Provoo Communion Validates Anglican Orders

[EvangelCatholic]

This is why I contend that confessional Lutherans and Anglo-Catholics are much better positioned for positive and effective dialogue with the Vatican than are the more liberal wings of the two communions.

The “further disobedience” type language, you will find, has very little traction with us. I think the expectation in ecumenical dialogue is that of a recognition of equal partners in the dialogue process. OTOH, I can understand the “finger in the eye” feeling. While on the one hand the liberal synods dialogue with Rome to encourage greater recognition of our clergy, on the other hand they continue to move their understand of clergy further and further away from orthodox understanding of who, scripturally and traditionally, can be ordained. It must be frustrating from a Catholic POV.

Jon

There is a paradox in all of this. The willingness of Lutherans to align ourselves within episcopacy and provide uninterrupted apostolic succession to Anglicans coincides with the struggle to minister to all of God’s children and maintain a presence in the real world. I think Lutherans and Anglicans, for the most part, view their mission in broader terms than some others are willing to go. But as you point out, both Communions are committed to a dialogue with the Rome not concession.

 

[JonNC]

=EvangelCatholic;11003478]There is a paradox in all of this. The willingness of Lutherans to align ourselves within episcopacy and provide uninterrupted apostolic succession to Anglicans coincides with the struggle to minister to all of God’s children and maintain a presence in the real world.

I’m not sure i understand this. Even though the LCMS still practices presbyter ordination, we too struggle to minister to all of God’s children and maintain a presence in the real world.

I think Lutherans and Anglicans, for the most part, view their mission in broader terms than some others are willing to go. But as you point out, both Communions are committed to a dialogue with the Rome not concession.

I’m not sure i understand this, either. Broader terms meaning what?
Jon

 

[Michael57]

This is why I contend that confessional Lutherans and Anglo-Catholics are much better positioned for positive and effective dialogue with the Vatican than are the more liberal wings of the two communions.

The “further disobedience” type language, you will find, has very little traction with us. I think the expectation in ecumenical dialogue is that of a recognition of equal partners in the dialogue process. OTOH, I can understand the “finger in the eye” feeling. While on the one hand the liberal synods dialogue with Rome to encourage greater recognition of our clergy, on the other hand they continue to move their understand of clergy further and further away from orthodox understanding of who, scripturally and traditionally, can be ordained. It must be frustrating from a Catholic POV.

Jon

Perhaps a better phrase would be “further distancing by adopting novel and strange doctrines” ? Apologies for a less artful phrasing of the idea. :doh2:

It’s more puzzling than frustrating. In pleading for union, they seem to embrace ideas that will never lead to it.

 

[Michael57]

Canadian Lutherans and Anglicans recently held a joint Assembly in Ottawa

jointassembly.ca/videos/opening-worship

:ehh::dts:

 

[JonNC]

=Michael57;11003558]Perhaps a better phrase would be “further distancing by adopting novel and strange doctrines” ? Apologies for a less artful phrasing of the idea. :doh2:

Ok, this expression we understand.

It’s more puzzling than frustrating. In pleading for union, they seem to embrace ideas that will never lead to it.

As I said, I think this why the CC is beginning to look toward confessional Lutherans. I don’t see how ordaining women, and people who are living unchaste lives outside of marriage, does unity or the reputation of Lutheran and Anglican orders and episcopacy and good.

Jon

 

[josie_L]

And the irony, as Jon points out, is that Lutherans, in general, are indifferent about apostolic succession. It appears the trend among worldwide Lutherans is to fall in line with episcopacy. “Called to Common Mission” that Episcopalian and Lutheran bishops signed about 15 years ago yields to the Anglican insistence of apostolic succession. So now the ELCA and other Lutheran groups in America and Canada ordain with a bishop present who has been consecrated by a bishop in apostolic succession.

Lutherans are fine with acknowledging apostolic sucession among Anglicans but as the Archbishop of Uppsala, the primate of Sweden, stated in 1925, the Lutheran Orders are uninterrupted in apostolic succession. So if there is any question about Anglican succession, it is a mute point now that they are in communion with Lutherans.

I think you meant “moot” point.

 

[Michael57]

Ok, this expression we understand.

As I said, I think this why the CC is beginning to look toward confessional Lutherans. I don’t see how ordaining women, and people who are living unchaste lives outside of marriage, does unity or the reputation of Lutheran and Anglican orders and episcopacy and good.

Jon

Agreed.

So when do you swim the Tiber, Jon? Or are you waiting for the raft (your congregation) to all go over at the same time?

The reason I ask, is that you sound awfully “Catholic” for a “Lutheran”, and I have known of several that have gone through RCIA and joined in full communion, including a Lutheran Pastor.

No pressure, just curious.

I used to say “Catholic with a small c” when reciting the creed, then I finally dropped all my pretense and just declared “Catholic”, long before I went through RCIA and was accepted into the Church.

Now it’s just Catholic.

Part of One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, with Pope Francis as Pontiff. Thanks be to God!

I will keep you in my prayers.

GBY!

 

[JonNC]

Agreed.

So when do you swim the Tiber, Jon? Or are you waiting for the raft (your congregation) to all go over at the same time?

The reason I ask, is that you sound awfully “Catholic” for a “Lutheran”, and I have known of several that have gone through RCIA and joined in full communion, including a Lutheran Pastor.

No pressure, just curious.

I used to say “Catholic with a small c” when reciting the creed, then I finally dropped all my pretense and just declared “Catholic”, long before I went through RCIA and was accepted into the Church.

Now it’s just Catholic.

Part of One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, with Pope Francis as Pontiff. Thanks be to God!

I will keep you in my prayers.

GBY!

Thanks Michael. Very kind words, and appreciated.

You’re fairly close, actually. I’m rather a believer in corporate unity, so I’d be in communion with the Bishop of more if:

1. my communion did
2. there were to be reunion between Rome and Orthodoxy
3. my communion moved away from Lutheran orthodoxy

Jon

 

[Peter_J]

Agreed.

So when do you swim the Tiber, Jon?

Thanks Michael. Very kind words, and appreciated.

You’re fairly close, actually. I’m rather a believer in corporate unity, so I’d be in communion with the Bishop of more if:

1. my communion did
2. there were to be reunion between Rome and Orthodoxy
3. my communion moved away from Lutheran orthodoxy

Jon

Several years ago I visited a nearby Orthodox parish several times. (I don’t remember exactly, but I guess it was once or twice per month for 3 or 4 months.) Usually I would chat briefly with an older man who I believe was an usher.

Anyhow, after several such conversations he said “So, when are you going to join the church?” (He knew I was Catholic.) This was one of the factors in my discontinuing visiting that church, and yet honestly I’d have to say that there really wasn’t anything offensive about it … Orthodox make no bones about the fact that they want non-Orthodox to become Orthodox.

But I digress.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

I’m not sure i understand this. Even though the LCMS still practices presbyter ordination, we too struggle to minister to all of God’s children and maintain a presence in the real world.

I’m not sure i understand this, either. Broader terms meaning what?
Jon

I refer to the Social Statement of the Church regarding Sexuality:

Because of the love of the Triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, we are a people set free for lives of responsibility committed to seeking the good of all. This statement responds to this church’s call for a foundational framework that will help it discern what it means to follow faithfully God’s law of love in the increasingly complex sphere of human sexuality. It does not offer once-and-for-all answers to contemporary questions. Rather, it seeks to tap the deep roots of Scripture and the Lutheran theological tradition for specific Christian convictions, themes, and wisdom that will assist people of faith to discern what is responsible and faithful action in the midst of the complexity of daily life.

It proposes guideposts to direct this church’s discernment as it tries to be faithful. It provides markers by which individual and communal decisions can be tested under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It seeks to describe the social realities of this age and to address them pastorally. Insofar as it is possible, it also seeks to speak in ways that can address both religious and secular discussions of these matters.

elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements.aspx

 

[Michael57]

Thanks Michael. Very kind words, and appreciated.

You’re fairly close, actually. I’m rather a believer in corporate unity, so I’d be in communion with the Bishop of more if:

1. my communion did
2. there were to be reunion between Rome and Orthodoxy
3. my communion moved away from Lutheran orthodoxy

Jon

I will pray for all three while at Mass, and I better get me there quick (Vigil Mass). Bye for now, and God bless!

 

[Michael57]

I will pray for all three while at Mass, and I better get me there quick (Vigil Mass). Bye for now, and God bless!

Actually, just the first two, the last one I think will either happen or not, without my praying for it - I have no desire to see any move away from orthodoxy.

 

[Michael57]

I refer to the Social Statement of the Church regarding Sexuality:

elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Social-Statements.aspx

Well, I actually read the whole thing, and oddly enough, it seems to indicate that there is a wide variety of opinion about the subject within ELCA, so for you to say that this document supports your assertions is, well, inaccurate to say the least.

It even acknowleges the wide variety of opinion in a way that *doesn’t condemn anyone *for holding one of these varied beliefs within the ELCA. Probably to sustain membership, I am guessing.

Frankly, for a document authored by a group of what I assume are highly educated Lutheran theologians, I am a bit shocked that it avoids all of the clear and unambiguous scriptures regarding what is sexual sin, and aberrant sexual practices.

Scripture that clearly shows even the least educated reader that to engage in homosexual acts, male with male, or female with female, is condemned as severely as the sin of fornication or adultery.

And it’s not like the idea is only isolated in the book of Romans or by one writer of the books or epistles.

Perhaps they didn’t want to appear “judgmental”.

I’ll stick with the CCC, thanks.

 

[Peter_J]

Actually, just the first two, the last one I think will either happen or not, without my praying for it - I have no desire to see any move away from orthodoxy.

Good point. “I will pray for all three” was, in fact, a slightly odd statement.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Well, I actually read the whole thing, and oddly enough, it seems to indicate that there is a wide variety of opinion about the subject within ELCA, so for you to say that this document supports your assertions is, well, inaccurate to say the least.

Not sure what you are citing as my “inaccurate” assertion. The position of Lutheran and Anglican churches with notable exceptions * view homosexuality as “moral” behavior.

There is, of-course, individual freedom to disagree yet the Church ordains and marries gay Christians.*

 

[aidanbradypop]

Not sure what you are citing as my “inaccurate” assertion. The position of Lutheran and Anglican churches with notable exceptions * view homosexuality as “moral” behavior.

There is, of-course, individual freedom to disagree yet the Church ordains and marries gay Christians.*

How is it moral behavior when scripture speaks against it?

 

[JonNC]

Not sure what you are citing as my “inaccurate” assertion. The position of Lutheran and Anglican churches with notable exceptions * view homosexuality as “moral” behavior.*

There is, of-course, individual freedom to disagree yet the Church ordains and marries gay Christians.

If you are, indeed, a Lutheran, and you practice sola scriptura, and read scripture in the light of the Lutheran confessions, then you can support the bolded from scripture and the confessions.
In short, where does scripture say, or at least not contradict the statement, that homosexuality is a moral behavior?

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

If you are, indeed, a Lutheran, and you practice sola scriptura, and read scripture in the light of the Lutheran confessions, then you can support the bolded from scripture and the confessions.
In short, where does scripture say, or at least not contradict the statement, that homosexuality is a moral behavior?

Jon

You know that what you ask requires a monumental answer. I can only provide limited information since both women and gay ordination are not main interests. The thread on Rt Krister Stendahl should help.

 

[JonNC]

You know that what you ask requires a monumental answer. I can only provide limited information since both women and gay ordination are not main interests. The thread on Rt Krister Stendahl should help.

Ok, but I wasn’t even asking about ordination, only about the morality of homosexuality.
Actually, the morality of homosexual behavior and actions, to be more precise.
Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

You know that what you ask requires a monumental answer. I can only provide limited information since both women and gay ordination are not main interests. The thread on Rt Krister Stendahl should help.

Actually it requires a very simple answer…yes or no…when asked if Scripture states homosexual acts as moral or not.

It becomes monumental when one tries to justify such behavior a using Scripture that clearly speaks against it.

These issues, EC, will keep the ELCA and the RCC from ever forming a communion with one another unless such teachings are corrected.