Provoo Communion Validates Anglican Orders

[EvangelCatholic]

When you say American Lutherans, Are you including LCMS and WELS? If not, Would it not be fair for them to be as specific as possible?

Also, it would help if we can properly identify who are in the Porvoo Communion:

They also say:

But it fails to identify which did and which didn’t.

Further in their statement they say this:

And again fail to identify the Churches with the issues or with the continuity.

Sorry Jose, for not identifying who is Provoo Thanks for adding info.

In North America two Lutheran bodies in full communion with Anglicans; the ELCA with TEC in the U.S. The LCC = Lutheran Church - Canada held a joint assembly with the Anglican Church of Canada [ACC]: lutheranworld.org/content/lwf-general-secretary-junge-lauds-joint-witness-canada%E2%80%99s-lutherans-and-anglicans

Rome hasn’t challenged apostolic succession of Lutherans in Scandinavia/ Baltic, to my knowledge.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Sorry Jose, for not identifying who is Provoo Thanks for adding info.

In North America two Lutheran bodies in full communion with Anglicans; the ELCA with TEC in the U.S. The LCC = Lutheran Church - Canada held a joint assembly with the Anglican Church of Canada [ACC]: lutheranworld.org/content/lwf-general-secretary-junge-lauds-joint-witness-canada%E2%80%99s-lutherans-and-anglicans

Rome hasn’t challenged apostolic succession of Lutherans in Scandinavia/ Baltic, to my knowledge.

I spoke with a Canon Lawyer today for my Diocese and the Catholic Church, SSPX, Orthodox Churches and a few in the Utrecht union (depends on the Bishop but most have lost it) are the only ones with a valid priesthood and valid Apostolic Succession. Sorry EC, Rome does not see any Lutherans to have a valid priesthood and Apostolic Succession.

If Rome declares such a denomination to have a valid Apostolic Succession, then the Church will state as much.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I spoke with a Canon Lawyer today for my Diocese and the Catholic Church, SSPX, Orthodox Churches and a few in the Utrecht union (depends on the Bishop but most have lost it) are the only ones with a valid priesthood and valid Apostolic Succession. Sorry EC, Rome does not see any Lutherans to have a valid priesthood and Apostolic Succession.

If Rome declares such a denomination to have a valid Apostolic Succession, then the Church will state as much.

You are assuming something that has never been challenged by Rome. This is different from the Church of England.

 

[aidanbradypop]

You are assuming something that has never been challenged by Rome. This is different from the Church of England.

I am not assuming anything. You are assuming they do, however, the canon lawyer stated otherwise. I can ask the Archbishop if you would like?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Sorry Jose, for not identifying who is Provoo Thanks for adding info.

In North America two Lutheran bodies in full communion with Anglicans; the ELCA with TEC in the U.S. The LCC = Lutheran Church - Canada held a joint assembly with the Anglican Church of Canada [ACC]: lutheranworld.org/content/lwf-general-secretary-junge-lauds-joint-witness-canada%E2%80%99s-lutherans-and-anglicans

Rome hasn’t challenged apostolic succession of Lutherans in Scandinavia/ Baltic, to my knowledge.

No prob, I leave things out as well, lol.

My friend, if Rome would challenge all the individual denominations claims - there would be no time for preaching the Gospel… just saying

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Lutherans reaching out to Papa:

51. The use of the sign of the historic episcopal succession does not
by itself guarantee the fidelity of a church to every aspect of the apostolic
faith, life and mission. There have been schisms in the history of
churches using the sign of historic succession. Nor does the sign guarantee
the personal faithfulness of the bishop. Nonetheless, the retention
of the sign remains a permanent challenge to fidelity and to unity,
a summons to witness to, and a commission to realize more fully, the
permanent characteristics of the Church of the apostles.

Anglicans, Orthodox welcome enclosure with the Vatican

 

[aidanbradypop]

Lutherans reaching out to Papa:

51. The use of the sign of the historic episcopal succession does not
by itself guarantee the fidelity of a church to every aspect of the apostolic
faith, life and mission. There have been schisms in the history of
churches using the sign of historic succession. Nor does the sign guarantee
the personal faithfulness of the bishop. Nonetheless, the retention
of the sign remains a permanent challenge to fidelity and to unity,
a summons to witness to, and a commission to realise more fully, the
permanent characteristics of the Church of the apostles.

Agree to disagree?

 

[Picky_Picky]

The Church of Denmark has now joined the Porvoo communion

 

[Michael57]

Anglicans, Orthodox welcome enclosure with the Vatican

I am sure they would, but ordaining women and the openly unchaste homosexual (among other things) will not move unity one step closer. It separates and complicates further.

In fact, in heading off in such a radical & liberal fashion, almost assures that unity and full communion will never take place.

To me, it’s asking Rome’s approval of their further disobedience to the Catholic Church and her doctrines, and kind of like saying “Stick it in your eye!” in the process.

If unity was truly important here, then the authorities in the Anglican and Lutheran churches should not further increase the abyss between themselves and the Catholic Church.

 

[pablope]

Lutherans reaching out to Papa:

51. The use of the sign of the historic episcopal succession does not
by itself guarantee the fidelity of a church to every aspect of the apostolic
faith, life and mission. There have been schisms in the history of
churches using the sign of historic succession. Nor does the sign guarantee
the personal faithfulness of the bishop. Nonetheless, the retention
of the sign remains a permanent challenge to fidelity and to unity,
a summons to witness to, and a commission to realize more fully, the
permanent characteristics of the Church of the apostles.

Anglicans, Orthodox welcome enclosure with the Vatican

In all honesty…EC…do you think having a woman bishop in the picture is helping to heal the schism with Rome and other groups who oppose women priests and bishops?

And what kind of unity do you envision?

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I am sure they would, but ordaining women and the openly unchaste homosexual (among other things) will not move unity one step closer…

That is not correct. If single, a priest must live a chase life that either leads to marriage or celibacy. Divorce is allowed only under extraordinary circumstances.

 

[Stephen168]

That is not correct. If single, a priest must live a chase life that either leads to marriage or celibacy. Divorce is allowed only under extraordinary circumstances.

I am a Lutheran who lives in a state that has gay marriage [New York]; my parish performs gay marriages.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Stephen168:
The priest must be chase in marriage and/ or celibacy.

These norms do not necessarily apply to the laity.

 

[Stephen168]

The priest must be chase in marriage and/ or celibacy.

These norms do not necessarily apply to the laity.

The laity must be chaste and the Priest must also be male.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I am sure they would, but ordaining women and the openly unchaste homosexual (among other things) will not move unity one step closer. It separates and complicates further.

In fact, in heading off in such a radical & liberal fashion, almost assures that unity and full communion will never take place.

To me, it’s asking Rome’s approval of their further disobedience to the Catholic Church and her doctrines, and kind of like saying “Stick it in your eye!” in the process.

If unity was truly important here, then the authorities in the Anglican and Lutheran churches should not further increase the abyss between themselves and the Catholic Church.

Exactly. By this very nature they represent the epitome of division by the disguise of “unity” by practicing outside the very tenants of Scriptures.

 

[Michael57]

That is not correct. If single, a priest must live a chase life that either leads to marriage or celibacy. Divorce is allowed only under extraordinary circumstances.

Did you miss the entire point? Oh, well.

You are supporting things here that simply cannot lead to the approval of, or unity with Rome - these things make unity less likely, not more likely. :dts:

Is it possible that you’ve made “Christian unity” your god, while forsaking real communion of faith? :ehh:

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Canadian Lutherans and Anglicans recently held a joint Assembly in Ottawa

"Canadian Lutheran Bishop Susan C. Johnson said that “the whole point of full communion is to assist us and strengthen us in mission and ministry so that we can reach out in love and service to the world that God so dearly loves.”

For Canadian Anglican Primate Archbishop Fred Hiltz, the joint assembly was “a meeting quite unlike any other meeting that has happened in the past. …] It’s an exciting and historic moment for our churches”

jointassembly.ca/videos/opening-worship

 

[JonNC]

I am sure they would, but ordaining women and the openly unchaste homosexual (among other things) will not move unity one step closer. It separates and complicates further.

In fact, in heading off in such a radical & liberal fashion, almost assures that unity and full communion will never take place.

If unity was truly important here, then the authorities in the Anglican and Lutheran churches should not further increase the abyss between themselves and the Catholic Church.

This is why I contend that confessional Lutherans and Anglo-Catholics are much better positioned for positive and effective dialogue with the Vatican than are the more liberal wings of the two communions.

To me, it’s asking Rome’s approval of their further disobedience to the Catholic Church and her doctrines, and kind of like saying “Stick it in your eye!” in the process.

The “further disobedience” type language, you will find, has very little traction with us. I think the expectation in ecumenical dialogue is that of a recognition of equal partners in the dialogue process. OTOH, I can understand the “finger in the eye” feeling. While on the one hand the liberal synods dialogue with Rome to encourage greater recognition of our clergy, on the other hand they continue to move their understand of clergy further and further away from orthodox understanding of who, scripturally and traditionally, can be ordained. It must be frustrating from a Catholic POV.

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

This is why I contend that confessional Lutherans and Anglo-Catholics are much better positioned for positive and effective dialogue with the Vatican than are the more liberal wings of the two communions.

That’s certainly true.

But the thing about this conversation overall (as with many conversations on web discussion forums) is that it is always hard to know whether it is about ecumenical dialogue, or whether it is about conversion (or more specifically, about the Ordinariates).

 

[JonNC]

That’s certainly true.

But the thing about this conversation overall (as with many conversations on web discussion forums) is that it is always hard to know whether it is about ecumenical dialogue, or whether it is about conversion (or more specifically, about the Ordinariates).

I can’t speak for Anglicans in this way, but my sense is that among confessional Lutherans, an ordinariate is probably not part of the discussion at this point. For example, the Anglo-Lutheran Catholic Church essentially chose to jettison Lutheran teaching where it disagreed with the CCC. Thats what it takes to enter an ordinariate, and most confessional Lutherans are not willing to abandon Lutheran doctrine (its what makes confessional Lutherans confessional, after all).
So for us, it will be about dialogue, and coming to convergence about the things that divide us, not us simply giving up what makes us Lutheran.

Jon