christians, i would like to mentione something.
you show rage and that reminds me something.let me explain a story, that i never shared to anybody in full. i am radiolaocation/ radionavigation engineer by diploma and some practices in the past, but keep that in my mind as technologies and so on. i was so deep in it, that i believed that any emotion or state can be explained with frequency generation. f.e. your rage is 566 MHz, or in the cloudy weather the sky emits 654,58 KHz wave. i was so obsessed by the idea, that everything can be explained, formulated, booked and filed by the His Excellency The Science. if not - it is just a matter of time and new technology.
here the funny thing - i was in love with a lady, that was not very much fond of me. i tried to find out what wave frequency radiation i have to apply, in order to provoke LOVE in her towards me. can you imagine, a device with a generator, filters, power supply, radiates love…
the funniest thing is that, that i still believe in that. but now i know that the world has an intelligent Creator. he made the system and runs it. there are very strict rules of the nature, nothing happens occasionally. if somebody goes wrong, he/she is punished. the generator of love is my hearth and brain. the generator works on the best mode, without distortion, if it is on the Creators frequency or as close as possible. i try to make it in resonance, but as i am so weak in the Faith, frequently do mistakes and start again… the events can be changed, only if any human being emits a pray to the Creator. the Bible is my user manual and the Catholic Church is the distribution network of the Creator…

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake…
 
“Cats and Dogs, I believe that Gerald L. Schroeder’s “Science of God” may be of help to you in that it may provide a cumulative ‘superproof’.”-Oops: This should also have been addressed to Ziggamafu.
Aquin, I’m not interested in a “super-proof”, personally, and since by “super-proof” we mean a proof that CANNOT be taken as anything BUT a proof of a truth, which is definitionally impossible as it’s always possible to simply decide any proof is not a proof (ie “denial”), no one intently interested in not believing will be swayed by any impossible-to-exist super-proof.

What the Church teaches is not that an endeniable proof of God exists, or even NEEDS to exist, but that one can prove that God exists to one’s self, if one is graced to do what needs doing to do so.

It is an interesting exercise to use materialistic information of the universe to more fully understand why natural law is what it is in more and more depth, but even an exhaustive understanding of natural law (were that possible, which it is not) would not provide a definitive proof, in materialistic term, for God.

Just as your “super-proof”, which you seem to think exists, can be simply discarded by the scientistic materialist, or a non-scientistic more-than-only-materialist scientist (ie: knowledge-wanter-&-searcher) such as myself, you are perfectly free to discard my “proof” that such a “super-proof” can not exist as well.

Impasse! 🙂

There is no “clubbing” people into wanting to believe anything when you can’t make them “hurt” in some way for not wanting to believe!
 
Quote:
What is it? Can your senses figure it out? Very few people who have not been “shown” by someone else can identify it. It has to be “revealed” to them. Perhaps that is the point of God’s word requiring revelation – we need to be shown because on our own senses just don’t reveal what might be “hidden” to them.

Alright, this seems worth addressing. If God reveals things to people like suggested, why then can’t you reveal the information to others?
Apparently, you’re just not listening. God reveals Himself only to those who have a motive to be revealed to.

God personally revealed Himself, via PRIVATE REVELATION, to select individuals in the line of the People of God. Those people give us (mankind as a whole) HINTS that God exists. We are perfectly free to not take their hints that God exists.

But unless we take that hint and experiment with it (ie prayer) the hint gets no confirmation whatsoever, as only our actions with the hints will have the result of confirmation of those hints (as well as the hint’s expansion/elaboration), and that confirmation is not communicable between individuals.

Any communication of confirmation of faithfully held belief given action is merely another HINT, whose use is to trigger action in others.
If you now have the information, why can’t you share it? If I reveal something to you, then you can share it.
What is the “it” in your above text?

The “it” is confirmation of belief, which is not “sharable” (!?) any more than “love of spouse” is “sharable”.

You can TELL others that you love your spouse, but that isn’t PROOF to them that you do!

“Only YOU can prevent forestfires!”

Only YOU have proof that you love that which you say you love. To anyone else, your saying your love is real is merely HINT that you consider “love of spouse” to be a good thing.

If I reveal that I love my spouse, what do I reveal? Proof? NO! Only HINT!

YOU have to do the work necessary to prove to yourself that other’s hints have meaning. Those who don’t do the work necessary have no basis on which to make ANY statement as to the results of what they WON’T DO.

You want others to give you proof of God, which is impossible.

You want God to give you proof of His existence, which He does only for those who do what He tells us (mankind) needs doing.

Until you want to do what needs doing, you won’t do it, and you get to have fun in that lovely playground of having your cake and eating it too. To complain that no one will give you the impossible is the game of simply annoying “the grownups” to see them being annoyed.
 
If I sound sarcastic and “speaking down to,” it’s because I am. This is what blatant dishonesty deserves.
Thank you. I had begun to regret my remarks to you. This forum should and does demand a degree of cordiality and I was afraid I had violated that condition.

If blatant dishonesty deserves sarcasm, how is it that it is not exactly what you deserve? Your original response on this thread stated that, and I think this is pretty close, “fairth is a problem, faith is a bane, faith is an extremely dangerous thing…”

That’s a pretty harsh critique of something you use everyday. If you answer the question “who is your mom and dad” with the names of two people, you have faith. No one knows there parents at the moment of their birth. You have faith in those two people who raised you, in hospital records, in the city hall of records, whatever. If you proceed through an intersection on a green light in your car, you have faith that those in the opposite direction will stop at the red light. I could go on but I am just stating more simply what OTavern cited earlier in a more sophisticated manner. (and I think O’Tavern ticked you off … if I’m correct) You rely on faith everyday, yet you castigate it. Isn’t that intellectually dishonest? (Oh, and congratulation of going to and returning from Kansas City. Probably used that faith thing a lot of times, especially if you flew … or even if you drove)

Your first post cited a soda can analogy as a reason you don’t have faith and you immediately proceeded to muddle the analogy by using the word belief. Belief and faith are two related but entirely different things. Belief lends itself to proof as you demand, faith is best described as a “belief in the things we hope for”. Sure they can be used synonymously, but they aren’t the same, and that is a critical point in any discussion of the existence of God.

My original question to you was whether the existence of God can not be best seen in the existence of man. (probably not my exact words). There is one element of the human being that speaks to that idea. The human memory.
You can not, by your citeria, prove the human memory exists. Not by repeatable, falsifiable, proof. You can show me a brain, but not a memory. You may point to a specific area of the brain and say that is where the memory is, but I will answer you that it is merely the brain. You may depress or excise that portion of the brain and if the memory disappears, you have proved nothing more than that area affects the memory, but I will still contend that it is actually somewhere else in the brain, maybe the medulla. Sort of like clamping off the brachial artery affects the function of the human hand. You can’t prove me wrong. You can not prove beyond reasonable doubt that memory resides anywhere on its own.

Yet we know the memory exists, why, because we see and experience its effects. You see, that’s the theists same argument for God. We cannot prove His existence (we agree with you), yet like the memory which we can’t prove exists, we know he does.

Now maybe you are going apoplectic over my inability or unwillingness to understand your points throughout this thread. I do. It is just that the OP asked a question about an irrefutable argument that is incable of being logically refuted. The simple answer is that is no such argument. The thread should have ended there.

Enjoy your existence, and you future whatever it may be. I doubt you have convinced anyone of the truth of your assertions, but I compliment you on your ability to present them. Then again, ever since Darwin, the atheistic community has been outraged that their philosophy hasn’t won over us intellectually inferior fellow travelers. Must be frustrating, huh buddy?. And thanks for a rerun of the Dennet, Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens playbook. Keeps us on our toes.

And there is no sarcasm there. Don’t want to appear to be speaking down to anyone.
 
Your first post cited a soda can analogy as a reason you don’t have faith and you immediately proceeded to muddle the analogy by using the word belief. Belief and faith are two related but entirely different things. Belief lends itself to proof as you demand, faith is best described as a “belief in the things we hope for”. Sure they can be used synonymously, but they aren’t the same, and that is a critical point in any discussion of the existence of God.
Hear hear! …on the bolded bit above.

Belief used as a verb is really faith, as the ACT of **holding **a belief [noun] through time is the definition of faith [verb].

Beliefs [nouns] are what we DO faith [verb] WITH.

The PRODUCTS of faith [verb] are “reasons for hope” [nouns], which are more “refined” beliefs [nouns] backed up (confirmed) by experience (the nouns having been tested and found at least in part true).

The confusion (at least unconsciously purposeful) in those who don’t see the necessary distinctions required to speak intelligently on this subject sound, sensibly enough, unintelligent in their speaking.

We can’t very well get upset about such an obvious and predictable scenario, so allow the unintelligent to sound unintelligent and perhaps get upset about their being perceived as unitelligent, until the inevitable burn-out (and/or flameout) occurs, while remaining calm so as to draw the most contrast possible between “them” and us. 🙂
 
Super Grover

I really don’t know how to address your story. It’s awesomely interesting, but overall just an experience of the same value of those converts to every other religion. Every time someone here says they have had the experience I imagine a Hindu coming in here and saying “me too!” It’s of the same credibility as Edgar Cayce or reports of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. “What one can claim with their own credulity can be dismissed equally so without demonstration.” All we have to support it is that you’ve changed, and attributing that change to an omnipotent, omniscient, and all-benevolent deity is quite a stretch.

As for you not even peering over your writings, I have to wonder why you’re so against questioning this experience. I mean, the automatic knowing that there is a God seems like something to investigate! It’s obviously easily explainable by other means, so the idea of not investigating those other means seems extremely biased.

Everyone else
I think Super Grover is the only one who understands the complete lack of rationality in beliefs that an atheist sees, so maybe the Socratic method will help this constant confusing of my stance.

What is true, and why do you think it’s true?
 
Everyone else
I think Super Grover is the only one who understands the complete lack of rationality in beliefs that an atheist sees, so maybe the Socratic method will help this constant confusing of my stance.

What is true, and why do you think it’s true?
Well, I believe you’re perfectly rational in seeing what you see as irrational, as you understand the words “rational/irrational”.

What is amusing to non-atheists is that what the atheist comments on is not what we’re talking about!

What you see are beliefs, and comment on their “irrationality”, without seeing any reasons for those beliefs, which you can’t because only those with those beliefs HAVE them to see.

You condemn beliefs whose reasons you can’t see, while we hold beliefs whose reasons we CAN see.

Your “stance” is that you say you want to experience something which you don’t want to experience. You want to have reasons for all your beliefs (which is laudable) but you don’t want reasons ENOUGH in the area of religion (God-stuff) to do what is necessary to get those reasons.

You want the “cheap grace” of knowledge without work.

The reason that no one REALLY believes the FSM is that having faith in that belief points not at the FSM being a reality, but at the reality of God.

Unless eyes are open, through the work of lifting the lids, no sight can be a reason for belief in what others see and believe.

Without open eyes, there is no truth from seeing. With eyes open, there is reason to hope that some truth is being seen.

What is truth? Some of what is being seen.
Why do we believe it is true? Because it leads to God in it’s being seen.
 
Everyone else
I think Super Grover is the only one who understands the complete lack of rationality in beliefs that an atheist sees, so maybe the Socratic method will help this constant confusing of my stance.

What is true, and why do you think it’s true?
why don’t you answer that question for us?

why do you believe that all (justifiable) beliefs need to be based on evidence?

what counts as evidence? and how much is needed?

what is your evidence for general relativity or quantum field theory?

what is your evidence that the principle of non-contradiction is true? or any other necessary truth (e.g. the pythagorean theorem)?

what is your evidence for the reliability of your senses? or the existence of other minds? or the existence of an extramental reality? or the existence of the past?
 
What is truth? Some of what is being seen.
Why do we believe it is true? Because it leads to God in it’s being seen.
The definition of truth according to you is “some of what is being seen.” If I hand you a rock, you think it’s a rock because it leads to God?

edit: You’re also using circular reasoning. You know God exists because God exists and gives you evidence of God existing.

Let’s assume that you’re just dodging the question. Just answer the question so we can move on. What is true, and why is it true?
 
why don’t you answer that question for us?

why do you believe that all (justifiable) beliefs need to be based on evidence?

what counts as evidence? and how much is needed?

what is your evidence for general relativity or quantum field theory?

what is your evidence that the principle of non-contradiction is true? or any other necessary truth (e.g. the pythagorean theorem)?

what is your evidence for the reliability of your senses? or the existence of other minds? or the existence of an extramental reality? or the existence of the past?
If posts continue to be this ridiculous, I’m just going to leave. I’m trying to explain my stance, and you’re just being retarded about it. Just answer the question. You guys are worst than Bill Clinton at a trial!
 
The definition of truth according to you is “some of what is being seen.” If I hand you a rock, you think it’s a rock because it leads to God?
What is the truth of a rock? That it is rock-like, and that it is useful as rocks are to me in this world.

Why do I believe in this truth? Because it is a gift in it’s “interestingness/beauty” and in it’s utility to me, which came from a “not me” who created it who must be REALLY powerful to have done so, which I appreciate quite a lot, and whom I am prompted to find out more about in His generosity for such an incredible gift!

I don’t think it’s a rock because it leads to God. It leads to God because it’s a rock. 🙂
Let’s assume that you’re just dodging the question. Just answer the question so we can move on. What is true, and why is it true?
What is true? Stuff from God.
Why is it true? Because it leads to God.

Where would you like to “move on” to?
 
What is the truth of a rock? That it is rock-like, and that it is useful as rocks are to me in this world.

Why do I believe in this truth? Because it is a gift in it’s “interestingness/beauty” and in it’s utility to me, which came from a “not me” who created it who must be REALLY powerful to have done so, which I appreciate quite a lot, and whom I am prompted to find out more about in His generosity for such an incredible gift!

I don’t think it’s a rock because it leads to God. It leads to God because it’s a rock. 🙂

What is true? Stuff from God.
Why is it true? Because it leads to God.

Where would you like to “move on” to?
Once again, circular reasoning. Truth, according to you, is stuff that comes from God. Therefore, God is true because God says so, and God’s word is true because God says so, and God’s word is true because God says so, and God’s word is true because God said so…

Do you really not know why you think certain things are true?
 
I was invited to this forum to share conversations with some “heavy hitters” here for theism. The heavy hitters have never showed up, and the discussion has been rudimentary at best with most of you. I really see desire to learn or understand here whatsoever and therefore no reason for me to stay. Perhaps you have those that can give a solid argument, but so far it’s been nothing. It’s been standard fundamentalist dodging of questions and fallacies.

I’ll check to see if any of those who can give arguments to why they believe show up, but otherwise I’m going to get out of here. I’m extremely disappointed. Before you think it’s just me looking down at you again, perhaps you should question why I would when no one will even answer why things are true.
 
If posts continue to be this ridiculous, I’m just going to leave. I’m trying to explain my stance, and you’re just being retarded about it. Just answer the question. You guys are worst than Bill Clinton at a trial!
Insults have no place in a rational discussion. None whatsoever.
 
genlemen, brothers,
the fact that Rainier22 spend so much time in the forum and asking such questions shows that he is searching for the Truth. of course sometimes it is desperate, but remember St. Paul. please , do not make offensive statement to him, otherwise he will go back to the darkness. he is our brother and probably is hearing something from God, but the fight in himself is not easy. i remember myself, some time ago…
 
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