Proving Real Presence

[Rafik_Gabriel]

Dear Jupiter: Christ said « upon this rock (=Kefa =Peter) I will build My Church »
There was only one Church, the Catholic (=Universal) Church. After 10 centuries a first schism (=division) created the Orthodox Church after a while divided into 16 churches.
King Henry VIII made another division in England because he wanted simply to divorce and remarried. Then we find Martin Luther and others who invented all kinds of ideas …
Today we got 4000 Christian denominations. Christ said my Church He never said Churchessssss.

 

[onthisrock]

Non-believers find Bible quotes of great substance

So when you eat the bread and drink the blood, Jesus “abides in you and you abide in Him”

Is this “abiding” a spiritual or a physical abiding?

Kam

Both.As with Christ you can’t seperate your soul from your body until your dying day when you hopefully meet him face to face. Please read all of the Gospel of John. It mentions 6 times about his body being true food and His blood true drink. He goes to correct those who thought it some parable (as John has NO parables, hence the gnostic Gospel. those who could not understand left him…he didn’t say “hey…I was speaking in parables so you may understand” like he did with parables of the past. He let them go. For one chapter of a gospel to state the same thing 6 times…I’m pretty sure Jesus meant it literally

 

[PJM]

Proving the Real Presance is the EASY part

Getting unbelievers to accept the REALITY is God’s job and our task is to only show them the “Way”; The Tuth and the Light.

Scriptually we find evidence fro FIVE differnt NT Authors:

Mt. 26: 26-28
Mk.14: 22-24
Lk. 22: 19-21
John Six [The BREAD OF LIFE DISCOURSE"
Paul 1st. Cor. 11:23-29 NOTE what Paul says:

**"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. **Do this in remembrance of me.” ** In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, ***you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. ***[27] Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner ***will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. ***[28] Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself."

THERE IS NO LOGICAL WAY THAT PAUL CAN BE REFURING TO JUST “ORDINARY BREAD AND WINE.”… HE KNOWS A miracle has taken place.

The uniformed and wrongly informed use this one passage from Jn. 6 :63 to dispute the reality of God’s FRom God the father, OF God the Son and By God the HS.

Jn.6:63 “It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.” THEY THINK CHRIST IS SPEAKING OF HIS HUMAN BODY:blush: NO IT IS HIS SOON TO BE RAISED GLORIFED BODY 41-42 "The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”
They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, `I have come down from heaven’?” THESE WERE FOLKS WHO KNEW OF CHRISTH OTHER MIRACLES.

Rom.8: 2 “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.” …1Cor.15: 45-46 “Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual” …2Cor.3: 6 “who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

JOHN 6:27:“Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal.”…35-36 “Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.** But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.”…50-55]" This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. ** I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” * The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”* So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

Unbelievers ARE effectively calling God a liar or a misleader

Then have them GOOGLE “Eucharistic Mircales”

God Bless,
Pat /PJM

 

[fxcc]

Why would He tell people they must break the Law of Moses by eating flesh and drinking blood? If the wine actually becomes blood, why were Gentiles instructed to abstain from blood in Acts 15?

Jesus never asked people to break the law of Moses i.e. His Father’s (His own) Law. Such an atrocious charge arises merely from your erroneous personal understanding of sacred Scripture.

What you’ve missed in your reading of Scripture is that the Mosaic Law referred ONLY to the blood of ANIMALS (which cannot give man life). The stricture against consumption of blood in the Old Law had nothing whatsoever to do with the saving flesh and blood of an incarnate God (without eating and drinking which we CANNOT have (eternal) life in us - as Jesus quite specifically and unequivocally made clear to us us. “That is why many of you are weak and sick and spiritually dead…” (1 Cor 11: 29-30).

Here’s a link to a presentation on the subject, which will hopefuly aid your understanding of the Eucharist - which is nothing short of the source, center and summit of an authentic Christian life:

4shared.com/office/II7MD_ME/Eucharist.html

God bless,

Francis

 

[fxcc]

Jesus never asked people to break the law of Moses i.e. His Father’s (His own) Law. Such an atrocious charge arises merely from your erroneous personal understanding of sacred Scripture.

What you’ve missed in your reading of Scripture is that the Mosaic Law referred ONLY to the blood of ANIMALS (which cannot give man life). The stricture against consumption of blood in the Old Law had nothing whatsoever to do with the saving flesh and blood of an incarnate God (without eating and drinking which we CANNOT have (eternal) life in us - as Jesus quite specifically and unequivocally made clear to us us. “That is why many of you are weak and sick and spiritually dead…” (1 Cor 11: 29-30).

Here’s a link to a presentation on the subject, which will hopefuly aid your understanding of the Eucharist - which is nothing short of the source, center and summit of an authentic Christian life. It addresses the point you raised about Mosaic Law.

4shared.com/office/II7MD_ME/Eucharist.html

God bless,

Francis

 

[melekali]

Non-believers find Bible quotes of great substance

So when you eat the bread and drink the blood, Jesus “abides in you and you abide in Him”

Is this “abiding” a spiritual or a physical abiding?

Kam

An absolutely real abiding…the answer is yes. It is never with God either or.

 

[fxcc]

Non-believers find Bible quotes of great substance

So when you eat the bread and drink the blood, Jesus “abides in you and you abide in Him”

Is this “abiding” a spiritual or a physical abiding?

Kam

In His incarnation as man, the Son of God (Jesus) assumed human flesh and blood and all human qualities (except for sin). He had no qualms in doing so, because man himself is created in the image and likeness of God.

The incarnation of God as man is permanent - Jesus is now, forever, fully God and fully man. His Divinity and His humanity cannot be separated. So, when we unite ourselves to Jesus, we do so totally, via the Eucharist - which is the greatest gift of God to man, the gift of Himself (His complete Self).

God bless you.

 

[groovsmyth]

If you look before Jesus talks about His body being bread of life you will see that Jesus is chastising disciples for following him because they got free food.
John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Steve, indeed Jesus was concerned like elsewhere in Scripture that the people misunderstood the Messiah to be a material / temporal king instead of a Suffering Servant and a Redemptive Savior. Zealots wanted to throw off Roman domination and be given material security. In many passages disciples attempt to sweep him up in their excitement. The most profound outpouring was less than a week before they had him killed when they feted him during his triumphal entry into Jerusalem.

Jesus saying that we must eat His flesh and drink his blood means that Jesus must be part of us in order to be saved. He said what He did to turn away the half-hearted believers,

No place in all of Scripture did Jesus say anything to intentionally turn people away. In fact, in his parable about the enemy sowing weeds in the farmer’s field Jesus emphsizes that pulling them up would disturb the wheat. The only scenario remotely selective was when he emphasized to the Syro-Phoenician woman that his primary mission was to the people of Abraham’s covenant. Later of course he indicated the New Covenant would include the Gentiles.

**“Does this shock you?” ** How could this question from Jesus apply to anything else other than what they were perceiving as “cannibalism?” They indeed were conscious of Mosaic Law prohibiting the consumption of any blood. But everywhere else whenever Jesus spoke in parables or metaphor, an explanation followed. Here, the exchange between Jesus and his followers is plain. And when they couldn’t accept it (like they couldn’t accept the Suffering Servant Messiah), they left. Jesus did not chase after them correcting their “misunderstanding.” If it were the case that Jesus meant for His Body and Blood to be symbolic and they perceived it as ghoulish why didn’t he pursue them and explain it more “clearly?”

Taken with the Synoptic accounts John 6 corroborates and EMPHASIZES the Real Presence.

 

[Carlan]

Either we believe Christ is GOD; PERFECT and unable to lie are we join the “unbelievers” who abandoned God. GOD JUDGES OUR ACTIONS OVER OUR WORDS!

SO WHO IS TO BE BELIEVED? CHRIST AND FIVE NT BIBLE AUTHORS OR WHAT
PROTESTANTS DESIRE TO PROCLAIM DUE TO LACK OF REAL FAITH AND RIGHT UNDERSTANDING.

God Bless,
Pat/PJM

I t has always baffled my why our Protestant friends believe so strongly in the Cana Miracle and miracle of the loaves but turn away from the central worship of the Truth in John6.Peace, Carlan

 

[po18guy]

I t has always baffled my why our Protestant friends believe so strongly in the Cana Miracle and miracle of the loaves but turn away from the central worship of the Truth in John6.Peace, Carlan

Once you realize that you have no authority to confect the Eucharist, it is only a matter of time before the Eucharist is re-defined as non-essential.

 

[Carlan]

Once you realize that you have no authority to confect the Eucharist, it is only a matter of time before the Eucharist is re-defined as non-essential.

Ahhh! Peace, Carlan

 

[fxcc]

I t has always baffled my why our Protestant friends believe so strongly in the Cana Miracle and miracle of the loaves but turn away from the central worship of the Truth in John6.Peace, Carlan

Our separated brethren, relying merely on personal, intellectual interpretation of scripture (despite their belief that the Holy Spirit guides them infallibly into “truths” contrary to the Truth of the Church) are unable to grasp the profound significance of either the Wedding at Cana (a typology of the intimate/conjugal/eucharistic union of the the “Groom” and His “Bride” - Christ and His Church - to the accomoaniment of a surfeit of the divine “wine of gladness”) or the miracle of the loaves and fishes (a precursor of the same Groom sustaining and nourishing the same Bride with her daily bread, her True Bread - His own sacrificed Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity).

Christ did not come merely like some benevolent superhero, to save us from the clutches of sin and death. No, He came for an even more primary purpose: to (re)unite separated mankind to Himself - and even more closely than a man and a woman become one. If Protestants properly understood this, they’d start to discover all the central truths of the true faith - the most profound of which is God’s total union with us in the Eucharist.

 

[po18guy]

Ahhh! Peace, Carlan

Once you reject the Church, the rest naturally follows. Sacred Tradition? Gone. Seven books of scripture? Gone. Five of the seven Sacraments? Gone. Baptism? Well, if you follow the “Romans Road”, it’s also gone. Soon, will even faith be gone?

 

[Rafik_Gabriel]

Peace of Christ:
(John 6:60) “Then many of his disciples who were listening said this saying is hard; who can accept it?"
(John 6:66) “After this, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him”.

Nevertheless Christ did not draw back his words He never said: wait you misunderstand my words, I meant only a symbol.

 

[DavidWJackson]

It is by faith we accept Christ. It is also through this same faith we accept the real presence of Christ in the eucharist. Christ’s body is spiritual at this time. Why would His body and blood not also be spiritual at this time? Is it to hard to accept in faith that the body of Christ is spiritually present in the eucharistic meal. Is a spiritual presence any less real than a carnal presence? Christ told us He would send the Holy Spirit to guide the Church. Christ also told us the gates of hell will not prevail agianst the Church. You show to have faith in Christ. Have faith in His words and trust the Church.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Protestants believe that their own soul is in their body without proof but they have to have proof that Jesus’ soul ca not only be in bread and wine but that the wine and bread change their substance even though you can’t see such a thing.

Why is it they believe in their own soul but LIMIT what Jesus who is God and created the universe out of nothing can do?

Look–if cosmic rays go through us all the time–then changing the substance of anything is child’s play for God!

The reason God chose to do the eucharist this way is to TEST the faith of us–do we believe or have faith only in things that we can see and seem reasonable to us–OR–

can we have faith in and believe in Jesus’ words even when they’re in CONTRADICTION to what we see with our eyes?

Protestants want to hollar about justification by faith–well I’ll tell you what REAL faith is:

believe in the Eucharist because Jesus told you so REGARDLESS of what your eyes see!

Do you have that much REAL faith oh non believing Protestant?

Will you believe what Christ’s church led by the apostles will tell you about that or will you trust your own eyes and what you think is reasonable?

The Romans called the early catholic christians cannables–even the Pagan Romans knew more about the eucharist than non believing Protestants do!

It isn’t really a matter of authority–it really is a matter of your will versus God’s will!

Look–if Jesus told me that the pyramids were there beneath the appearances of bread and wine–I’d believe Jesus!!!

The real question is do you believe Jesus that much or not?

I believe that Jesus who is God can do anything–I don’t have to understand everything–it is Jesus whose words are truth and life!

I’m betting my soul on Jesus and His church!

 

[Nicea325]

If the form is bread and wine, then it is bread and wine. If the bread turns to flesh why do people with gluten allergies need special bread at communion?
I realize I’m not a Biblical scholar, but how many ways can you interpret refrain from sexual immorality, meat offered to idols, meat of strangled animals, and from blood. This means don’t eat blood, food made from blood, or food with blood in it. And this verse doesn’t say avoid marriages with forbidden consanguinity, the word is porneia, sexual immorality, sexual sins, or fornications in the NT. Jews would have considered adultery, incest, homosexuality, bestiality, and sex before marriage to included in this category.
Since you are interested in interpretation, the Greek word for blood is aima, which can mean blood or grape juice. Check out Strong’s Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries if you want.

Ah noooo! Again ,who are you a mere FINITE creature knowing with absolute truth God cannot or would not give Himself (Body,Blood,Soul and Dvinity) through forms of bread and wine? You make yourself the Divine Judge and God your student. Your lack of faith has no bearing on absolute Truth.

First of all, Jesus spoke Aramaic,not Greek. So the premise to check out Strong’s Greek has no bearing at all. Second of all, did the Jews eat an actual tanglible lamb at Passover or mere cookie cut-outs symbolizing a lamb? You tell me.

 

[Nicea325]

Stevekehl:

Jesus was called by many names in Scripture, the Good Shepherd, the Lion of Judah, the Bright and Morning Star, the Way, the Light, the Life, the Lamb of God. He used some of these terms Himself, but was he literally a lamb, a light, a shepherd? These were symbolic terms used to illustrate a point.

Exactly! And may you please show us one verse in scripture where someone really believed Jesus was an actua door when he said: I am the door or the vine? That is not the case in John 6 at all.

What would you say about a church that demanded members to prove their faith by commanding a mountain to throw itself into the sea? Jesus said that too. (Matt. 21:21, Mark 11:23). The Holy Spirit was given to us so we may discern Scripture (35 million Protestant denominations notwithstanding).

35 million Protestant denominations? Since when has God been concerned with a divided Church and their stats?

 

[po18guy]

Exactly! And may you please show us one verse in scripture where someone really believed Jesus was an actua door when he said: I am the door or the vine? That is not the case in John 6 at all.

Jesus being born in the City of Bread and being lain in a manger - that is symbolic. Jesus saying I am the vine and you are the branches - that is symbolic. “The Father and I are One” is literal. “This is My Body” is literal. Note that the eating of Jesus’ Body and the drinking of His Blood was done after the Passover meal - thus it had meaning beyond the mere eating and drinking.

The truly sad point here is that those who base their doctrines and beliefs on a fragmentary and incomplete portion of revealed truth are often lead to opinions that diverge from (if not directly oppose) that same truth.

 

[teeboy]

We do not earn God’s grace. It flows via the Sacraments, but is freely given by God for His own purposes.

God is not God of the dead, but of the living. Abraham and poor Lazarus were depicted as alive. Can Jesus deceive us in this parable? As well, Jesus descended to the abode of the dead and preached the Gospel to the spirits in prison. Would He do that if they were “dead” or could not hear Him? Really?

We are parts of Jesus’ Body, correct? Which part of Jesus’ body is dead? Which part cannot know what the other parts are doing?

In order to have the one true interpretation of scripture, it must be revealed by God. Without God, scripture is just words and sentences. Words can have a lot of meanings. But, there can only be one truth.