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Isaiah45_9
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I hear you, Jon… I hear you…Yeah, but that’s the opinion of an ancient Hebrew culture. It isn’t really intended for our modern, enlightened culture. You see, we just know better.
Jon
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Isaiah45_9
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Do you know what demagoguery means?
We are not talking about retreats or about Mass. We are talking about a very specific subject, which when we present something against what you want it to be, you jump off into something else that appeals to sentiments…
I’m shaking the dust off my feet…
MichaelI visited the Catholic Church often before I became Catholic through RCIA, even though I referred to myself as “Catholic” and held the idea that the teachings and doctrine of the Church were True.
Not once did I take communion, even when no one was there that knew me. I understood the Catholic requirements as shown in the CCC, and in the missalettes (toward the front there was instruction about it for non-Catholic visitors). Did I understand why? No, not like I do now, but still I chose not to give offense. “Love thy neighbor.”
Any Catholic priest, monsignor, or “padre” (?), should know about these prohibitions and should not usurp the Bishop’s authority or the teaching of the Catholic Church which is clearly written and explained for those with an interest in the subject. Unless they believe a doctrine that is not in accordance with their Church, which seems to fit the idea of real heresy in this case, for that is a heretical position in opposition to the Church, from my understanding of the CCC, and Canon law. Such is the case with some.
It is possible that those Catholics observing this happening with knowledge of the circumstances could complain to Church Authority, which might lead to disciplinary action against the erring clergy in question. What you describe is scandalous of those that offer it, for they are not consistent with the CCC.
I have, since entering into full communion with the Church, witnessed abuses of the Eucharist, and attempted abuses of the Eucharist. The former usually out of ignorance and not malice, the latter usually prevented by extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, alert ushers, and clergy that carefully guard the Sacred Host from abuse and misuse.
You, if memory serves from your other posts in CAF, claim to have gone through a Lutheran Seminary, and have family members that are Catholic that you visit, and whom with you attend Catholic Mass. Sounds great.
If you did not know before about the Catholic prohibitions on receiving the Eucharist, then you should now, and for you to take communion with this knowledge, we believe is to eat and drink damnation upon yourself. We do not wish that.
That is why so many here have warned you about it, and have questioned your motives about saying the things you say. Including your fellow Lutherans.
I don’t think it’s a novel or unique idea of yours, for you’ve even posted that you have seemingly little regard for this teaching and you feel it is supported by those who think as you, no one can change that, it’s a matter of conscience.
But I do think that when you take communion in a Church that YOU DON"T AGREE WITH, then you have strange ideas about what a faith life is when compared to my understanding and the teachings of my faith in the Catholic Church. Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself.
Don’t scandalize others at Mass by partaking in something that causes scandal, like taking the Eucharist when you clearly shouldn’t. Love you neighbor.
I have no doubt that there are those that are scandalized by your taking Catholic communion, when you are clearly not agreeing with the Catholic Church, I believe you are creating harm to them that you do not understand.
Frankly, I am somewhat scandalized by what you seem to cheerfully post here about non-Catholics taking the Eucharist when not in communion of faith, ordination of homosexuals who are not living in a chaste and moral lifestyle, and the ordination and elevation of women in as “priests” and “bishops”. To any Catholic, well formed in their faith, these are all anathema, illicit, and strictly forbidden. Still, I forgive you and do not wish harm to come to you by your action of taking the Eucharist in error at Catholic Mass.
I could understand if you were simply untutored, but you attended seminary, right? I find it a little hard to believe that you are doing these things with anything but a motive to impose what you think is “right” upon a Church that clearly says the things you advocate for are strange teachings that do not comply with either Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition. You don’t have the authority to decide that for us, and neither does any laity or priest that invites or allows illicit reception of the Host during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. It’s a Sacrament of the Church, one of seven that we hold dear. Or do you feel entitled to take it? Justified perhaps?
The Magisterium does not support these novel ideas, and the Scriptures reject them as well, unless, of course they have been stretched and warped into some new form of teaching that was never intended, much like the strange teachings of the Gnostics from the very beginning. People haven’t changed much in the past 6,000 years or so.
You should refrain from taking the Eucharist in Catholic Mass until you have completed RCIA and have been received into full communion with the Catholic Church.
That is the norm for those outside the faith to enter into communion of the faith of the Catholic Church.
Simply a well prepared, thought out, in depth post. Well done, my friend.
I have often used the example of being a guest in someone house; you abide by their requests. You said it in three words: love thy neighbor.
Jon
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pablope
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Again…if you actually informed them that you are not catholic…and told them you hold beliefs contrary to what the CC teaches…would they still ask you to receive the Eucharist?
You asked…everyone said no…and you seem to be fishing for a “yes”…which is not forthcoming.
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EvangelCatholic
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Yes, some were ecumenical celebrations in both Lutheran [Benedictine] & Catholic [Franciscan] communities. We rejoice in oneness with Christ.
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pablope
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What is ecumenical celebration?
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EvangelCatholic
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You know, in actuality these were typical daily Mass celebration. What made them particularly inspiring were the participants around the Altar. I once dated a Baptist girl who I met at Mass in the Lutheran monastery.
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Peter_J
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I hate to say, but you’re in for a rude awakening. Catholics (as per official policy I mean, not just some particular priest bending the rules as alluded to in earlier posts) admits members of the Polish National Catholic Church, Assyrian Church of the East, and Orthodox Church to communion.Why should they invite you if you are not Catholic?
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Isaiah45_9
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I’m awake, not rudely but awake nonetheless - gotta love double shifts…
.However, we are talking about invitation not admission.
Plus, if I’m not mistaken, all the Churches you mentioned are recognized to have Apostolic Succession.
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Michael57
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Thank you, Jon. Occasionally I can make a point when I try real hard.Michael
Simply a well prepared, thought out, in depth post. Well done, my friend.
I have often used the example of being a guest in someone house; you abide by their requests. You said it in three words: love thy neighbor.
Jon
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Michael57
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You left out a bunch of others, Chaldean, Eastern Catholic, Melkite…
Edit: Okay here’s the list according to Wiki (with apologies, I seldom us Wiki as a ref):
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"The autonomous Catholic Churches in full communion with the Holy See are:
Of Alexandrian liturgical tradition: Coptic Catholic Church
Ethiopic Catholic Church
Of Antiochian liturgical tradition: Maronite Church
Syrian Catholic Church
Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
Of Armenian liturgical tradition: Armenian Catholic Church
Of Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition: Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church
Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
Byzantine Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro
Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
Melkite Greek Catholic Church
Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic
Russian Byzantine Catholic Church
Ruthenian Catholic Church
Slovak Greek Catholic Church
Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
Of Chaldean or East Syrian tradition: Chaldean Catholic Church
Syro-Malabar Church
Of Western liturgical tradition: Latin Church[3]
The Catholic Church sees itself as in partial, not full, communion with other Christian groups. “With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist” Catechism of the Catholic Church (838).
In fact, full communion is seen as an essential condition for sharing together in the Eucharist, apart from exceptional circumstances, in line with the second-century practice witnessed to by Saint Justin Martyr, who, in his First Apology [3], wrote: “No one is allowed to partake (of the Eucharist) but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined.”
Accordingly, “Catholic priests are forbidden to concelebrate the Eucharist with priests or ministers of Churches or ecclesial communities which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church.”[4]"**
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EvangelCatholic
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Getting back to apostolic succession, I came across photos of the Archbishop of Kenya [Lutheran] preaching in the chapel of St Timothy and St Titus at Concordia seminary [LCMS]. Is the LCMS also returning to episcopacy?
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Michael57
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If you read my post on that issue again, I think you’ll see what I meant.
Honest people with good intentions can and do make mistakes. But that doesn’t excuse the error. These trained clergy and religious should know better. So should you, shouldn’t you?
Have you even read the CCC about the Eucharist?
Others have posted from it for you. Many have urged you to do so, but it seems you don’t respond to anything that disagrees with your world view. Truly puzzling. You don’t even seem to acknowledge the posts that oppose your perspective except to parse words on tangential things, and not the point. Strange thing that, eh? :ehh:
Just so you know: Neither the priests, monsignors, deacons, or laity in the Catholic Church have the AUTHORITY to allow you, a Non-Catholic, to take communion at a Catholic Mass.
And you don’t have the authority to take communion for yourself in a Catholic Mass, because you “heard that someone that said (or wrote an article) or something about something to someone once upon a time”. :dts:
Your taking communion at any Catholic Mass, without the approval of the Bishop or higher authority (and after reading this “new” information) would make you as mistaken and erroneous as those that offer it *without the authority *to offer it to you.
You doing so creates scandal, even to those who, at the time, are too ignorant to understand that they are involved in something scandalous.:doh2:
And just so you know, not all Franciscans hold the erroneous views of those you’ve been exposed to as you’ve related in your posts. My current priest is a Franciscan, and I guarantee you that he would never allow you communion in any Mass he presided over if he knew you were Lutheran.
Why wouldn’t he? Because he wouldn’t want you to eat or drink damnation upon yourself. He would be worried about the condition of your soul and the clear scripture on the consequences of this particular error (provided by another posting here). Just as I am worried that you are doing something harmful to yourself.
And I am shocked, but unsurprised, that some clergy and religious that you’ve met are in error over this issue. These are the times in which we live.
I pray for those in error (and those that they lead into error) and would not want to be in their shoes come Judgment Day for allowing the error to continue. It is an abuse of the Eucharist, and if one is Catholic, one understands that this is the Lord’s Body we are referring to here.
I pray that you will not partake of this error and abuse of the Eucharist in the future, should this arise again, and that you will gently remind those offering the Host to you in error, that they have not the authority to do so. And neither do your family members who apparently are not well formed in their faith concerning this basic tenet. For them, I also pray.
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Peter_J
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aidanbradypop
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His play dates with ConstantineTG were not so nice lolYou must get along well with the Eastern Orthodox.
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Peter_J
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P.S. I just realized that that quip might seem odd, in that the last post I made before it wasYou must get along well with the Eastern Orthodox.
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Peter_J
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No, you’re not mistaken.I’m awake, not rudely but awake nonetheless - gotta love double shifts…
However, we are talking about invitation not admission.
Plus, if I’m not mistaken, all the Churches you mentioned are recognized to have Apostolic Succession.
Maybe I should have said “impolite awakening” rather than “rude awakening”.
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Peter_J
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(emphasis added)
Please explain (as soon as possible if you don’t mind) how I left them out, given that I said "Catholics admit … ". The last time I checked, the term Catholics includes Chaldean, Melkite, Maronite, Latin, etc. CatholicsYou left out a bunch of others, Chaldean, Eastern Catholic, Melkite…
Perhaps you could explain who you include under the term “Catholic”, if you exclude Melkites and Chaldeans?
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Isaiah45_9
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Maybe you should have addressed the issue: invitation. Instead of going off the tangent.
Or maybe you should keep replying to yourself…
Or maybe you have a cat with a bat in a hat?
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