Proving the Historical Accuracy of Tobit (Tobias)

[Luke65]

I didn’t know ECF were omniscient- how could they possibly know information that was not available to them for centuries…Read Pius XII Biblical Documents- I guess he also was a modernist shill((I’ve been told that before!).

To repeat:

“Its actually because we have complete faith that when the Church Fathers were unanimous in their interpretation of Scripture its because the Holy Spirit guided them to the truth, as the Church teaches.”

First Vatican Council
SESSION 2

1. Likewise I accept sacred scripture
   • according to that sense which Holy Mother Church held and holds,
     o since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures;
   • nor will I ever receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers.

 

[juliamajor]

To repeat:

“Its actually because we have complete faith that when the Church Fathers were unanimous in their interpretation of Scripture its because the Holy Spirit guided them to the truth, as the Church teaches.”

First Vatican Council
SESSION 2

1. Likewise I accept sacred scripture
   • according to that sense which Holy Mother Church held and holds,
     o since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures;
   • nor will I ever receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers.

You keep quoting not answering were they omniscient- and you keep quoting things that back you up(supposedly) and ignore those inconvenient to you.Each document falls upon the other -one expands or clarifies the other. -doctrines evolve- and knowledge not available in the past effects the more recent documents. I just didn’t garner my information willy- nilly-but was taught at the Archdiocese of NY seminary.Not exactly a modernist hell-hole.So I’ll trust the Documents I studied and the knowledge taught me- and leave it at that.

 

[NotWorthy]

I just quoted where the Catholic Encyclopedia summed up their view:

“Until recently there never was question among Catholics in regard to the historicity of Tobias. It was among the historical books of the Old Testament, the Fathers had always referred to both elder and younger Tobias and to the other personages of the narratives as to facts and not to fancies.”

And it still is:

New American Bible

The Historical Books
…
Tobit

I’ve got two questions or concerns then.

1. When one says the Fathers had referred to them as facts and narratives, one usually provides examples of the Fathers’ quotes.
2. I wasn’t aware that Tobias is considered one of the Historical Books.

Appended Note: I now see that it is considered “Historical”, but it still seems to be a historical fiction, with facts and literary devices put together to teach Jews and Christians alike.

 

[NotWorthy]

Luke65,

Here’s the problem that no one has been able to answer, other than pointing at two books that they were unwilling to read themselves just to prove their points.

Notworthy:

But, to your point, then can you please address the problem I had with the destruction of Jerusalem being discussed as a past event in a story that took place around 7th-8th century BC?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Is God so powerless that He can’t take true events and teach the same?

Its actually because we have complete faith that when the Church Fathers were unanimous in their interpretation of Scripture its because the Holy Spirit guided them to the truth, as the Church teaches. And I’m sorry you find their interpretation “very materialistic and extremely troubling” and that its an indication that their faith was “weak”.

newadvent.org/cathen/14749c.htm
“Until recently there never was question among Catholics in regard to the historicity of Tobias. It was among the historical books of the Old Testament, the Fathers had always referred to both elder and younger Tobias and to the other personages of the narratives as to facts and not to fancies.”

Denying the historicity of the Book of Tobit is by definition a liberal, modernist view. You can have it, but we’ll follow the faith of our Fathers. And we’ll find out on Judgment Day which pleases God more - faith or “reason”. Here’s a sneak peak:

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 18:1-4)

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I just quoted where the Catholic Encyclopedia summed up their view:

“Until recently there never was question among Catholics in regard to the historicity of Tobias. It was among the historical books of the Old Testament, the Fathers had always referred to both elder and younger Tobias and to the other personages of the narratives as to facts and not to fancies.”

And it still is:

New American Bible

The Historical Books
…
Tobit

I love your signature!!!

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I’ve got two questions or concerns then.

1. When one says the Fathers had referred to them as facts and narratives, one usually provides examples of the Fathers’ quotes.
2. I wasn’t aware that Tobias is considered one of the Historical Books.

Appended Note: I now see that it is considered “Historical”, but it still seems to be a historical fiction, with facts and literary devices put together to teach Jews and Christians alike.

So, essentially what you are saying is that proof was provided to you, but you will interpret what truth really is according to your own “reason”.

 

[xsuasox]

Something that could be helpful to some, or maybe not…

It has been my instruction to learn that the Bible is indeed the inspired word of God and that it contains no theological error. Basically, the Bible contains all that we need to know for our salvation and that it is 100% true in this regard. It doesn’t have to be true to the T about historical places or events, or scientific knowledge. It has to be true about God in what it tells us about Him and what it tells us about us in relation to Him.

At least this is what the Abbot of my college taught us in theology class, and from what I have observed these 2 years, he is a very wise and Godly man.

 

[Luke65]

I love your signature!!!

Thanks, Cherie, and keep the faith!

 

[NotWorthy]

So, essentially what you are saying is that proof was provided to you, but you will interpret what truth really is according to your own “reason”.

Giving me two books to read, without reading them yourself, is not what I call proof.

It would be like saying, “Here’s the Bible” in answer to “Does Jesus say He is God”.

Neither you, nor anybody else, has been able to explain my one simple point about the destruction of the Temple being used as a past event in a story that preceded the destruction of the Temple.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Giving me two books to read, without reading them yourself, is not what I call proof.

It would be like saying, “Here’s the Bible” in answer to “Does Jesus say He is God”.

Neither you, nor anybody else, has been able to explain my one simple point about the destruction of the Temple being used as a past event in a story that preceded the destruction of the Temple.

Why should I read these books? I don’t question the historical accuracy of Tobit and Tobias. If I were questioning this, then I would read the books to find the answers. But you claim it is up to me to read these books and then spoonfeed you the answers…when you are quite capable of reading these books yourself.
And then you claim that I have no answers for you. You are the one with questions. The answers are provided in the books which the titles have been shared with you. it is up to you to do the research…not me. I have research to do for my own questions.

You seem to be looking for excuses to continue doubting the Truth of the Bible as historically accurate.
I am sure that in today’s moral relativism, you will find your excuses to be “justified”. But what do you think Jesus will say for the Truth of your excuses?
Hope this helps you to understand better what is your responsibility from what is the responsibility of the rest of us. We have fullfilled our duty. Now you must do your share and actually find the books and do some searching for yourself.

 

[NotWorthy]

Why should I read these books? I don’t question the historical accuracy of Tobit and Tobias. If I were questioning this, then I would read the books to find the answers. But you claim it is up to me to read these books and then spoonfeed you the answers…when you are quite capable of reading these books yourself.
And then you claim that I have no answers for you. You are the one with questions. The answers are provided in the books which the titles have been shared with you. it is up to you to do the research…not me. I have research to do for my own questions.

There’s a song that is going on in my head. Bill Withers, “Will it go round in circles…”. It seems rather apropos to this topic.

When I reference a book to prove a point, I usually don’t throw the book in someone’s lap and tell them to read it. I usually use the book to quote my point, and then offer them to read it themself.

Once again, it would be like somebody asking, “Who is King David’s son who took up his throne”. I could answer “Solomon” and tell them that they will find it in Kings and Chronicles and then site the chapters and verses for their own viewing. Or I could toss the Old Testament into their laps and tell them its in there, only to call them lazy if they don’t read the entire book to get their answer.

“Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky”

You seem to be looking for excuses to continue doubting the Truth of the Bible as historically accurate.

Let me ask you. Do you believe in the 6 days Creation story? Genesis is one of the Historical books, so am I forced to believe in the 6 days of Creation?

“Will it go round in circles…”

I am sure that in today’s moral relativism, you will find your excuses to be “justified”. But what do you think Jesus will say for the Truth of your excuses?

I am referencing Orthodox Catholic study materials when I raise my questions. There’s a difference between the Navarre Study Bible and say, the Message Bible. Why does that make me a moral relativist?

“Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky…”

Hope this helps you to understand better what is your responsibility from what is the responsibility of the rest of us. We have fullfilled our duty. Now you must do your share and actually find the books and do some searching for yourself.

I’m sorry, but you’ve proven that you have no answers and that you are the one that is rather lazy. If this were a burning question in my heart, then I would research it. But in a discussion forum, it seems that someone may have the answers. Evidently not. Until then, I’ll stick to what I’ve learned in the Navarre.

“I’ve got a song that ain’t got no melody… I’m a gonna sing it to my friends…”

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

There’s a song that is going on in my head. Bill Withers, “Will it go round in circles…”. It seems rather apropos to this topic.

When I reference a book to prove a point, I usually don’t throw the book in someone’s lap and tell them to read it. I usually use the book to quote my point, and then offer them to read it themself.

Once again, it would be like somebody asking, “Who is King David’s son who took up his throne”. I could answer “Solomon” and tell them that they will find it in Kings and Chronicles and then site the chapters and verses for their own viewing. Or I could toss the Old Testament into their laps and tell them its in there, only to call them lazy if they don’t read the entire book to get their answer.

“Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky”

Let me ask you. Do you believe in the 6 days Creation story? Genesis is one of the Historical books, so am I forced to believe in the 6 days of Creation?

I absolutely do believe in the 6 days Creation story.
“Will it go round in circles…”

I am referencing Orthodox Catholic study materials when I raise my questions. There’s a difference between the Navarre Study Bible and say, the Message Bible. Why does that make me a moral relativist?

“Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky…”

I’m sorry, but you’ve proven that you have no answers and that you are the one that is rather lazy. If this were a burning question in my heart, then I would research it. But in a discussion forum, it seems that someone may have the answers. Evidently not. Until then, I’ll stick to what I’ve learned in the Navarre.

“I’ve got a song that ain’t got no melody… I’m a gonna sing it to my friends…”

If it was MY question, I would certainly research it. Seeing as how it is YOUR question, and I am a very busy person, I do not feel inclined to read it. The only thing I need to know to prove that it is an historical accurate story is to read it in the Bible. To me that is all that it takes, because I believe in all of God’s words. Not just some of the ones that my human reason can understand.

 

[NotWorthy]

If it was MY question, I would certainly research it. Seeing as how it is YOUR question, and I am a very busy person, I do not feel inclined to read it. The only thing I need to know to prove that it is an historical accurate story is to read it in the Bible. To me that is all that it takes, because I believe in all of God’s words. Not just some of the ones that my human reason can understand.

Well, if I was going to answer a question by referencing a book as my source, I certainly would have at least read that source. If you are too busy to look up my answer, that’s fine. You can suggest a reading, and then refrain from calling me lazy since I’m unwilling to purchase two books and read them in their entirety just to get this answer.

I thought I made it rather clear my thoughts on handing someone the bible and saying that David’s son is in there somewhere, he’s just going to have to read the whole thing in order to get his answer.

By your reckoning, the entire Forums section of “Sacred Scripture” would have the same answer - “Buy the Bible and read it. Your answer is in there. What’s wrong? Are you too lazy to get your answer yourself?”

Also, just to clarify, in your last response, you answered quite clearly,

I absolutely do believe in the 6 days Creation story.[/I]

Does that mean that I don’t believe in all of God’s word if I believe that Creation took place over several million years?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Well, if I was going to answer a question by referencing a book as my source, I certainly would have at least read that source. If you are too busy to look up my answer, that’s fine. You can suggest a reading, and then refrain from calling me lazy since I’m unwilling to purchase two books and read them in their entirety just to get this answer.

I thought I made it rather clear my thoughts on handing someone the bible and saying that David’s son is in there somewhere, he’s just going to have to read the whole thing in order to get his answer.

By your reckoning, the entire Forums section of “Sacred Scripture” would have the same answer - “Buy the Bible and read it. Your answer is in there. What’s wrong? Are you too lazy to get your answer yourself?”

Also, just to clarify, in your last response, you answered quite clearly,
Does that mean that I don’t believe in all of God’s word if I believe that Creation took place over several million years?

Notworthy, you are the one that asked me about the story of Creation? I said that I most certainly do believe that God created the world in 6 days, just as the Bible says. What is point of asking me my opinion on your beliefs about it? The Bible doesn’t say that God created the world over several million years. Nor did Jesus state that when He was walking among man on earth. Certainly for Him to say something like that would have been noteworthy, don’t ya think?
So, since you have asked me a direct question, I shall have to answer you directly. I believe that God’s words are true and accurate exactly as they are. The Church states that we should neither remove or take away anything from Scripture. To take away 6 days is a violation. And to replace it with several million is another violation.
Does that answer your question?

 

[NotWorthy]

Notworthy, you are the one that asked me about the story of Creation? I said that I most certainly do believe that God created the world in 6 days, just as the Bible says. What is point of asking me my opinion on your beliefs about it? The Bible doesn’t say that God created the world over several million years. Nor did Jesus state that when He was walking among man on earth. Certainly for Him to say something like that would have been noteworthy, don’t ya think?
So, since you have asked me a direct question, I shall have to answer you directly. I believe that God’s words are true and accurate exactly as they are. The Church states that we should neither remove or take away anything from Scripture. To take away 6 days is a violation. And to replace it with several million is another violation.
Does that answer your question?

Yes, it shows me that you are in direct contradiction of what the Church teaches on Creation. She teaches that She doesn’t know whether the World was created in 6 days or over millions of years and that we, as loyal Catholics, can believe either way (providing we stay within the parameters of acceptable interpretation on Creation… in other words, we can’t simply create false dichotomies).

My point to that question was that, by my belief that the world was created over millions of years does not, in any way, take away from my belief in the Bible and what God tells us through His written Word.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Yes, it shows me that you are in direct contradiction of what the Church teaches on Creation. She teaches that She doesn’t know whether the World was created in 6 days or over millions of years and that we, as loyal Catholics, can believe either way (providing we stay within the parameters of acceptable interpretation on Creation… in other words, we can’t simply create false dichotomies).

My point to that question was that, by my belief that the world was created over millions of years does not, in any way, take away from my belief in the Bible and what God tells us through His written Word.

Is that your justification for disbelief that the book of Tobit is historically accurate?
That just proves my point.
Once people feel free to pick and choose what they will believe to be accurate in the Word of God, every word of God is at risk.
And even if you, yourself, continue to believe in the Last Supper and death and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus…what makes you think that others just like you will not feel totally justified in believing that those things do not make sense…and therefore must just be alagories?
You and I have had this debate before.

 

[NotWorthy]

Is that your justification for disbelief that the book of Tobit is historically accurate?
That just proves my point.
Once people feel free to pick and choose what they will believe to be accurate in the Word of God, every word of God is at risk.
And even if you, yourself, continue to believe in the Last Supper and death and Resurrection of our Lord Jesus…what makes you think that others just like you will not feel totally justified in believing that those things do not make sense…and therefore must just be alagories?
You and I have had this debate before.

It’s simple. You teach the truth, but only what you know is the truth. You don’t “hedge your bets” in the hopes that that some people may not be led astray.

If the Church doesn’t know whether the 6 day creation is true or not, She should not demand that we believe it. And that is the case. If I don’t believe it, that should not bring my belief in God’s Word into question.

If the Church hasn’t said emphatically that all historical data in Tobit is true or not, than I shouldn’t be held in question simply by raising questions.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

It’s simple. You teach the truth, but only what you know is the truth. You don’t “hedge your bets” in the hopes that that some people may not be led astray.

If the Church doesn’t know whether the 6 day creation is true or not, She should not demand that we believe it. And that is the case. If I don’t believe it, that should not bring my belief in God’s Word into question.

If the Church hasn’t said emphatically that all historical data in Tobit is true or not, than I shouldn’t be held in question simply by raising questions.

So how do you KNOW that Jesus changed bread and wine into His Body and Blood during the Last Supper?
How do you know that Jesus rose from the dead?
How do you know that Jesus ascended into Heaven?
How do you know that the Apostles, disciples and Mother of God were filled with the Holy Spirit?
For that matter, how do you know that Mary was visited by the Archangel Gabriel for the Anunciation?
For that matter, how do you know that Jesus was an immaculate conception? How do you know that He wasn’t born of both Joseph and Mary through sexual intercourse?

Fact is, there is no PROOF for any of these things. So how do you tell someone that they must believe these Truths, but not others found in the Bible? How do you say that even though the things about Jesus make as little or less sense than other things in the Bible, one has to believe the things said about Jesus, but not about the rest?

It sounds an aweful lot like grasping at straws and contradictions.

Yet, if we just believe with the Faith of a child, just as Jesus told us to…ALL that is written in the Bible, then the above stated problem goes away.

Someone with intelligence should be able to understand this.

 

[diggerdomer]

So how do you KNOW that Jesus changed bread and wine into His Body and Blood during the Last Supper?
How do you know that Jesus rose from the dead?
How do you know that Jesus ascended into Heaven?
How do you know that the Apostles, disciples and Mother of God were filled with the Holy Spirit?
For that matter, how do you know that Mary was visited by the Archangel Gabriel for the Anunciation?
For that matter, how do you know that Jesus was an immaculate conception? How do you know that He wasn’t born of both Joseph and Mary through sexual intercourse?

Fact is, there is no PROOF for any of these things. So how do you tell someone that they must believe these Truths, but not others found in the Bible? How do you say that even though the things about Jesus make as little or less sense than other things in the Bible, one has to believe the things said about Jesus, but not about the rest?

It sounds an aweful lot like grasping at straws and contradictions.

Yet, if we just believe with the Faith of a child, just as Jesus told us to…ALL that is written in the Bible, then the above stated problem goes away.

Someone with intelligence should be able to understand this.

Yes everything in the Bible is true, and a lot of it really happened as well.

Jesus was not the immaculate conception, that’s a Catholic teaching (not found in Scripture) that refers to Mary.

The original posting to this thread stated

I’m looking for help defending the historical accuracy of the Book of Tobit. I know I’m probably going to get a lot of responses from rather liberal Catholics who don’t believe the Bible has to be historically accurate but, I’m one of those Catholics who does. So, that being said, I’m only looking for responses from people who also believe the same about Scripture.

This amuses me. What I gather from that statement is that the person posting it is not really looking to learn, but looking for others to confirm what he or she already believes. Only those who “believe the same about Scripture” are welcome to reply. Which of course begs the question of whether the OP agrees with the Catholic approach to Scripture.

I’d love to continue fruitful discussion on this thread, but given those initial criteria it sure seems that the OP is only interested in hearing from those who will support his/her point of view, regardless of what the Catholic Church teaches.

Cheers