Purgatory: a place of torment or not?

[RaiseMeUp]

So do we ALL go to purgatory? Is there no direct way into Heaven?? Do we have to go through purgatory no matter what???

 

[BarryI]

Barry, the same things can be said for non-catholics (and I have known more protestants who leave church and do the same things you are talking about.) They leave church, go home, get drunk, live in sexual sin and they believe their grace is a license to sin. Yes Catholics go to confession. Protestants just kinda say “sorry I sinned God, I won’t do it again, we’re cool now right?” But how do you know in your heart that you were truly repentant or forgiven? I think its a lot easier to repeat the same sins when you don’t have to confess and be held accountable, you can just blow it off and forget about it.

I agree. That is why only true believers repent and consciously are aware of their surroundings and every day actions so they please God.

 

[BarryI]

Barry, the same things can be said for non-catholics (and I have known more protestants who leave church and do the same things you are talking about.) They leave church, go home, get drunk, live in sexual sin and they believe their grace is a license to sin. Yes Catholics go to confession. Protestants just kinda say “sorry I sinned God, I won’t do it again, we’re cool now right?” But how do you know in your heart that you were truly repentant or forgiven? I think its a lot easier to repeat the same sins when you don’t have to confess and be held accountable, you can just blow it off and forget about it.

So do we ALL go to purgatory? Is there no direct way into Heaven?? Do we have to go through purgatory no matter what???

Jesus said on John 3. " No one has ascended to heaven,except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man "

 

[RaiseMeUp]

Yes, but he ascended body and all. And then there was the assumption of Mary, but what about those who die in this life. Does everyone go to Purgatory?? Im trying to better understand. I know that there is obviously a third place besides Heaven and hell - that the protestants do not recognize - Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death (Revelation 20:14) Luke 16:19-31** etc… So are those places there like “the abode of the dead” and “Hades” referring to purgatory?? And must we all go there first???

 

[Evan]

So do we ALL go to purgatory? Is there no direct way into Heaven?? Do we have to go through purgatory no matter what???

Of course not. Not those who have received their purgation in this life. The point of purgatory is to prepare you to stand in the presence of God. If you are already prepared, there you go.

 

[Christ_in_Linda]

I notice there is confusion regarding what happens after death. The Bible, of course, is our source for information and it speaks about this topic in the book of Luke. **Jesus Himself **tells us about two men who died; one was carried away by angels to Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22). Remember, before Jesus died for our sins, no one could enter into the presence of a holy God; therefore all believes went to wait in a place called Abraham’s bosom.In verse 25 Jesus said this man was comforted. In the following verse Jesus said there was a great gulf between the saved man, who was in a place called Abraham’s bosom and the unsaved man who was in torment in a place Jesus called Hades.Jesus said anyone who wshed to pass from one place to the other could not because of the fixed great gulf that was beween the two men. Jesus called the place where our father of faith was residing, Abraham’s bosom. All thosed saved would be next to Abraham. After Jesus redeemed us, Scripture does say He did descend. He proclaimed victory to both the evil spirits and to those believers who had waited for this day to come! All those who dwelt in Abraham’s bosom could now be taken to heaven with Jesus. Also look up Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption (rescued) through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace. Also look up John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. The thief on the cross that asked Jesus for forgiven was told by Jesus that he would be with Him in paradise that very day. The other one who rejected and ridiculed Jesus as his Savior was destined for hell; his own choice! Only the blood of Jesus can cleanse; not works.

 

[Evan]

I notice there is confusion regarding what happens after death. The Bible, of course, is our source for information and it speaks about this topic in the book of Luke. **Jesus Himself **tells us about two men who died; one was carried away by angels to Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22). Remember, before Jesus died for our sins, no one could enter into the presence of a holy God; therefore all believes went to wait in a place called Abraham’s bosom.In verse 25 Jesus said this man was comforted. In the following verse Jesus said there was a great gulf between the saved man, who was in a place called Abraham’s bosom and the unsaved man who was in torment in a place Jesus called Hades.Jesus said anyone who wshed to pass from one place to the other could not because of the fixed great gulf that was beween the two men. Jesus called the place where our father of faith was residing, Abraham’s bosom. All thosed saved would be next to Abraham. After Jesus redeemed us, Scripture does say He did descend. He proclaimed victory to both the evil spirits and to those believers who had waited for this day to come! All those who dwelt in Abraham’s bosom could now be taken to heaven with Jesus. Also look up Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have redemption (rescued) through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace. Also look up John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. The thief on the cross that asked Jesus for forgiven was told by Jesus that he would be with Him in paradise that very day. The other one who rejected and ridiculed Jesus as his Savior was destined for hell; his own choice! Only the blood of Jesus can cleanse; not works.

Those are an interesting interpretations, and it is difficult to comment on all of your personal interpretations.

1 The Bible is not our only source of information, we also must look to Church teachings protected from error by the Holy Spirit

2 The parable of Lasarus is not a literal description of the afterlife. In fact there has been much discussion concering the rich man… in Hell or Purgatory? Concerning Lasarus, did he need to go through purgatory and had completed it? or did his suffering at the rich man’s door prepare him to enter the limbo of the fathers.

3 And most importantly, you seem to be discussing salvation (which all in purgatory have won because they have persevered to the end) rather than purgation, the preparation for that which is to come.

As CS Lewis wrote in his Letter to Malcolm

Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’?

Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleaned first.’

‘It may hurt, you know’ -

'Even so, sir.’

 

[SEER_OF_CHRIST]

Purgatory is a place to PURGE one from their carnal sins committed in the body and the mind. This place is the here and now, we who are alive in the world all live in that place until God the Holy Spirit brings us into the fullness of Christ according to all His beatitidudes.

Zecharia 13.9
This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’"

 

[SEER_OF_CHRIST]

Hebrews 9 talks in context about the promise of eternal inheritance. This a faithful can only lay claim to their MANIFEST TOKEN, once they are purged by God the Holy Spirit in the here and now in this life.

The apostle who wrote this chapter had already seen Jesus as he confirms that the eternal inheritance is when he and others die to meet the lord the second time to be judged according to His White Throne Judgement. So ttherefore according to the verse below the White Throne Judgement is the separating of the sheep or goats that has been happening almost 2000 years now until the End of Age.

That is why in Revelation it states all eyes shall see him and this can only happen when a person eventually dies to face the judgement of the white throne of Christ. Take for example the chief priest who was told by Jesus that he will see the son of man sitting on the right hand of power. This happened to the chief rabinical priest when he eventually died to be judged as the goat and sent directly into outer darkness away from the light of the lord, meaning presence.

So the goats that are sent as disembodied souls into outerdarkness of hell await final execution in the lake of fire the second death, at the End of Age, this is the second death, the death of the soul.

That is why Christ would warn the faithful not to be found naked. Saint Paul states we earnestly await to be clothed when we die and not be found naked without a resurrection body.

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[BarryI]

Those are an interesting interpretations, and it is difficult to comment on all of your personal interpretations.

1 The Bible is not our only source of information, we also must look to Church teachings protected from error by the Holy Spirit

2 The parable of Lasarus is not a literal description of the afterlife. In fact there has been much discussion concering the rich man… in Hell or Purgatory? Concerning Lasarus, did he need to go through purgatory and had completed it? or did his suffering at the rich man’s door prepare him to enter the limbo of the fathers.

3 And most importantly, you seem to be discussing salvation (which all in purgatory have won because they have persevered to the end) rather than purgation, the preparation for that which is to come.

As CS Lewis wrote in his Letter to Malcolm

Are you sure church teachings are protected fro error by the Holy Spirit, or can they just be influenced by satan. Do you not believe satan and his followers would try their hardest to steer all awAy from bible truths through doctrines of man? Jesus Himself quoted Isaiah " this people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me . In vain do they worship Me. Teaching as doctrine, human precepts . Also you are assuming that Lazarus went to purgatory ? When Jesus clearly specified there was a great chasm between him and the rich man. Maybe I’m missing something here but that to me is an assumption.

 

[Christ_in_Linda]

Are you sure church teachings are protected fro error by the Holy Spirit, or can they just be influenced by satan. Do you not believe satan and his followers would try their hardest to steer all awAy from bible truths through doctrines of man? Jesus Himself quoted Isaiah " this people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me . In vain do they worship Me. Teaching as doctrine, human precepts . Also you are assuming that Lazarus went to purgatory ? When Jesus clearly specified there was a great chasm between him and the rich man. Maybe I’m missing something here but that to me is an assumption.

There is no pugartory. If there was such a place God would have informed us about it.
Believers in Christ’s finished work makes us bound for heaven when we die. Lazarus could not go directly to heaven because Jesus had not yet been born and died as our sacrifial Lamb. Lazarus was an Old Testament believer, but not born again. He had to wait with all the OT believers until Christ’s finished work and then He went up to heaven; cleaned by the blood of the Lamb.

 

[pablope]

E=BarryI;10937298]Are you sure church teachings are protected fro error by the Holy Spirit, or can they just be influenced by satan.

Jesus promised the guidance of the HS to the Apostles…do you doubt Jesus’ promise?

Do you not believe satan and his followers would try their hardest to steer all awAy from bible truths through doctrines of man?

Sure…I would say the start of Sola Scriptura…the protestant paradigm of private interpretation…and the result of thousands of protestant denoms…and each with their own versions of what the Bible teaches…is a start of the creation of the doctrines of man.

Where do you think these protestant teachings started…OSAS, eternal security, disbelief in the Real Presence, disregard for the ministerial priesthood, rejection of sacraments…this is just scratching the surface of protestant innovations.

Jesus Himself quoted Isaiah " this people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me . In vain do they worship Me. Teaching as doctrine, human precepts .

Let me ask you…which Bible do you have…the protestant 66 book bible or the 73 book Bible?

Which do you think is of human precepts?

QUOTE] Also you are assuming that Lazarus went to purgatory ? When Jesus clearly specified there was a great chasm between him and the rich man. Maybe I’m missing something here but that to me is an assumption.

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Over and over again we see these passages. I want to give you a quotation. Actually just a few to close this up because I have a few that really helped me out. One of the greatest scholars of the last 100 years was a man by the name of R.H. Charles. He wrote a humungus work entitled A Critical History of the Doctrine of the Future Life in Israel in Judaism and in Christianity. He comments upon the verse I just read in Matthew 12:32. He says, "Now such a statement would not only be meaningless, but also misleading in the highest degree if in the next life forgiveness were a thing impossible. Likewise the saying in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5:26, which we read just a minute ago, “Thou shalt then by no means come out until thou hast paid the last farthing” admits of a like interpretation.

It may not be amiss likewise to find signs of this moral amelioration in the rich man in Hades who appeals to Abraham on behalf of his five brothers still on earth, in Luke 16. Remember the story of Lazarus and the rich man? The rich man is in fire, but he calls out, “Father Abraham,” and Abraham responds, “My son, or my child.” Well all that man had done was to feast sumptuously. He didn’t go around beating Lazarus and other poor people. He just ate sumptuously. He neglected the poor. Not a mortal sin in and of itself, to be sure. And he says, “Father Abraham, just let Lazarus know. Have mercy on me.” He didn’t say, “This is unfair. I shouldn’t be in hell.” He says, “Have mercy on me. Just get Lazarus to dip his little finger tip in water and put it on the tip of my tongue. I don’t deserve it, but it’s mercy.”

Is that a soul in hell filled with the hatred of God? St. Teresa says, “There is no love in hell.” And yet, this man pleads, not on his own behalf, but he says, “Please send Lazarus back to my five brothers so that they will believe in time.” Abraham says, “Even if a man came back from the dead, it wouldn’t be enough. They’ve got Moses, the law and the prophets. That’s enough.” But ironically, who did Jesus raise from the dead? A man named Lazarus. And was it enough for the Jews to believe in Jesus then? No. They not only wanted to kill Jesus, they even sought to kill Lazarus because so many people were still believing in Jesus because of him.

But look at Luke 16 and realize that this man is there for neglecting the poor. He is in fire, recognizing Abraham as his father. Abraham recognizing him as my child. This man pleading for mercy in the form of a drop of water and then pleading on behalf of his brothers who were still on earth. Do souls intercede with God for mercy? Hardly. And yet look at what the story assumes. Look at what Jesus doesn’t even feel it necessary to argue.

 

[pablope]

There is no pugartory. If there was such a place God would have informed us about it.

How do you know this Linda? What is your basis for saying this statement above?

Is everything Jesus said in the Bible?

Or is the issue your interpretation?

BLamb. Lazarus was an Old Testament believer, but not born again. He had to wait with all the OT believers until Christ’s finished work and then He went up to heaven; cleaned by the blood of the Lamb.elievers in Christ’s finished work makes us bound for heaven when we die. Lazarus could not go directly to heaven because Jesus had not yet been born and died as our sacrifial

 

[Christ_in_Linda]

How do you know this Linda? What is your basis for saying this statement above?

 

[steve_b]

Jesus also never said that we WERE to pay a price! Salvation is free!!! to us. To say anything else is to misquote the bible! Grace is unmerited favor - unmerited is used here to indicate it is FREE!!

Just to clarify

The price we pay is obedience to the faith once for all given to the saints. To sacrifice our human will daily in favor of doing the will of God. That’s not easy. The price we pay is to pick up Our cross daily and follow Him. That’s not easy. Keeping all His commandments perfectly. iow, not sinning, that’s not easy. Bottomline, salvation comes by doing things His way not ours. The road to perdition is wide and easy and many are on it, while the road to life, is narrow and hard, and few find it. Matthew 7:13

 

[pablope]

OTE=Christ in Linda;10937703]

Linda…with all due respect…I asked you several questions, I did ask you to preach…and I asked you to read the catholic proof of purgatory…so what say you about the article?

And the questions you missed:

[SIGN]How do you know this Linda? What is your basis for saying this statement above?

Is everything Jesus said in the Bible?

Or is the issue your interpretation?[/SIGN]

That is why David prayed to God and asked God not to take His Holy Spirit from him because David was an OT believer, not yet washed by the blood of the Lamb, but by the blood of goats and bulls which could only temporarily remove sin.

Did you know how David was forgiven of his sin of adultery?

2Sam 12:

7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says:…11 “This is what the Lord says: ‘Out of your own household I am going to bring calamity on you. Before your very eyes I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight. 12 You did it in secret, but I will do this thing in broad daylight before all Israel.’”

13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.”

Nathan replied, “The Lord has taken away your sin. You are not going to die. 14 But because by doing this you have shown utter contempt for[a] the Lord, the son born to you will die.”

David does oral confession through Nathan…and Nathan pronounces the absolution and David is forgiven.

So where does the passage show David offering aninal sacrifice for his sins?

You can be assured of your salvation and not have to think twice about a place that you call purgatory.

Actually, I would eternally thank God’s mercy if I make it to purgatory for further cleansing of my sinful self.

Let me ask you Linda…Rev says nothing unclean can enter heaven.

So, if you die today…do you think you are clean enough to enter heaven? Have you purged yourself completely of your sinful nature that you can stand before God and tell Him you are completely free of sin?

Man is unable to earn his way to the Father; that is considered self righteous just like the Pharisees Jesus rebuked. This is GOOD news!

Tell me if this is not being self righteous…believing in yourself and judging yourself that you are worthy and clean to go enter heaven?

 

[LionHeart777]

Christ in Linda:

Perhaps (if I’m not misunderstanding your last response) you are confusing the objective Redemption obtained by Christ with the subjective application of the Redemption to each person.

Could you please answer these two questions:

Are most of us still sinning at the end of this life?

Is anyone sinning in Heaven?

 

[Christ_in_Linda]

Isaiah 64:6 lets us know that what we think is good works are like filthy rags. We can’t compare oursleves to God’s holiness in our fallen state. The angel announced the God-Man had arrived and He would save the world from their sins; the Savior. What has He saved us from? If He didn’t need to come to redeem us than why would God put His Son through such suffering? God should have kept His Son in heaven with Him if He died in vain and He did not accomplish anything. That would be erroneous!

 

[LionHeart777]

To the OP:

The following from the Catholic Answers’ tract “The Roots of Purgatory”, gives some good insight:

Some imagine that the Catholic Church has an elaborate doctrine of purgatory worked out, but there are only three essential components of the doctrine: (1) that a purification after death exists, (2)** that it involves some kind of pain**, and (3) that the purification can be assisted by the prayers and offerings by the living to God. Other ideas, such that purgatory is a particular ‘place’ in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

Source: catholic.com/tracts/the-roots-of-purgatory

(Emphasis mine)

 

[SEER_OF_CHRIST]

Purgatory by definition is a place of testing and of purging ones sins. This is in the now and here whilst we are still alive. As Hebrews author writes once we die then it is judgement, that is, the coming of the Lord, the white throne judgement.

That is why the parable of the thief which represents death when it comes in a day and hour that we know not to break our earthly house, our bodies then is the coming of the Lord.

Purgatory after death is biblically unfounded because then it would denigrate our Lord as to imply that Christ didn’t finish the job concerning our salvation and he needs to somehow manifest himself the second time to finish it of.

Even more concerning for those that believe in a waiting pending judgement is to completely take out the sanctifying functional role of God the Holy Spirit who sees the job through to its completion in every sanctified believer when they die to receive their manifest token that was already Laid up for them by Christ, to be claimed once a faithful dies in Christ.

That is why Christ would say let no man deceive you to take away your crown. This crown is the manifest token (2 thessalonians 1:5) associated with the already finished works of Christ in leaving each and every one of us our eternal inheritance.

To say that Christ needs to physically come to earth to put the cherry on top so to speak, is a flagrant lie that implies that Christ left us no inheritance when we die, hence we must wait in continual judgement until the end of age along with the wicked.

Saint Paul contended with such false teaching in his days of church fathers who denied being the resurrection of the dead as written in:

1 Corinthians 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

If you read the whole context of 1 Corinthians 15 you will understand that Saint Paul is telling the false teachers that if there be no resurrection of the dead write here and now and need to await in hoping of it, then truly we are all miserable because we don’t know our fate and have no inheritance in that respect.

Saint Paul States why say some amongst you that there is no resurrection of the dead.