Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[BarryI]

Quick question about purgatory… (I’m not here to debate, just ignorant on the matter)

If we can be purged of our sins then what if Christ never existed? Couldn’t God just put us in purgatory for our sins instead of Jesus dying for us?

You my friend are absolutely right which is why Jesus never talked about it.

 

[CaptFun]

Quick question about purgatory… (I’m not here to debate, just ignorant on the matter) You just won the “most humble comment of the day” award and clinched a playoff spot for " … of the year!" :yup:

If we can be purged of our sins (And we can - thank God - even many who don’t (yet) “believe in Purgatory” know as “forgiveness” of sins" and “repenting of sins” and “being redeemed” from a sinful state into one purged of impurities by God’s grace, the Sacrifice of Jesus, etc.).

then what if Christ never existed? Add to your humility award,** “Best Horror Story of the Day”.** Although I don’t really know in what sense you mean this phrase.

“Christ as incarnated, living the life of Jesus Our Redeemer, crucified, died, burined, risen and ascended”? Or more?! That is:

apart from the 33+ years He became man …

“Christ” existed always as the “Word of God” who was “with God and was God” (and is and will always BE God)!

^ HIM never existing is an alternate universe that never existed -since “through Him all things were made.” < *Though it is quite an entertaining exercise to ponder for a moment - it is not very fruitful theology (apart from maybe the “black grace” (non-saving grace) nonbelievers have that calls them back to the truth (and “saving grace”).
*
Is what you meant (?): "Couldn’t have God achieved Our Salvation another way?" Which of course He could have (as far as being capable of it) – but since He DID not do that and IS perfect – one might argue (for intellectual enlightenment in the spirit of a query rather than a proposed dogma) that "He could NOT have done that since He is inclined towards doing things in a most perfect way-- rather than in an alternately conceived and “not as good as what He actually DID” way.

Couldn’t God just put us in purgatory for our sins instead of Jesus dying for us?

Let’s try out the answers: Yes and No.

***Yes ?- ***He could have, He can do anything. AND He could also do BOTH (versus the “instead of” with Purgatory being quite the lesser thing and as it stands (as good as the fruits of IT are) IT is not equal to the Son of God’s Redemption of us. Jesus Himself prayed for the cup to pass away from Him (details of all He might have meant by that are not known to us however) – but yet bowed to the Father’s will on that “dying for us” part.

***No? - ***He could not have once He’d promised mankind a Redeemer since He does not lie. *(Add your own similar NO answers per this template or beyond it if you like). * For example: NO - He knew from all time what He would do in this regard and any other “Not Chosen by God” alternatives were certainly not beyond His fathoming of them, nor regretted by Him now in a “Wow! I could have had a V-8!” moment of some kind.

And let’s remember that Purgatory is for the saved, but not quite purified (as nothing unclean can enter heaven). And not all of the saved must go there even though Jesus said " … all will be salted by fire"; and there is a place or time or state wherein some are confined “until the last penny is paid” and Paul speaks of the time, or place, or state in which our earthly works will be tested unto our loss or reward, adding the some are (themselves) saved “yet only as through fire”.

The Church must teach of such things and does.

***My favorite insight into the Purgatory mystery takes place with the prophet Isaiah (6:7), ***when he finds himself in heaven … but good man as he basically is – he does not enjoy the glory but is horrified by his own soul’s state “I am an unclean man with unclean lips …”

Then an angel takes tongs and brings a burning coal from the altar, touches it to his lips and declares “now your sin is purged …” ***(purged is the root word for purgatory ***- the time, place or state). There it seemed to be a state and a time. Once purged Isaiah felt unselfconscious enough to answer “Here I am … send me!” to the Lord’s query “Whom shall we send?”

I also am struck by the fact that though the good thief is promised “today you shall be with me in paradise …” which might seem to deduce to there not being such a place – the thief does not die immediately nor stop suffering upon hearing the promise. So perhaps he suffered post-promise as what remained of his potential purgatory?

There is much about THIS matter that we are all ignorant about. For now there is Purgatory. One day there will not be. It is not in any case a destination, but “waiting room or operating room” of sorts, for our benefit not our undoing.

This reminds me to pray for the poor souls in purgatory which is a spiritual work of mercy.

If in doubt and a loved one who is gone comes to mind, say prayers for them. God’s word does not return to Him void, the benefit of the prayer may return to you or be placed where it will do the most good (i.e. as we give the prayer to God, we can release it to His charge. Our intentions in prayer can be Holy, but sometimes God does something better and finer than we even intended (as part of a seeming “no” to some of our prayers).

It would be sad if a soul needs our help (as part of the Body of Christ in prayer) and we withhold that help while being enamored or confused by a dubious doctrine more.

That’s why the Church prays " … may faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace, AMEN!"

 

[steve_b]

Ok perhaps I understand it a little better than most of the answers I have received. In John 14 thru 18 ,Jesus was speaking to the Apostles about the Holy Spirit guiding them and reminding them of the things Jesus taught them. He didnt teach anything about a purging of sins.

Incorrect.

Are you perhaps assuming everything Jesus said & did was written down?, It wasn’t. That’s why Jesus promised the HS to be with the apostles. For very important reasons as you can see John 21:25 Therefore, since He knew how easy people can forget, Jesus sends the HS to remind them. When Paul teaches what he did in 1 Cor 3:11-15, that wasn’t from him but from what Jesus taught, and the HS is reminding Paul of that. John 14:25-26 , John 16:12-15
B:

To do so would have been calling His Father a liar because God had said the “wages of sin is death”. Why then would someone who was forgiven for all of their sins thru death have to purge themselves of sin? Also Jesus died on the cross to pay for all of our sins. To think you have to go somewhere to be purged of your sins clearly goes against all of Jesus’ purpose. At death all of your sins are forgiven . In your passage from Paul, he was clearly pointing out to them how to build upon the foundation that was laid out before them , that they had to humble themselves and seek the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to build a strong following that would not falter. And if any did he that taught would be saved as he was out proclaiming the good news. Paul knew not eveyone would stay the course . There is clearly nothing in these passages that refers to a purging of ones sins. Sorry, I don’t see it.

What’s happening here Barry is that you’re trying to put Protestant argument and theology back onto a Catholic book. Your teachers say there is no Purgatory so you believe THEM. They apparantly have no answers for Paul’s teaching there. The language is crystal clear. A soul is being purified…BY fire. The classic purifying agent as even we see in it’s OT type Malachias (Malachi) 3:2-3

Do you see it now?

 

[dronald]

Sweet! I don’t have to wait till Christmas to find out how I did, do I?

In all seriousness, thank you for your answer and explaining your belief on the matter. Arguing about Purgatory is a worthless argument I believe, because if it does exist, then to be purged I shall go, and if Jesus paid the price once and for all, then straight to Heaven I shall go. It’s in God’s hands, and arguing won’t change what’s true and what’s not.

It simply doesn’t matter.

 

[steve_b]

Sweet! I don’t have to wait till Christmas to find out how I did, do I?

In all seriousness, thank you for your answer and explaining your belief on the matter. Arguing about Purgatory is a worthless argument I believe, because if it does exist, then to be purged I shall go, and if Jesus paid the price once and for all, then straight to Heaven I shall go. It’s in God’s hands, and arguing won’t change what’s true and what’s not.

It simply doesn’t matter.

Purgatory isn’t some plan B just in case plan A doesn’t fit. One has to die in the state of grace above all, and if one isn’t perfect at death and just has venial sins remaining on their soul at death, the soul still needs purification, before entrance to heaven. Those with mortal sin on their souls at death, however, go straight to hell.

I’m sure you have questions

 

[teeboy]

Why not purify yourself here by doing penance each week?

 

[BarryI]

Purgatory isn’t some plan B just in case plan A doesn’t fit. One has to die in the state of grace above all, and if one isn’t perfect at death and just has venial sins remaining on their soul at death, the soul still needs purification, before entrance to heaven. Those with mortal sin on their souls at death, however, go straight to hell.

I’m sure you have questions

No one can or will die in a state of grace unless they were Jesus. We as humans were born imperfect into an imperfect world under the influence of Satan. However that is why Jesus came, to die for our sins. Note he did not come to die for His sins( he didnt have any) but , for “Our” sins. This is why all of our sins are forgiven at death. This is perfectly in tune with God’s plan as He himself said "the wages of are death "

 

[steve_b]

No one can or will die in a state of grace unless they were Jesus.

I think there is a misunderstanding. Allow me to define what I mean by the term I used “state of grace”.

1861 describes sanctifying grace which in extension is being in the “state of grace.” Mortal sin, not venial sin, results in the loss of sanctifying grace i.e loss of being in the state of grace.

If you would like to see more about sanctifying grace and state of grace these links give short paragraph explanations from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Sanctifying grace http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=sanctifying+grace&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

State of grace http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=state+of+grace&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Mortal sin http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=mortal+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
B:

We as humans were born imperfect into an imperfect world under the influence of Satan. However that is why Jesus came, to die for our sins. Note he did not come to die for His sins( he didnt have any) but , for “Our” sins. This is why all of our sins are forgiven at death. This is perfectly in tune with God’s plan as He himself said "the wages of are death "

All our sins are NOT automatically forgiven at death.

Yes the wages of sin is death and all die because all sin, but not all sin leads to death 1 Jn 5:16]. Obviously death in the passage isn’t talking about physical death of the body. Everybody dies. The soul is immortal. Once created by God it lives forever. It doesn’t die, it doesn’t sleep. Therefore, the death refered to in that passage doesn’t concern the body, but refers to sanctifying grace in the soul, whereby without it, one can’t enter heaven. They’ve lost supernatural charity in the soul, (sanctifying grace), due to unforgiven mortal sin.

BTW, did you have any comments here? forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10919001&postcount=162

 

[BarryI]

I think there is a misunderstanding. Allow me to define what I mean by the term I used “state of grace”.

1861 describes sanctifying grace which in extension is being in the “state of grace.” Mortal sin, not venial sin, results in the loss of sanctifying grace i.e loss of being in the state of grace.

If you would like to see more about sanctifying grace and state of grace these links give short paragraph explanations from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Sanctifying grace http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=sanctifying+grace&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

State of grace http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=state+of+grace&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

Mortal sin http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=mortal+sin&xsubmit=Search&s=SS

All our sins are NOT automatically forgiven at death.

Yes the wages of sin is death and all die because all sin, but not all sin leads to death 1 Jn 5:16]. Obviously death in the passage isn’t talking about physical death of the body. Everybody dies. The soul is immortal. Once created by God it lives forever. It doesn’t die, it doesn’t sleep. Therefore, the death refered to in that passage doesn’t concern the body, but refers to sanctifying grace in the soul, whereby without it, one can’t enter heaven. They’ve lost supernatural charity in the soul, (sanctifying grace), due to unforgiven mortal sin.

BTW, did you have any comments here? forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10919001&postcount=162

I beg to differ. All sin leads to death as all will sin and all will die.As for the passage in 1John, he is stating that not all sin will be “deadly” as in being dead to the faith . Thats it nothing more.Which is why he was urging the brothers to pray to God to strengthen them in their faith otherwise they would fall away from truth and start believing and following pagan beliefs,which in turn was deadly.The sin that was not deadly was those listening to pagans and their beliefs,as this would indicate doubt in God and Jesus.But, once they started believing and practising false religions, that is when it became “deadly” as in dead to the Word of God.

 

[steve_b]

I beg to differ. All sin leads to death as all will sin and all will die.As for the passage in 1John, he is stating that not all sin will be “deadly” as in being dead to the faith . Thats it nothing more.Which is why he was urging the brothers to pray to God to strengthen them in their faith otherwise they would fall away from truth and start believing and following pagan beliefs,which in turn was deadly.The sin that was not deadly was those listening to pagans and their beliefs,as this would indicate doubt in God and Jesus.But, once they started believing and practising false religions, that is when it became “deadly” as in dead to the Word of God.

John is making a distinction between severity of sins…mortal and venial to use Catholic terms. Some sins as John says are mortal sins. What makes them deadly? As scripture says, If one dies with them on their soul, they will not inherit heaven

For example (note: the consequences to the sin)

• Titus 3: 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is )perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
• Ephesians 5: 3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
• Hebrews 10:25-26 missing mass deliberately, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
• Hebrews 12: 16 - 17 immoraliy, is selling your inheritance
• Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
• Romans 16:17… dividers don’t serve our Lord but themselves. Stay away from them. Satan will soon be crushed under your feet
• Colossians 3: 5-6 immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry, …rath of God is coming
• 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ἀρσενοκοίτης arsenokoitēs ], 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
• Matthew 15: 19 - 20 murder, adultery, false witness, slander…defile a man
• 2 Thes 1: 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

Where do all these souls go who die in mortal sins? As scripture says…NOT purgatory but Hell

 

[Isaiah45_9]

You my friend are absolutely right which is why Jesus never talked about it.

Are you claiming to know everything Jesus talked about?

 

[BarryI]

Are you claiming to know everything Jesus talked about?

No sir. Far from it. I only quote what Jesus talked about. If it wasn’t talked about by Him in the 4 gospels , then how can one say He talked about it. These doctrines came from the “minds of man” after a period long after Jesus left the earth. I have been directed to many verses in the bible by many, but still not one of them talks about a purging of sins spoken by Jesus . Once again I have to refer to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I’m it there was a great chasm between 2 places. There’s no in between that was spoken of. Only the two places . I’m sure if Jesus was telling this then that is the truth. He never depicted an intermediary place and if it was important them He surely would have stated it in the parable. ,and He didnt So no I do not claim to know everything Jesud talked about, I merely point out that He did not talk about a purging of sin.

 

[steve_b]

No sir. Far from it. I only quote what Jesus talked about. If it wasn’t talked about by Him in the 4 gospels , then how can one say He talked about it.

Barry,

Because He DID tell us IN THE GOSPEL

I pointed this out to you already. It’s absolutely clear.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10809805&postcount=150

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10914151&postcount=157

To explain again

When Paul taught the following, ( 1 Cor 3:13 - 15) Paul was taught that, via the Holy Spirit which the HS took from Jesus. Do you understand that? Here’s the proof. Open these passages and read them. John 14:25-26, John 16:12-15 . Jesus taught the following and wanted the following to be taught by Paul.

(all emphasis mine)
1 Corinthians 3 8 He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw – 13 each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

As an aside, this isn’t for those who die in mortal sin as I showed in my previous post… They go to hell, as scripture shows

 

[Porknpie]

No one can or will die in a state of grace unless they were Jesus. We as humans were born imperfect into an imperfect world under the influence of Satan. However that is why Jesus came, to die for our sins. Note he did not come to die for His sins( he didnt have any) but , for “Our” sins. This is why all of our sins are forgiven at death. This is perfectly in tune with God’s plan as He himself said "the wages of are death "

Barry,

We can agree that Christ has forgiven our sins …but only if we repent.

But forgiveness of sins is not the same as being made pure. Nothing impure shall enter heaven. When you die, you still have an inclination to sin. This is an impurity. The process of having that inclination to sin removed is through fire. What do you call this process? Catholics call it purgatory. There is no earthly time dimension to it…and there is not reason to believe that we would rather be on earth than go through that process…quite the opposite.

 

[dronald]

Barry,

We can agree that Christ has forgiven our sins …but only if we repent.

But forgiveness of sins is not the same as being made pure. Nothing impure shall enter heaven. When you die, you still have an inclination to sin. This is an impurity. The process of having that inclination to sin removed is through fire. What do you call this process? Catholics call it purgatory. There is no earthly time dimension to it…and there is not reason to believe that we would rather be on earth than go through that process…quite the opposite.

This is still an issue for me only because God could have just never let Jesus die for us then. God could have just allowed us to go to purgatory, or anyone for that matter. However this is contrary to Scripture; Jesus had to die and had to be raised from the dead.

1 corin 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

But according to Catholic’s, one can simply be placed in purgatory for his sins. So why did Christ need to die if one can simply go to purgatory for their sins?

 

[pablope]

I beg to differ. All sin leads to death as all will sin and all will die.As for the passage in 1John, he is stating that not all sin will be “deadly” as in being dead to the faith .

I beg your pardon…where doesn John talk about dead in faith in this part of the epistle?

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Purgatory: Holy Fire
SCOTT HAHN

Then, all of a sudden, I came across, read and then pondered a passage in 1st John, chapter 5. It says this, “If anyone sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal. I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.”

Now, John is talking about two kinds of sin. One is mortal, that is deadly. You cannot pray for somebody in mortal sin and sacrifice and have that prayer, intrinsically, be effective; whereas if somebody is in venial sin, you can actually, because you share a spiritual solidarity, you can actually sacrifice and pray on behalf of that person and in a sense restore them and strengthen them. Some sin kills. Other sin merely wounds. All sin is despicable. You might say, “Well, if it’s only venial, why not?” That’s not what the Church teaches or allows or implies. Somebody could say, “Well, look, if what I do doesn’t kill me, then, why don’t I go ahead and do it?”

You wouldn’t do that in natural life with your physical body. You wouldn’t say, “Well, I’m only going to be scarred for life. I’m only going to be maimed. I’m only going to be paralyzed; therefore, I can just go ahead and do these things. You know, third degree burns, but I can still breathe and metabolize.” No, we treat our bodies with respect. We’ve got to learn to treat our souls the same way. Just because a venal sin does not kill, it still scars and wounds and weakens and inclines us to mortal sin. All sin is despicable to God and to those who are His children.

But there is a distinction which John assumes. He doesn’t feel any need to argue it, but he takes it for granted. And I’ve got to tell you, when I first pondered this passage, it startled me because the conclusions are striking. Let’s keep that in mind because the definition assumes that prior understanding of the distinction between mortal and venial sins.

Now, let’s ask ourselves, “What is the evidence for this?” I want to share with you my own intellectual, spiritual pilgrimage on this particular point because, as I said, I didn’t just have intellectual problems, I had emotional problems, psychological difficulties with this teaching. One thing I did, though, was to ask the Lord to open my mind. And I continued to pray that as I went through the evidence for and against this idea of purgatory.

 

[pablope]

No sir. Far from it. I only quote what Jesus talked about. If it wasn’t talked about by Him in the 4 gospels , then how can one say He talked about it.

Actually, He did…it is just that you have interpreted it differently than the CC, for which the Bible was compiled for use during our Mass:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

“If any man’s work is burned up,” the wood, the hay and the straw, “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss.” Notice that wood is not as flammable as hay is consumed. So there are degrees of good works, gold and silver and so on, and degrees of venial sins. Jesus even talked about somebody would receive fewer stripes than another person. He talks about how, I think in Matthew 5, you won’t get out until you pay the last farthing or the last penny. So it depends on what we have done, what we will do because we have got to be purified in the Holy Spirit of God, which is fiery love. We have got to take up our cross. We are saved by Christ who is our foundation, but we have to build and what we build has to undergo the fiery judgment on the day.

Let’s turn to the gospel of Matthew. I’ve mentioned this already in passing. Let’s turn to Matthew 5:26. There Jesus says, “Make friends quickly with your accuser,” in verse 25, “while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hands you over to the judge and the judge to the guard and you be put in prison. Truly I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.” What is the presumption? Once you pay the last penny, you are going to get out. Where are you going to go then? To hell? No. You paid the last penny. You’re going to enter into the blessing at that point but only after you’ve paid the fine.

Matt 5:
25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court[k] with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

These doctrines came from the “minds of man” after a period long after Jesus left the earth. I have been directed to many verses in the bible by many, but still not one of them talks about a purging of sins spoken by Jesus .

 

[pablope]

This is still an issue for me only because God could have just never let Jesus die for us then. God could have just allowed us to go to purgatory, or anyone for that matter. However this is contrary to Scripture; Jesus had to die and had to be raised from the dead.

1 corin 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

But according to Catholic’s, one can simply be placed in purgatory for his sins. So why did Christ need to die if one can simply go to purgatory for their sins?/QUOTE]

Here is an exhaustive explanation, which goes to the root of the misunderstanding:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Purgatory: Holy Fire
SCOTT HAHN

On the one hand, as an Evangelical Protestant, I had firm convictions about the finished work of Jesus Christ; that He accomplished our redemption on the cross…the work of our redemption is accomplished. It is finished. But the application of that redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit is another matter, one that I did not really come to grips with because it involves suffering which nobody wants to come to grips with — either suffering in this life or suffering afterwards to expiate or to repay or to provide restitution for the effects of sin. …that Christ has accomplished our redemption. It’s over and done with. He has finished it. But then He sends the Holy Spirit to apply it, and the application of redemption is just as essential…That is not because Christ’s work is not enough. It’s rather the application of the work of Jesus Christ.

Those people who in God’s grace and mercy are allowed to enter into purgatory die in a state of grace, not just with supernatural faith and hope but with supernatural charity that was alive in their hearts and lives. That is the prerequisite for entering purgatory…Furthermore, we’ve got to clarify the fact that it is not to make up for Christ’s unfinished work. I’ve already said that, but that, too, is a common misconception that continually needs clarification. There’s nothing inadequate about the work of Christ. It’s finished, but it needs to be applied.

The essence of Christianity is Christ reproducing His life, His suffering, His death and then His resurrection in glory in us. That is the essence of Christianity…Non-Catholics frequently fall in the trap of saying, Christ obeyed, so we don’t need to. Paul said Christ obeyed to enable us to do what previously was humanly impossible. Finally now, heart obedient to a motive of faith, hope and love is made possible by Christ’s obedience, not made unnecessary.

Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.

 

[dronald]

dronald;10925537:

This is still an issue for me only because God could have just never let Jesus die for us then. God could have just allowed us to go to purgatory, or anyone for that matter. However this is contrary to Scripture; Jesus had to die and had to be raised from the dead.

1 corin 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.

But according to Catholic’s, one can simply be placed in purgatory for his sins. So why did Christ need to die if one can simply go to purgatory for their sins?/

QUOTE]

Here is an exhaustive explanation, which goes to the root of the misunderstanding:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Purgatory: Holy Fire
SCOTT HAHN

On the one hand, as an Evangelical Protestant, I had firm convictions about the finished work of Jesus Christ; that He accomplished our redemption on the cross…the work of our redemption is accomplished. It is finished. But the application of that redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit is another matter, one that I did not really come to grips with because it involves suffering which nobody wants to come to grips with — either suffering in this life or suffering afterwards to expiate or to repay or to provide restitution for the effects of sin. …that Christ has accomplished our redemption. It’s over and done with. He has finished it. But then He sends the Holy Spirit to apply it, and the application of redemption is just as essential…That is not because Christ’s work is not enough. It’s rather the application of the work of Jesus Christ.

Those people who in God’s grace and mercy are allowed to enter into purgatory die in a state of grace, not just with supernatural faith and hope but with supernatural charity that was alive in their hearts and lives. That is the prerequisite for entering purgatory…Furthermore, we’ve got to clarify the fact that it is not to make up for Christ’s unfinished work. I’ve already said that, but that, too, is a common misconception that continually needs clarification. There’s nothing inadequate about the work of Christ. It’s finished, but it needs to be applied.

The essence of Christianity is Christ reproducing His life, His suffering, His death and then His resurrection in glory in us. That is the essence of Christianity…Non-Catholics frequently fall in the trap of saying, Christ obeyed, so we don’t need to. Paul said Christ obeyed to enable us to do what previously was humanly impossible. Finally now, heart obedient to a motive of faith, hope and love is made possible by Christ’s obedience, not made unnecessary.

Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.

I still don’t see an explanation as to why Christ even had to die if remission of sins is as simple as being placed in purgatory for a longer time. The article says Jesus had to die, and that’s good; I know Catholics believe this, as do we. But it doesn’t explain why Jesus could have just never come, rather, He could have stayed in Heaven and allowed us to go to purgatory for our sins.

Did Jesus die simply to lessen the amount of time we spend in purgatory? Did He die so that we are allowed into purgatory for a short while instead of Hell? It all just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[BarryI]

Actually, He did…it is just that you have interpreted it differently than the CC, for which the Bible was compiled for use during our Mass: