Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[BarryI]

This sums it up pretty well for me. My biggest sins of my life have always been with lust. And I repent of these sins, but sexual sin continues to hold attraction for me. I don’t do them because I know it is wrong, but I still WANT to.

I feel I need Purgatory to cleanse me from the ATTACHMENT to sin.

Is there such a place called purgatory to “purge one of his sins”? If the wages we pay for sin is death,then did you not pay the ultimate price for sinning?If so, then why did Jesus not bring this to light when he walked on earth?Everything is either “black or white”, so to speak. There is good and evil, there is Heaven and hell, there is the fleshly beings and spirit beings,there is night and day,etc.There is no in between. You are either good, or evil, thats it . No more, no less.You can’t be good only on your terms and compromise certain situations as you see fit. That is why Jesus never mentioned anything about a place called purgatory.If so, then why in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus he says a great chasm seperated them, and the rich man was in a place of torment? It was never said that he was a terrible sinner and needed purging,it was just said that he was in a place of torment, and neither one could cross to the other side.Also he asked if someone could be sent back to his brothers to warn them about this terrible place.So if he could never cross to the other side ,and there was nothing between the two sides,then that is it in “black and white”. Jesus never said , "well its ok if you’re bad 50% of the time and good 50% of the time,NO you have to be good ALL the time and refrain and remove yourself from any and ALL situations that lead to sin. He knows we will mess up as we are imperfect human beings under the power and influence of Satan and his followers,and that is why Jesus was sent to the earth, to cause division among the people, NOT to bring peace.There will be those who follow him, and those who honor Satan.Remember as it was written in John 3:16 "For God so loved the world,that He gave His only Son, so that whoever believes in Him MIGHT NOT PERISH, but MIGHT have eternal life. Notice that He didn’t say WILL, but MIGHT, indicating that MANY will be invited, but only a few will be chosen, meaning those who accept the invitation. He calls,we have to answer.

 

[BarryI]

I have a question for you. Can you show me in the bible where it says you are now, on this earth, free from all sin and from all inclination to sin? Because that is what you are claiming.

Oh no sir.That is not what I am saying, nor ever even insinuated that.Can I ask you a question? God created this world and sent his Son Jesus to save man and offer eternal life. Who then is the ruler of the world?

 

[snarflemike]

Oh no sir.That is not what I am saying, nor ever even insinuated that.

Yes, that is exactly what you are claiming. If one must be perfect and without sin or inclination to sin to enter heaven, and if no transformation takes place upon death, then you are claiming that you are now perfect and without sin or inclination to sin. So I’m asking where in the bible you find this teaching.

 

[brb3]

I’ve encounter both sayings, including from saints.

Example: “Purgatory is not a place of misery and unwanted torment; even though it is a place of suffering. Purgatory is a place of love, hope and peace. It was created by love—the love which God has for His beloved children. Purgatory was a necessity born out of love because only the purest of souls can enter Heaven; and if Purgatory did not exist, most souls would never be allowed in God’s Heaven of pure love.”

What’s the official description?

Benedict has recently said NOT. He describes it as a ‘purifying fire’ of Christ on us, @ our Particular Judgments … a Theosis Event of sorts !!

 

[BarryI]

Yes, that is exactly what you are claiming. If one must be perfect and without sin or inclination to sin to enter heaven, and if no transformation takes place upon death, then you are claiming that you are now perfect and without sin or inclination to sin. So I’m asking where in the bible you find this teaching.

No sir, that is not what I am claiming. You see, I have a different understanding of the truth that is written in the Bible, just as Jesus told the Jews in John 8:31-32 “If you remain in My word,you will know the truth,and the truth will set you free”. Which is why He was telling them they will be free if the Son frees you from sin. That my friend is done here on earth while we are living in this world, taking in the knowledge of the word and living in Christ on a daily basis. You see,once you make the committment to become a true believer and follower, you will set yourself free of all the anxieties and corruption of the world . Plain and simple.

Also, in Matthew 25:31-46, Jesus clearly talks about the resurrection and Judgement Day.Note He says the sheep will inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world.This will be on a new earth as He says so in Revelation “See, I make all things new” Where there will be a new heaven and a new earth.If there is a new earth, why would we be resurrected in our bodies if we were a spirit in Heaven?We were created as humans to serve God and worship Him all our lives.If He wanted us to be in Heaven with Him, He would have just made us angels like all the millions of angels who reside in Heaven. The answer is , when you die, you are asleeep, just as he said his friend Lazarus has fallen asleep,for 4 days. Lazarus didnt come back and ask Jesus why did he take him out of heaven, NO , because he was in the ground. That is where we all will be until the last day, with the exception of those who are still living when Armageddon comes.

 

[steve_b]

Well then can you explain then why, if one is already in Heaven, he is still going to be resurrected and judged on the last day. Judgment Day. For even in the Nicene Creed, all Catholics profess"We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.We Look for the Resurrection of the DEAD and the life of the world to come Amen

Are you by chance 7th day Adventist?

When we die, we aren’t in the ground waiting for judgement Day some time in the future… The soul is immortal. That means it has a beginning but no end. It doesn’t sleep, it doesn’t die. At death the soul is judged. No waiting till the end of the world. The body is mortal. It dies. It’s dead as a doornail. Some day in the future, the body will rise. That’s when a new resurrected body is reunited with the soul. Between death of the body and final judgement day, the soul is either in heaven, purgatory or hell. If the final judgement isn’t for a billion years from now, the soul is fully functional with memory intellect and will during that time.

Where do we see the seperation of body and soul after death?

When Jesus dies, His body and soul seperated. His body went to the grave, but His spirit went to preach to the souls in prison, those who were disobedient since the time of Noah. [1 Pet 3:18-20] Those souls aren’t the condemned. The condemned souls are in hell. Jesus preached to those souls who He was going to save. No need to preach if one can’t know or understand what is being preached…right? On the 3rd day, Jesus rose from the dead. His soul reunited with His resurrected body.

After our death, providing we are not in mortal sin, we will go through a purification 1 Cor 3:12-15. before heaven. Depending on one’s life, It maybe quick or it may not. This describes only souls that are saved. Those who die in mortal sin are the damned. They go straight to hell for all eternity.

 

[Daniel_Lysinger]

Though it is true that Lazarus didn’t ask why Jesus had taken him out of heaven, it is possible that Lazarus didn’t stay on the earth. Catholics believe in a certain state, called “Limbo” for those who did good in earthly life, but since Christ had not died on the cross and redeemed Adam’s original sin, they could not enter heaven. In God’s mercy, he created a place (called Limbo) for those who died but Adam’s sin prevented their entry into heaven. Couldn’t that also be an explanation?

 

[snarflemike]

No sir, that is not what I am claiming. You see, I have a different understanding of the truth that is written in the Bible, just as Jesus told the Jews in John 8:31-32 “If you remain in My word,you will know the truth,and the truth will set you free”. Which is why He was telling them they will be free if the Son frees you from sin. That my friend is done here on earth while we are living in this world, taking in the knowledge of the word and living in Christ on a daily basis. You see,once you make the committment to become a true believer and follower, you will set yourself free of all the anxieties and corruption of the world . Plain and simple.

I would love a plain and simple answer to this question, which I ask again: Are you now free from all sin and all inclination to sin?

No long explanations, no scripture, just YES or NO, please. It really is a very simple question.

 

[BarryI]

Though it is true that Lazarus didn’t ask why Jesus had taken him out of heaven, it is possible that Lazarus didn’t stay on the earth. Catholics believe in a certain state, called “Limbo” for those who did good in earthly life, but since Christ had not died on the cross and redeemed Adam’s original sin, they could not enter heaven. In God’s mercy, he created a place (called Limbo) for those who died but Adam’s sin prevented their entry into heaven. Couldn’t that also be an explanation?

I don’t really know. Could you please refer me to the passage that spells out Limbo in the Bible. Thanks I really appreciate it

 

[BarryI]

I would love a plain and simple answer to this question, which I ask again: Are you now free from all sin and all inclination to sin?

No long explanations, no scripture, just YES or NO, please. It really is a very simple question.

No I am a sinner inclined to the exposure of sin everyday like the rest of humanity. I just want the passage that spells out purgatory in the Bible. That’s it. Nothing more. Is there anyone who can give that to me so I too can read and believe. That’s all I ever asked for

 

[snarflemike]

No I am a sinner inclined to the exposure of sin everyday like the rest of humanity.

Will you be a sinner when you enter heaven?

 

[Evan]

No I am a sinner inclined to the exposure of sin everyday like the rest of humanity. I just want the passage that spells out purgatory in the Bible. That’s it. Nothing more. Is there anyone who can give that to me so I too can read and believe. That’s all I ever asked for

Why do you want it again. You’ve received it quite a few times on this thread.

You are a sinner, hence imperfect.
Nothing imperfect enters heaven.
You plan to enter heaven by Christ’s saving acts.
So you need to be made perfect between now and heaven.
We call this process of perfection ‘purgatory’
It is not a place, but an action. Being physical beings people think they are always in a place. But spirits (that is all you have between death and resurrection) are not physical so don’t have place. They are ‘in’ purgatory when they go through the perfection needed to enter heaven. It takes no time since that is a physical reality, not a spiritual one.

I don’t think it would be worth my time to give you the bible verses again. Just review this thead, they are all there. Or read your bible.

 

[snarflemike]

I don’t think it would be worth my time to give you the bible verses again. Just review this thead, they are all there. Or read your bible.

I think it might be more useful to ask him (her?) for the bible verses that state we can enter heaven while we are still sinners. Because that would seem to be his claim.

 

[BarryI]

Why do you want it again. You’ve received it quite a few times on this thread.

You are a sinner, hence imperfect.
Nothing imperfect enters heaven.
You plan to enter heaven by Christ’s saving acts.
So you need to be made perfect between now and heaven.
We call this process of perfection ‘purgatory’
It is not a place, but an action. Being physical beings people think they are always in a place. But spirits (that is all you have between death and resurrection) are not physical so don’t have place. They are ‘in’ purgatory when they go through the perfection needed to enter heaven. It takes no time since that is a physical reality, not a spiritual one.

I don’t think it would be worth my time to give you the bible verses again. Just review this thead, they are all there. Or read your bible.

No sir, I’m sorry you never have me a Bible Verse that actuall spells out the word purgatory. I do not think that Jesus would have came to the earth and miss telling humanity about such an important place for mankind to think about and reflect on.No one has been able to give me that/those verses that spell out purgatory that Jesus would have surely spelled out

 

[Evan]

No sir, I’m sorry you never have me a Bible Verse that actuall spells out the word purgatory. I do not think that Jesus would have came to the earth and miss telling humanity about such an important place for mankind to think about and reflect on.No one has been able to give me that/those verses that spell out purgatory that Jesus would have surely spelled out

Your actually looking for the word purgatory? Jesus never mentioned heaven either (from old english heofon, “home of God”). He generally did not speak in Latin, English, or Chinese.

Purgatory is from Old French purgatore and directly from Medieval Latin purgatorium = “means of cleansing, purging, cleansing” directly from Latin purgare “cleanse, make clean; purify,” from Old Latin purigare, from purus “pure” + root of agere “to drive, make”

So look for Jesus or Paul speaking of being clean, or pure, or perfect “be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect”. Of course perfect is from Middle English parfit

 

[BarryI]

I think it might be more useful to ask him (her?) for the bible verses that state we can enter heaven while we are still sinners. Because that would seem to be his claim.

No sir, I do quote only from the Bible, and look for what Jesus Himself said,such as in John 5:28-29 "do not be amazed because the hour is coming in which ALL those that are in the Graves shall hear His voice and come out. Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those whose works were evil to the resurrection of condemnation . So once again is Jesus lying to us. Because it is plain and simple here that we are in the graves until the final day. Not heaven or hell or some place called purgatory. He states it simply how we are in the graves and not conscious of anything at all, until Judgement day when he calls everyone out

 

[JonathonofOhio]

And I repeat. Once you have received baptism, you cannot receive it a 2nd time. There is One Baptism and the effects you list above are at a person’s baptism. My quote identified the baptism of blood is a baptism for those who had not been sacramentally baptized.

So instead of just conceding that you are wrong about what we were talking about, you just spew forth a straw man argument. We were discussing if a martyr goes through purgatory, and you clearly stated that the Church teaches that they do. I provided more than sufficient evidence that proves the church teaches the opposite: that a martyr does not go through purgatory upon death.

In none of my posts did I argue against One Baptism.

Additional confirmation that the Church teaches martyrs do not go through purgatory: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=727515&highlight=purgatory

I rest my case.

 

[Evan]

So instead of just conceding that you are wrong about what we were talking about, you just spew forth a straw man argument. We were discussing if a martyr goes through purgatory, and you clearly stated that the Church teaches that they do. I provided more than sufficient evidence that proves the church teaches the opposite: that a martyr does not go through purgatory upon death.

In none of my posts did I argue against One Baptism.

Then I guess we differ in our terminology. You continue to refer to baptism of blood, and I keep referring to only one baptism (either water, blood or desire).

A martyr does not receive a ‘baptism of blood’ if we speak of the entry sacrament of the body of Christ unless he has never received a baptism of water beforehand.

A martyr may have no purgatorial experience if his sufferings in this life make up for all temporal effects of sin. I have no way of judging that. That would depend on the attitude of the martyr during the suffering and his prior attachment to sin.

You say we don’t pray for martyrs. But if they are Saints, we don’t pray for any Saints: Martyrs, Virgins, Apostles, Priests, Confessors, Holy men or women. Once canonized we know they have been purged of all attachment to sin.

As to the arguments you raised. I would need to find time to review the elements of this thread. Time is short, but I vaguely recall that you did display some documentation that showed some in authority in the Church believe what you have stated. You definitely have a good argument on your side, but I am unconvinced. To me, it just seems theologically doubtful.

 

[snarflemike]

No sir, I do quote only from the Bible, and look for what Jesus Himself said,such as in John 5:28-29 "do not be amazed because the hour is coming in which ALL those that are in the Graves shall hear His voice and come out. Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those whose works were evil to the resurrection of condemnation . So once again is Jesus lying to us. Because it is plain and simple here that we are in the graves until the final day. Not heaven or hell or some place called purgatory. He states it simply how we are in the graves and not conscious of anything at all, until Judgement day when he calls everyone out

What does this have to do with my question? Can you quote scripture that says sinners can enter heaven?

You’ve already told us that you are a sinner. If you believe that sinners cannot enter heaven, how will you ever enter heaven?

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Then I guess we differ in our terminology. You continue to refer to baptism of blood, and I keep referring to only one baptism (either water, blood or desire).

A martyr does not receive a ‘baptism of blood’ if we speak of the entry sacrament of the body of Christ unless he has never received a baptism of water beforehand.

I continue to refer to it in the manner that the church does. And I believe what the church teaches: that it is all part of the same One Baptism. I never thought for a second that someone got a 2nd Baptism and never made such a claim. If the Church calls it Baptism of Blood, then that is what it is called. Referring to it as such does not mean you believe in a 2nd Baptism.

A martyr may have no purgatorial experience if his sufferings in this life make up for all temporal effects of sin. I have no way of judging that. That would depend on the attitude of the martyr during the suffering and his prior attachment to sin.

The Church teaches that a martyr goes directly to heaven. That is all there is to it. There is no room to speculate about if a person suffered enough. If they died for Christ, it is enough.

You say we don’t pray for martyrs.

The CHURCH says we don’t…

As to the arguments you raised. I would need to find time to review the elements of this thread. Time is short, but I vaguely recall that you did display some documentation that showed some in authority in the Church believe what you have stated.

Well, I didn’t raise the argument. I simply corrected someone else that mentioned that a martyr goes to purgatory, and you responded with a quote from the CCC telling me I was wrong. So if you aren’t going to bother reading my proofs, then you shouldn’t bother responding until you have viewed them and can make a valid argument against.

You definitely have a good argument on your side, but I am unconvinced. To me, it just seems theologically doubtful.

You will never be convinced of anything if can’t allow yourself to think you might be wrong about something for a moment and then go look something up and see.

To be honest with you, you got me looking to see if I was wrong in my thinking, and that looking is what got me convinced, and that is how I found all that info. So I do thank you for that .