Of course he couldn’t be THEN, because he’s dead! At that point the whole thing is moot, what matters is what he believed prior to that point. If he didn’t believe in God, there is no way he could be saved regardless of any good work he did.His PERFECT ACT OF CHARITY comes with PERFECT FAITH, and PERFECT HOPE, etc. I can assume he is no longer an athetist after he lays down his life for his friend.
peace
No one is arguing that good deeds are bad, obviously they are good. However without the belief in God, no one good deed is going to save you, doesn’t matter what it is. God isn’t going to force you to be with Him if you never believed in Him to begin with.Sorry, Ginger, your disbelief rules you out as someone to tell me what is Catholic faith and what is not. You practice what we consider as heretical.
According to your Protestant faith, any good deed performed before justification, even under the influence by actual grace, is sinful.
At what point did he perform this perfect act of love? When he did perform this perfect deed of charity, the other virtues, and in their perfect state accompanied them.Of course he couldn’t be THEN, because he’s dead! At that point the whole thing is moot, what matters is what he believed prior to that point. If he didn’t believe in God, there is no way he could be saved regardless of any good work he did.
It is has nothing to do with that, it’s not working against God’s will at all. It’s the simple fact that you reap what you sow in life. This person didn’t believe, so he sows an eternal punishment in Hell. One good deed does not change any of that.At what point did he perform this perfect act of love. When he did, the other virtues, and in their perfect state accompanied them.
You can’t tell me that there is a clock there, and the ‘grim reaper’, all working against God’s will for this Good Samaritan?
No.
peace
Yes, you reap what you sow in life.It is has nothing to do with that, it’s not working against God’s will at all. It’s the simple fact that you reap what you sow in life. This person didn’t believe, so he sows an eternal punishment in Hell. One good deed does not change any of that.
No, I don’t think you understand.I understand what you are getting at… but again at the same time he did not belief in God in his life, refusing his free gift of salvation.
Perfect charity imitates LOVE, the Third person of the Blessed Trinity. He is not rejecting God, nor is he rejected by God. On the contrary he is completely united to God, who saved him through the merits of Jesus Christ.No one is arguing that good deeds are bad, obviously they are good. However without the belief in God, no one good deed is going to save you, doesn’t matter what it is. God isn’t going to force you to be with Him if you never believed in Him to begin with.
So then can someone who never believes, be saved then because of helping and giving to the poor in his area on a consistent basis?No, I don’t think you understand.
With perfect charity comes perfect faith, perfect hope, etc.
Perfect charity cannot exist in a vacuum. It carries with it perfection in all virtures, including faith.
Almsgiving does in no way compare to our expample of perfect charity.So then can someone who never believes, be saved then because of helping and giving to the poor in his area on a consistent basis?
Say he still dies having never believed, despite how much he gives and helps out. Is he saved then in your eyes or isn’t he?Almsgiving does in no way compare to our expample of perfect charity.
But these are charitable deeds, which are motions of actual grace to this individual. He is cooperating with these movements of grace.
God will move him, and offer him ‘sufficient grace’ to be saved. If he continues to cooperate with these graces, well, the mercy and generosity of God is immeasurable.
peace
You are saying he never believed. Did he reject God? His acts of charity may not have been enough.Say he still dies having never believed, despite how much he gives and helps out. Is he saved then in your eyes or isn’t he?
None of us is disagreeing that is possible for this man to get to heaven. We are saying that this one good deed in itself is not the deciding factor - Christ Jesus is.Perfect charity imitates LOVE, the Third person of the Blessed Trinity. He is not rejecting God, nor is he rejected by God. On the contrary he is completely united to God, who saved him through the merits of Jesus Christ.
Ah, spoken like a true Protestant. Of course you meant to say, ‘faith only’.I think he would not be, in fact I think no matter what act of charity you do, you can only be saved through Christ. In fact the Bible backs up that statement thusly:
Ephesians 2: 8-9 (Amp.)
8For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;
9Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
John 14:6 (Amp.)
6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.
Quite simply, without faith, no good works can save you.
You deny the words of Jesus Christ himself, about PERFECT CHARITY.None of us is disagreeing that is possible for this man to get to heaven. We are saying that this one good deed in itself is not the deciding factor - Christ Jesus is.
You are assuming to know this man’s heart, by stating this scenario as absolute and constant - that everyone who dies helping someone else is saved.
You cannot proclaim as fact that you know his eternal fate because of his actions. Only God knows this man’s heart.
The narrow gate is Jesus.
I am not trying to save you - that is in the hands of Jesus as it is with all of us.And Ginger ‘felt’ a need to save me by preaching to me, and what she is preaching is that faith only saves. She is preaching the primary heresy of Protestantism.
How can you correct someone with heretical doctrine.I am not trying to save you - that is in the hands of Jesus as it is with all of us.
I am correcting you in love.
I will never deny Jesus. I am depending on God for that.You deny the words of Jesus Christ himself, about PERFECT CHARITY.
An atheist is not a Christian.I do not know the fate of you or your neighbor in your pew, but we are setting up the case of the hypothetical Christian who perishes while saving the life of another.
We do not “know”.We know his PERFECT LOVE, saves him.
What a stupid example, of a fake hero. We are talking textbook Catholicism and you bring up straw man examples.I will never deny Jesus. I am depending on God for that.
An atheist is not a Christian.
We do not “know”.
*We had an incident near where I live when a man ran into a burning building to save someone. Turned out he set the fire so that he could play the hero and win back his girlfriend.
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We do not and cannot know what is in another’s heart. Only God knows that. We can hope and pray that the atheist turned to God at some point before dying. But we will not know until we meet in heaven.
In the case of a Christian, we still do not “know”, but we trust his soul to God.