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PJM
Guest
It’a a lack of FAITH not grantd by God and the necessary Grace from God to actually have it fully and completely. BUT your point is right on “the mark”
Thanks,
God Bless,
Pat /PJM
- Status
Thanks,
God Bless,
Pat /PJM
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PJM
Guest
Hi Steve, it’s a feel-good thought and a recent [past few hundred years invention of many Protestant Faiths]…but dear friend “faith” by itself is simply insufficient to merit salvation.
FAITH
Eph.2: 8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” –
Rom.1: 5 “through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,”
Rom.12: 6 “Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith”
John 3: 5 AND “Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” …verses 35-36 “the Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
Matt. 19:17 …”If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
James 2: 10 “For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.” … AND 18-26 “But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder.
Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.”
Salvation has always been a PROCESS FAR more demanding “only Faith” which is a FREE Gift from God.
Love and prayers,
Pat /PJM
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PJM
Guest
Hi Stephen,=stevekehl;9734433]We don’t have to observe kosher laws because we aren’t saved by our works. Also, Gentiles Christians are forbidden to eat blood, Acts 15:20 and 15:29. Looks like I’m not the only one who needs to study.
In John 6:40 Jesus also says everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life. If the Eucharist is so important why isn’t it in this sentence?
Lastly, Jesus is the author of life, no doubt, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t question interpretations of what Jesus says. It is a poor argument to contend that Jesus can do whatever He wants. How about this, I’m starting a doctrine that says all Christians must either become prostitutes or tax collectors. I have Scriptural backing too.
Matthew 21:31 Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you.
And I answer objections by saying Jesus can tell us to do whatever He wants, and if He wants us to be whores or tax collectors who are we to question Him?
Jesus couldn’t do whatever He wanted, He had to obey the will of the Father.
Dear friend in Christ your lack of right [and full] understanding is profound:blush:
Here for youe edification are a couple of tips:
- THE BIBLE HAS ONLY ONE INFALLIBLE RULE FOR RIGHT UNDERSTANDING.
- EXTREME CARE MUST BE USED IS CULLING A SINGLE PASSAGE UNSUPPORTED BY OTHERS ESPECIALLY WHEN ONE CLAIMS IT’S “THE ENTIRE TEACHING-TRUTH”
- “TO LOOK TO THE SON” MEANS ALL OF THE FOLLOWING:
UNDERSTAND THAT “PERSONAL INTERPREATION” IS NOT PERMITTED:
Matt.13:9-12 “He who has ears, let him hear." Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” and 2nd. Peter 3: 14-17 “There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability” and 2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.*** First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”***
I’ll be charitable and say this comment AT BEST is silly:shrug:
BUT YOU CAN?
CHOOSE TO BELIEVE WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE UNSUPPORED BY FACT
CHOOSE TO IGNORE CHRIST WORDS ON “ONE CHURC” AND ONE FAITH ONLY…
MT.10:1-8
MT.16:15-19
MT. 18:18
MT.28;16-20
JOHN 14;16-17
JOHN 17;15-19 JOHN 20-19-23
HERE’S AN EASY WAY TO LOOK THEM UP:quod.lib.umich.edu/r/rsv/
THERE IS SO MUCH MORE YOU DO NOT SEEM TO UNDERSTAND OR ACCEPT; YET IT IS CHRIST TEACHING.
God Bless you,
pat /PJM
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DavidWJackson
Guest
The “Didache” The writtings of the 12 apostles. Most consider it to be the first written Christian cannon of the Church predating the gospels. Anyhow, it speaks of the Eucharistic meal as being spiritual not simply symbolized bread and wine. See 10:5. I’ve included the whole text concerning the Eucharistic meal celabration. And, no I’m not some great knowlegable person. I just stumble across things because I read alot.
9:1 But as touching the eucharistic thanksgiving give ye thanks thus.
9:2 First, as regards the cup:
9:3 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the holy vine of Thy son David, which Thou madest known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:4 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:5 Then as regards the broken bread:
9:6 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the life and knowledge which Thou didst make known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:7 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:8 As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and being gathered together became one, so may Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom;
9:9 for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever and ever.
9:10 But let no one eat or drink of this eucharistic thanksgiving, but they that have been baptized into the name of the Lord;
9:11 for concerning this also the Lord hath said:
9:12 {Give not that which is holy to the dogs.}
10:1 And after ye are satisfied thus give ye thanks:
10:2 We give Thee thanks, Holy Father, for Thy holy name, which Thou hast made to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which Thou hast made known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
10:3 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
10:4 Thou, Almighty Master, didst create all things for Thy name’s sake, and didst give food and drink unto men for enjoyment, that they might render thanks to Thee;
10:5 but didst bestow upon us spiritual food and drink and eternal life through Thy Son.
10:6 Before all things we give Thee thanks that Thou art powerful;
10:7 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
10:8 Remember, Lord, Thy Church to deliver it from all evil and to perfect it in Thy love;
10:9 and {gather it together from the four winds}–even the Church which has been sanctified–into Thy kingdom which Thou hast prepared for it;
10:10 for Thine is the power and the glory for ever and ever.
10:11 May grace come and may this world pass away.
10:12 Hosanna to the God of David.
10:13 If any man is holy, let him come;
10:14 if any man is not, let him repent. Maran Atha. Amen.
10:15 But permit the prophets to offer thanksgiving as much as they desire.
9:1 But as touching the eucharistic thanksgiving give ye thanks thus.
9:2 First, as regards the cup:
9:3 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the holy vine of Thy son David, which Thou madest known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:4 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:5 Then as regards the broken bread:
9:6 We give Thee thanks, O our Father, for the life and knowledge which Thou didst make known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
9:7 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
9:8 As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and being gathered together became one, so may Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom;
9:9 for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever and ever.
9:10 But let no one eat or drink of this eucharistic thanksgiving, but they that have been baptized into the name of the Lord;
9:11 for concerning this also the Lord hath said:
9:12 {Give not that which is holy to the dogs.}
10:1 And after ye are satisfied thus give ye thanks:
10:2 We give Thee thanks, Holy Father, for Thy holy name, which Thou hast made to tabernacle in our hearts, and for the knowledge and faith and immortality, which Thou hast made known unto us through Thy Son Jesus;
10:3 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
10:4 Thou, Almighty Master, didst create all things for Thy name’s sake, and didst give food and drink unto men for enjoyment, that they might render thanks to Thee;
10:5 but didst bestow upon us spiritual food and drink and eternal life through Thy Son.
10:6 Before all things we give Thee thanks that Thou art powerful;
10:7 Thine is the glory for ever and ever.
10:8 Remember, Lord, Thy Church to deliver it from all evil and to perfect it in Thy love;
10:9 and {gather it together from the four winds}–even the Church which has been sanctified–into Thy kingdom which Thou hast prepared for it;
10:10 for Thine is the power and the glory for ever and ever.
10:11 May grace come and may this world pass away.
10:12 Hosanna to the God of David.
10:13 If any man is holy, let him come;
10:14 if any man is not, let him repent. Maran Atha. Amen.
10:15 But permit the prophets to offer thanksgiving as much as they desire.
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Nicea325
Guest
stevekehl:
I’ll ask again: Who are you a mere FINITE creature to say with absolute Truth, God did not,could not or would not give Himself through Bread and Wine?
I beg your pardon? I said: BODY,SOUL,DIVINITY and BLOOD! How much more God can one ask for? It is you alone who limits God to mere Spirit. What part of the Incarnation do you not grasp?
I’ll ask again: Who are you a mere FINITE creature to say with absolute Truth, God did not,could not or would not give Himself through Bread and Wine?
EXACTLY! Precisely why he gave Himself through the Eucharist! You separate God’s FLESHLY Body from His Spirit. Not uncommon dichotomy from Protestants: Either or OR.
You are just like Jews who left for their lack of faith. If it was not faith,then tell us all why they left?
Oh but He cannot be all above through the Eucharist? Again, you limit God to what suits you.
According to you a mere creature,but NOT according to God.
Greek was the language of COMMERCE. Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic. The original words of Jesus and the 12 was Aramaic,not Greek. Unscholarly to assume Jesus spoke Greek.
It is evident you know very little about the Passover meal. It was also a SACRIFICAL MEAL! Are you aware of typology?
And if Christ died once and for all,then why even bother going to Sunday Services? Why bother even leaving a Church for His followers? Right? Jesus took care of it all-right? Why pray? Why read the Bible?
po18guy
Well-known member
For those brothers and sisters who doubt (Non-Catholic, Non-Orthodox, non-Anglican, non-Lutheran, non-Episcopalian, non-Calvinist, non-Reformed, non-Presbyterian, etc.), a very quick and good book to read is This Is My Body in which former evangelical Mark Shea chronicles his transition from doubter to believer. From the author’s description:
51 pages. Read it Please!
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stevekehl
Guest
I noticed a lot of the verses you quoted included faith as a prerequisite for grace (no mention of the parents faith though). You use John 3 without referencing the most famous verse in this chapter. And James was correcting Christians who may have proclaimed faith, but bore no fruit in keeping with the Holy Spirit, thereby proving they had no faith. Without faith, baptism means nothing, without faith, works mean nothing. I’ve asked this before and never got a real good answer. What process did the thief on the cross go through to be saved? Do Catholics believe in death bed conversions? What if a person is on their way to church to get baptized and are in a car accident and die? We don’t have to prove our faith to God. Works are how we demonstrate God’s love to each other and to the lost.Hi Steve, it’s a feel-good thought and a recent [past few hundred years invention of many Protestant Faiths]…but dear friend “faith” by itself is simply insufficient to merit salvation.
Salvation has always been a PROCESS FAR more demanding “only Faith” which is a FREE Gift from God.
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stevekehl
Guest
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stevekehl
Guest
PJM ,
I can tell your concern for me is from the heart and I appreciate the spirit of your response. However, your words have only served to make my points stronger. Let me explain.
Thanks for the blessings and God bless you as well.
Your brother,
Steve
I can tell your concern for me is from the heart and I appreciate the spirit of your response. However, your words have only served to make my points stronger. Let me explain.
I share this conviction with you. The Church of Christ has a rule of study “Scripture interprets Scripture.” Which means Scriptures must agree. Take my example of the tax collectors and prostitutes, it would never hold up in the light of other Scriptures. This is why I have been citing Scriptures forbidding the consumption of human flesh and blood in the OT and NT, showing Jesus spoke symbolically, showing that the body of Jesus was broken only once and need not be sacrificed again, that God (and the whole Trinity by definition) is Spirit, and that Jesus will return to this world in the flesh only once.
As I mentioned above, I have cited many passages from the OT and NT.
This is what I meant when I mentioned Jesus spoke with a spiritual meaning not a literal one.Tear this temple down and I will rebuild it in 3 days. This was misunderstood by those who didn’t believe and not understood by the Apostles until after the resurrection. So to His words in John 6 were misunderstood by non-believers and they left.
You forgot verse 18 which tells us to grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. In other words, study your Scriptures. Because the Christians evidently had multiple letters from Paul, since Peter assumes they know Paul’s writings and their difficult passages. Peter doesn’t tell them to got to the local bishop or apostle but to grow in knowledge. Just as in First Peter he admonishes Christians three times to be alert and sober-minded. Peter expected each of us to study and be knowledgeable, able to give an answer for what we believe. If we do this we can give Scriptural backing for our beliefs, which I have done.
This is out of context. Peter has been speaking to the veracity of Jesus ministry. He started by testifying that the apostles witnessed all that Christ said and did, verifying reports of what Jesus taught and miracles (could the Gospels have been written and circulating before Peter’s death?) Peter then goes on to write about OT prophesies about the Messiah and how Jesus fulfilled them. He is saying these prophets did not make up their predictions, but were given them by God. Additionally, your case is weakened because outside of Revelations little of the NT is prophetic. If you look at my previous posts you’ll see I have made a careful study of Scripture and cited such in my arguments.
I was using aburdity to make a point. Obviously my proposed doctrine is insane. Did you decide this by yourself or did you consult the Magesterium first? You decided by yourself, yet you just cited Scripture claiming that we can’t make these decisions about interpretation. I made up this doctrine to counter the “God can do whatever He wants” defense of doctrine. People say God can do what He wants, or who are you to limit God when they can’t find Scripture to back up what they say.
I respectfully disagree with your assertion.
Yet in Acts 15 we see there were different expectations for Jewish and Gentile believers, Jews were expected to continue following the Law of Moses, even though the apostles agreed it was an unbearable load. Gentiles were expected to abstain from sexual sins, idols, meat sacrificed to idols and consuming blood. So Gentile worship could adapt according to local customs. For example, do you think it was a sin to conduct rites in a native language instead of Latin? Or to have a Bible in a native language instead of Latin?
Regarding Catholic doctrine that is true, but if I see something I disagree with I have to say something. When people say I have to believe in the real presence or go to hell, I have to disagree.
Thanks for the blessings and God bless you as well.
Your brother,
Steve
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stevekehl
Guest
The purpose of the Law was to preserve the Jews as an ethnic and culture. How many ancient cultures survive today, with their same language, religion, customs, and in the same land they occupied 3,000 years ago? The Jews had to be there for the arrival of the Messiah and because Israel and the Jews have a role to play in the end times.
How does Judah impregnating his widowed daughter-in-law point to the NT.
Was there an altar at the Last Supper? No. Was there an altar at the cross? No. Was our final sacrifice made on the cross? Yes. Has the cross replaced the altar? Yes. Do you have an altar on a chain around your neck? No. Why was the altar in the Temple destroyed in 70 AD, never to be rebuilt? Because the final sacrifice was made and sacrifices no longer needed to be done for the forgiveness of sins. The first Christians worshiped in synagogues, were there altars in the synagogues? No.
If Jesus handed me bread and said this is my body I would have understood he was speaking symbolically, since eating flesh violated Mosaic Law. If Jesus said tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in three days would you have thought Jesus was a mason. If Jesus used the Temple symbolically for his body why is it so hard to understand He did the same thing with bread.
Jesus was tempted by Satan, by definition a temptation must involve the possibility of sin. Jesus asked God to “take this cup from me” if it was possible. Clearly Jesus did not want to endure the trial before Him. Hebrews says Jesus was tempted to sin.
Hebrews 2:17 He had to be one of us, so that he could serve God as our merciful and faithful high priest and sacrifice himself for the forgiveness of our sins. 18 And now that Jesus has suffered and was tempted, he can help anyone else who is tempted.
As for you, a mere human, constructing some doctrine based on your understanding or interpretation of the Word of God, or assumed authority therefrom, how does that have. To say that Jesus did not have free will is to claim that He was not fully human. Still he did not sin and was a perfect sacrifice. Praise His holy name.
The problem is that the first four are explicitly stated in Scripture. The last two aren’t.
Totally agree.
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DavidWJackson
Guest
Somethings can’t be explained. They must be accepted by faith, if accepted at all. Read Mat. 13:14-17 emphasis on vs. 17.
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PJM
Guest
Hi Steve
You raise some very interestering points. However your understanding even of them is incomplete.
WHILE THERE ARE MANY GUIDES AND TIPS TO BIBLE STUDY;THERE IS ONLY ONE INFALLIBLE “RULE” FOR RIGHT UNDERSTANDING:
"NEVER-EVER CAN, MAY, DOES ONE PASSAGE OR VERSE INVALIDATE ANOTHER TEACHING, MAKE IT VOID OR ONVER-RULE IT. WERE SUCH EVEN THE SLIGHEST POSSIBILITY THE BIBLE WOULD BE COMPLETELY WORTHLESS TO TEACH OR LEARN ONES FAITH.
Actually GRACE must come before faith. WHY? Because “faith through grace” is a gift from God. Here are just a few evidences of this:
Eph.2: 8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” –
Rom.1: 5 “through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,”
**Rom.12: 6 **“Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith”
Your understanding that “Faith” is essential is only partly correct.
Despites the inovative recent teachings of Protestantism of “faith alone” [LOOK FOR A private message from me] is sufficient for salvation; IT"S BILICALLY not proveable:shrug:
Let’s take John Chapter 3 for example
3-6 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”… Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
14 -17 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
35-36 “the Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand. He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.” SAME VERSE
We find in John 3 a series of directly related Teachings of Christ.
- The absolute need for Faith which does NOT have to precede baptism; which can FLOW from the graces of baptism.
- The absolute need for Christian Baptism which makes POSSIBE one’s salvation efforts.
- That salvation must and does flow through Christ alone
- That salvation is always a process. Here Christ articulates Four of the required conditions: Grace; Baptism; Faith/ Belief in Christ as God and OBEDIENCE to ALL that Christ Teaches including Obedience to the Commandments [Mt. 19:17]…
gOD bLESS,
pat/PJM
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PJM
Guest
Christ feeds five thousand with five loaves. He walks upon the sea and discourses of the bread of life.
STEVE WHAT SPEECH IS LITERAL AND WHAT IS SPIRITAUL HERE? HOW DO YOU
DECIDE AND ON WHAT AUTHORITY?9-13 And Jesus took the loaves: and when he had given thanks, he distributed to them that were set down. In like manner also of the fishes, as much as they would. And when they were filled, he said to his disciples: Gather up the fragments that remain, lest they be lost. They gathered up therefore, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves,
26 -27 Jesus answered them, and said: Amen, amen I say to you, you seek me, not because you have seen miracles, but because you did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you. For him hath God, the Father, sealed
31-35 “Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.”
36 But I said unto you, that you also have seen me, and you believe not.
**38-40 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. … And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day. **
41-42 The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven. And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven?
43-44 Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day
47-51 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world
53-55 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
56-57 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him
61-65 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.”
**Christ did NOT call them back but asked His Apostles **IF they wanted to abandon Him too? They replied: 68-70 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
How do you explain some understood and accepted Christ teaching but those of a “cardinal mind” walked away. Christ is speaking of His soon to be Glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity; the reference “to the Spirit” which “is God John 4:23-24
Wish we had more space. Send me a PM
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Nicea325
Guest
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DavidWJackson
Guest
After thumbing through the Catholic Catechism by John A. Hardon, S.J. I found a seven page teaching on this subject, entitled “REAL PRESENCE”. The Eucharistic Bread is the true body of Christ and the Eucharistic wine is the true blood of Christ. Not spiritual or symbolic, but truly the real presence of our Lord and Saviour. This is a matter of faith alone. A faith we can only obtain through God and the traditional teachings of the Church. For our Protestent members, the - traditional teachings of the Church - include: Holy Scripture, the oral teachings passed down from the apostles and the Divine enlightenment of the Saints. All of which when combined make up the fullness of truth. The teachings of the Holy Trinity. Please read from the Catechism of the Catholic Church for the full discourse and proof to the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic Meal.
po18guy
Well-known member
Well stated. I think that it behooves all Christians, as well as those pondering Christianity, to examine and cast aside all teachings that do not accord with the earliest Christian beliefs and practices.
Those protestant/bible Christians who deny Christ’s presence in the Holy Eucharist have, by their own authority, declared their brother and sister Lutherans, Anglicans and Episcopalians to be in error and, potentially, idol worshippers. That is deadly serious claim to make. Such a person should enter into discourse with their protestant brothers to seek understanding before defaulting against the oldest Christian Church on earth.
po18guy
Well-known member
This is the crux of the matter. So far, this question has been completely avoided. It is the elephant in his living room. Until and unless he faces up to the challenge, further discourse has little value.STEVE WHAT SPEECH IS LITERAL AND WHAT IS SPIRITAUL HERE? HOW DO YOU
How much more enlightening would be the conversation with his fellow protestants in the Lutheran, Anglican or Episcopalian communions - whom he implicitly declares to be in serious doctrinal error.
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Rafik_Gabriel
Guest
Dear David W Jackson
I am really glad that you read father Hardon. I do consider him as my best teacher and one of the modern doctors of the Catholic Church. It is because of him that I was inspired to make this video on the Eucharist.
Blessings, Rafik Gabriel
I am really glad that you read father Hardon. I do consider him as my best teacher and one of the modern doctors of the Catholic Church. It is because of him that I was inspired to make this video on the Eucharist.
Blessings, Rafik Gabriel
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stevekehl
Guest
I have answered it. Based on the Scriptures forbidding the consumption of blood in the OT and NT, Galatians 3:10 says those who claim to follow the law but do not are cursed and James 2:10 says breaking one part of the law violates the whole of the law. Since Jesus can not violate His own law and since He was not cursed He could not have given flesh and blood to the apostles. Unless you count the Scriptures as no authority. I have cited Scriptures that say Christ was sacrificed once for all and His flesh need not be sacrificed again and His blood need not be spilled again. I have cited Scriptures saying Jesus will return in the flesh to earth accompanied by unmistakable signs and on the clouds in glory. I have cited Scripture where Jesus Himself says if anyone claims He had returned in a secret place or in a hidden way, don’t believe it. I have even shown in the sixth chapter of John where Jesus says those who come to Him and believe will never hunger or thirst again (v. 35), clearly speaking symbolically. The person who eats His flesh will dwell in Christ and Christ in him (56), since this can’t literally happen, it must mean spiritually. And the Spirit gives life, the flesh avails nothing (v. 63).
I don’t imply things; if I think it, I say it (this is a serious character flaw when arguing with my wife :crutches: ). My disagreement is with the teaching that we must believe in transubstantiation if we want to get to heaven. My contention is that it has nothing to do with our salvation. To believe in Christ is what is required. The CC teaches we must go to confession, we must do penance, we must believe in transubstantiation, we must take communion weekly, we must attend church weekly, we must baptize infants, we must agree with everything the CC teaches. I simply don’t believe those things are required and here are some verses that have lead me to believe that.
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
Romans 14:2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Romans 14:18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. 20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats.
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, **work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. **
1Peter 2:4 As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
1John 2:27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
1John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
I know doctrine should not be built on single verses, but for the sake of space I have given you some verses to show that I have seriously studied my faith. I’m not just repeating what I’ve been told over and over. All this being said, I have never, and would never tell someone they can’t believe in transubstantiation. If you want to believe in it, go ahead. But don’t tell me I’m not a real Christian because I don’t.
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