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pocohombre
Guest
How long does it take to wash our feet ? To be judged?
The bible if full of congregational purging,be it OT or NT not to mention history. With either view of “church”, most agree on it’s purging thru out history
- Status
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BarryI
Guest
No, because at that time there was no so called Bible. Only scripture from the OT. and word of mouth
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Christ_in_Linda
Guest
Jesus is the only foundation; not a denomination or building.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For NO OTHER FOUNDATION can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
In the gospel of John, he emphasizes that Jesus is God come down in the flesh. Jesus is the Word and they cannot be separated. Jesus repeatedly said when a person looks upon Him they are seeing the perfect representation of the Father.Jesus and His word are synonymous. The Bible is the inspired Word of God. I don’t know how anyone could thin otherwise, but God is the highest authority and He has the greatest wisdom and knowledge and since He has chosen to write down some of His words for us, I definitely will read it and use His Word to renew my mind because that is what God tells us to do and I am going to be obedient to His leading.
He alone is my Rock and my salvation; Psalm 62:2
In the Book of Isaiah, God says, "Come now, let us reason together.
In order to ‘reason’ we must hear what HIS reasoning is.
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we may KNOW HIM who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and etrnal LIFE.
We can NEVER understand God’s mind by relying on our own intelligence; the ‘world’ has influenced it since we were babies and we can’t trust it. God compells us to read His written Word so that we may have the mind of Christ; not the mind of any other person, flawed and imperfect in our bodies and minds and so we must read His Word to renew our way of thinking.
Jesus said it this way
“Whoever comes to Me, and HEARS My sayings and DOES THEM, I will show you whom he is like; He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the steam beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:47-48
Paul wrote in Hebrews 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead; that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of EVERLASTING covenant., make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is pleasing in HIS sight, through Jesus Christ, ro whom be glory forever and forever.
I want to know what is pleasing in HIS sight; therefore I must seek to find out just what that is and I find the answers in His Word!
1 Corinthians 2:16 For who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
After we are born again, our spirit is perfect and righteous and the Holy Spirit now dwells within us to guide and teach and learn and the Holy spirit accomplishes this by helping us understand His Word.
Philippians 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.
A Triune God; equal yet with different applications in our lives!
I want to obey God and learn what He desires to tell me and, by faith, act upon it and continue to renew my mind as I obey Him.
I believe what He says and I only let Him lead me; that is wisdom. I trust Him completely.
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steve_b
Guest
Just a few comments
In the 1st century, the letters and Gospels we call the NT, while written, but weren’t collected into one official collection and canonized, till 381 a.d. at the council of Rome. Therefore while this collection we call the NT wasn’t officially regarded as scripture…yet the Church followed the letters and the gospels even before they were canonized. As an aside, The Church at Corinth even read St Clements letter to them, at their liturgies, as if it was scripture. Obviously when the scriptures were decided on and canonized, letters like this didn’t make it into the canon. Re: the OT, that collection of books wasn’t collected into a canon either during the 1st century. Greek speaking Jews had a different set of books they read from than the Jews in Judea.
Either way, before we had the official canons of scriptures, and even before the NT was written, we had the Catholic Church
For example
It’s thought ~77 a.d. Acts of the apostles was written. This is also during the time of Ignatius who was Bishop of Antioch from ~69 a.d. to ~107a.d.
So even though at the time, Acts wasn’t considered scripture yet, this is the teaching that went out from the apostles. In this case Luke wrote
iow (the Church ἐκκλησίατῆς] ) (throughout all καθ’kata ὅληςholos] ) is the Kataholos Church = Catholic Church. The English word catholic is a transliteration of the Greek katholikos which is a compound word from kata, which means according to, and holos, which means whole. catholic.com/tracts/what-catholic-means . Therefore, 1 Timothy 3:15 refers to this Church, the Catholic Church as the pillar and foundation of truth
- St IgnatiusBp of Antioch, ~69 a.d. - ~107 a.d., ordained by apostles, disciple of St John the apostle, called the Church the Catholic Church Epistle to the Smyrnæansof which schismatics won’t be going to heaven Epistle to the Philadelphians
- St Polycarp, Bp Smyrna, disciple of St John called the Church the “Catholic Church” The Martyrdom of Polycarp
- Muratorian canon earlychristianwritings.com/text/muratorian.html
- Irenaeus ~180 a.d. wrote “Against Heresies” called the Church the “Catholic Church” Adversus haereses [Bk 1 Ch 10 v 3], and also Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp, teaches all must agree with Rome [Bk 3, Ch 3, v 2-3]Chapter 3
- Cyprian~250 a.d. Epistle 54
- The Nicene Creed, 325 a.d., it’s a matter of faith to believe in the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church”
- Council of Rome 382 the Catholic Church established the canon of scripture that we have today. 27 books NT, 73 books in the OT
- Augustine ~395 There are many other things that most justly keep me in her * bosom. . . . The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house.Against the Epistle of Manichaeus Called Fundamental
- etc etc etc
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steve_b
Guest
Think about that. Protestantism is a 100% human creation, started in the 16th century, that opposed the one and only Church that Jesus established…
Good. Because what He builds there is no division. There is no such thing as seperate but equal. What He expects then, is perfect unity not only among His ministers, but all those who come to faith through them. iow all are in the one Church that He builds. No division of any kind John 17:20-23 . Those who divide or are divided from the Church He builds are living in acts of the flesh, and won’t inherit heaven. Galatians 5:19-21 even though Paul wrote that, it originated from the HS John 14:25-26 who received that from Jesus John 16:12-15 Therefore, the one who will judge ALL, is saying I want everyone in the Catholic Church.
If you like the promises in the NT, and want to obey God, then know those are Catholic books you’re reading from, written in, by, for, the Catholic Church. Therefore, join the Church Jesus builds, and gave all His promises too, that also wrote those books, and you’ll know you will be doing the will of God. John 17:20-23
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Gidge
Guest
Purgatory is a place of torment – the good news is that although the pains will be just as bad as Hell, we’ll have Our Lady and the angels and saints to encourage us and help us through this purification process – and we’ll know that one day we will be in Heaven.
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pocohombre
Guest
Does the catechism say it is a place ? It certainly says it is an event, just as being born again, being judged and seeing Him face to face is and will be. Does the catechism say anything about time? Is there any time in the hereafter, a twinkling of an eye, a thousand years, a day ?Purgatory is a place of torment – the good news is that although the pains will be just as bad as Hell, we’ll have Our Lady and the angels and saints to encourage us and help us through this purification process – and we’ll know that one day we will be in Heaven.
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Gidge
Guest
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Christ_in_Linda
Guest
Jesus is the One who came to earth to suffer and die for our sins. Our righteousness is like filthy rags. God is holy, righteous, and absolutely perfect. When He created Adam in the Garden of Eden, God breathed life into him and he became alive. Adam was created in God’s likeness; definitely not physically because God is a Spirit. Adam ‘listened’ to the enemy and doubte4d God’s words that were spoken to him and that is why Adam was able to be deceived. Adam’s sin caused all the humanb race to become a sinner. We are born a sinner; thus it is nothing that we did. All we have to do to be labeled a sinner is to be born. Therefore, to be born again, all we have to do is to accept the GIFT of righteousness which was established by Jesus, our Savior.m The Bible calls Jesus the second Adam.
Romans 5:15-17 But the FREE GIFT is not likje the offense. For if by one man’s offense many died, much more the GRACE OF GOD and the GIFT by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Chrsit, abounded to many. And the GIFT is not like4 that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense RESELTED IN CONDEMNATION, but the FREE GIFT which came from many offenses RESULTED IN JUSTIFICATION. For by the one mans’ offense death reigned through the one, MUCH MORE THOSE who receive abundance of grace and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Here it is written in God’s Word;
Romans 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were MADE SINNERS, so also by one Man’s OBEDIENCE many will be MADE righteous.
You see, that the explanation of mankind becoming a sinner through Adam’s disobedience and mankind being set free by the shed blood of the perfect Lamb, Jesus Christ. Scripture says it is a FREE gift, but like any other gift it must be accepted in order to possess it; you do have the right to reject it. If you do reject His finished work for you, then there is no hope left for you to enter into God’s presence.
Once we die, we either go to heaven or hell; immediately.
In 2 Corinthians Paul says, Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a GUARANTEE. So we arre ALWAYS CONFIDENT, KNOWING that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord. For we walk BY FAITH, NOT by siight. We are CONFIDENT, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Paul is saying whether I am dead or alive, I can be confident that the Lord is with me.
The same truth is shared with us while Jesus was hanging on the cross between two criminals. One mocked jesus, but the other humbled himself and admitted he was a sinner in need of a Savior and Jesus responded to this man by saying that very day this man would be with Him. This criminal did not have time to be baptized, or make restitution of any sort, yet Jesus accepted this criminal into His kingdom because the criminal asked for forgiveness and asked Jesus to remember him; that’s all! It isn’t complicated. This criminal did not6 have to suffer for his sins; that is what Jesus was doing on the cross; suffering in his place so that this criminal’s sins would be placed under the blood where God cannot even see them. God will accept nothing less than His own Son’s shed blood; you can’t6 add nothing to it! do you really think Jesus’ sacrifice was inferior in ANY way? Oh no, it was perfect and complete; Jesus did not forget even one of our sins; not one. he paid for them all!
Peter attempted to sway Jesus’ misssion by saying he wouldn’t allow Jesus to die, but Jesus did not appreciate this temptation which came from Satan himself. If Satan could have prevented Jesus from dying on the cross for our sins; we would be doomed for all time. We would have no hope, but Jesus DIDN’'T succomb to the temptation, even though He was so apprehensive of His mission He sweat drops of blood in the Gar5den of Gethsemane. How thankful I am for His obedience!!
When Jesus walked the earth, He often marveled at their unbelief and their hardened hearts.
Let’s not be like one of them, but let us be quick to believe Him and accept His words and not disregard them in unbelief. God the Father will be pleased.
Romans 5:15-17 But the FREE GIFT is not likje the offense. For if by one man’s offense many died, much more the GRACE OF GOD and the GIFT by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Chrsit, abounded to many. And the GIFT is not like4 that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense RESELTED IN CONDEMNATION, but the FREE GIFT which came from many offenses RESULTED IN JUSTIFICATION. For by the one mans’ offense death reigned through the one, MUCH MORE THOSE who receive abundance of grace and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Here it is written in God’s Word;
Romans 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were MADE SINNERS, so also by one Man’s OBEDIENCE many will be MADE righteous.
You see, that the explanation of mankind becoming a sinner through Adam’s disobedience and mankind being set free by the shed blood of the perfect Lamb, Jesus Christ. Scripture says it is a FREE gift, but like any other gift it must be accepted in order to possess it; you do have the right to reject it. If you do reject His finished work for you, then there is no hope left for you to enter into God’s presence.
Once we die, we either go to heaven or hell; immediately.
In 2 Corinthians Paul says, Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a GUARANTEE. So we arre ALWAYS CONFIDENT, KNOWING that while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord. For we walk BY FAITH, NOT by siight. We are CONFIDENT, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Paul is saying whether I am dead or alive, I can be confident that the Lord is with me.
The same truth is shared with us while Jesus was hanging on the cross between two criminals. One mocked jesus, but the other humbled himself and admitted he was a sinner in need of a Savior and Jesus responded to this man by saying that very day this man would be with Him. This criminal did not have time to be baptized, or make restitution of any sort, yet Jesus accepted this criminal into His kingdom because the criminal asked for forgiveness and asked Jesus to remember him; that’s all! It isn’t complicated. This criminal did not6 have to suffer for his sins; that is what Jesus was doing on the cross; suffering in his place so that this criminal’s sins would be placed under the blood where God cannot even see them. God will accept nothing less than His own Son’s shed blood; you can’t6 add nothing to it! do you really think Jesus’ sacrifice was inferior in ANY way? Oh no, it was perfect and complete; Jesus did not forget even one of our sins; not one. he paid for them all!
Peter attempted to sway Jesus’ misssion by saying he wouldn’t allow Jesus to die, but Jesus did not appreciate this temptation which came from Satan himself. If Satan could have prevented Jesus from dying on the cross for our sins; we would be doomed for all time. We would have no hope, but Jesus DIDN’'T succomb to the temptation, even though He was so apprehensive of His mission He sweat drops of blood in the Gar5den of Gethsemane. How thankful I am for His obedience!!
When Jesus walked the earth, He often marveled at their unbelief and their hardened hearts.
Let’s not be like one of them, but let us be quick to believe Him and accept His words and not disregard them in unbelief. God the Father will be pleased.
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Church_Militant
Guest
You guys trying to deny that there is a Purgatory would do well to look at it more closely with an open mind. I did, and it resulted in the following blog article.
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory
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MJCamp
Guest
There is no time outside of our Earthly realm. When one is pure and clean then will be welcomed into heaven. The prayers of the faithful can help alleviate this process. The suffering in Hell is relentless and there are no breaks. There is no hope. One is seperated forever, eternity. I could not imagine those who suffer there forever with no recourse
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MJCamp
Guest
This sure would be Great!!! However we Catholics all know this argument has been formed by those who nitpick scripture and conform it to fit their beliefs. Part of the reformation of man’s new church. Once saved always saved, is another falsehood spread by those who take scripture and interpret it to fit their own lifestyle. Jesus clearly warns us of these false teachings and the persecution of the Truth! Which is his One, Holy, Apostolic Church
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Topaz1128
Guest
That is a really good book. I also recommend it.
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Christ_in_Linda
Guest
I did not speak any false teachings! I am very careful to quote Scripture and most often Jesus’ own words. Some do perfer men’s words, but I don’t. I do instead incline my ears to hear what He has to say; now that is true revelation.
The bible does not speak of a purgatory. Jesus did not teach His disciples this place existed; therefore, it is not an issue.
The ONLY Person who can save us is Jesus and ther is no other name under heaven in which we MUST be saved.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there SALVATION IN ANY OTHER, FOR THERE IS NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN BY WHICH WE must BE SAVED.
What has God said in this verse that is controversial? They aren’t my words; I didn’t make them up.
1 timothy 2:5 For there is ine God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who GAVE HIMSELF a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
The drfinition of a mediator is one who helps to settle a dispute.
Mankind had a huge problem. Adam sinned and brought all of mankind into sin also and now everyone who is born is labeled a sinner. . . .automatically. So it wasn’t because of particular sins they committed because we are sinners the moment we pop out of our mother’s womb! We are sinners not by sinning and we are also by not good works but by receiving the GIFT of righteousness which was paid for by Jesus, the Savior.
No one else can be a person’s mediator! No one else is qualified because every one else is born a sinner; except Jesus who did not inherit Joseph’s tainted blood.
It is the atoning blood of Jesus that pays the debt of sin that we owe. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.
God, Himself, required a perfect sacrifice; one untouched by sin.
2 Corinthians 5:21 For he MADE Him who knew no sin to be sin FOR US, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
This is very easy to understand. It is in Christ alone in which we place our trust for the GIFT of salvation and eternal life with Him.
Your are saying that Jesus lied to the criminal on the cross when Jesus forgave him and told him he would be with Jesus that very day; no stops, no suffering, no human effort, but acknowledging Jesus’ FINISHED work for those who will call upon His name just like the criminal did. You are insinuating that you need to add to Jesus’ work and that He didn’t complete His mission!
When Jesus died even the veil was ripped from top to bottom exposing the Holy of Holies because the redeemed could now be reconciled to God.
The Bible says because Now, there is no more condemnation for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS.
He is the only One whom we can place our trust in and no one else.No one can see the Father except through Him. There are many roads that might seem right but they will lead to destruction. Again, not my words, but His.
The things you arer advocating is making the word of God of none effect and you’re saying the Good News of salvation is not as it seems; it is a lie. You’re advocating working to earn salvation; being tormented and suffering. That is NOT good news!! It also is no where to be found in the teachings of Christ. I believe Jesus! He was with the Father before He became flesh and He knows for sure the reality of what happens after death and the two places where the dead go. Like Jesus taight, it is a choice. If you dhoose not to believe Him than you’ll believe a lie.As for me, I chose life and an eternity spent with Him! He purchased it and I’ve accepted His GIFT and I love Him dearly for His amazing sacrifice!
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Christ_in_Linda
Guest
I do not understand why you want this horrible place to exist; even if it is only a figment of some men’s imagination! Jesus walked the earth and taught the whole time; for 3 1/2 years He shared the truth. The Bible says if all were placed in writing, the books of the whole world could not contain all His truths. Don’t you think Jesus would have spoken about this half way ‘house’ for rebells if it existed? I know He would have bcause He taught about all that was important. He told His disciples that He HAD to suffer for the sins of man; He did not have any sins so we know it wasn’t for Himself!! His death was done willingly; He could have chose to call upon angels and millions would have responed in seconds, but He didn’t. He was faithful to the will of His Father to the very end. Thank you Jesus for not giving in to the physical pain, ridicule, emotional pain, etc. or we would have been doomed; never to see God and spend eternity with Him. Jesus stuck it out; He is like steel and velvet combined; awesome! All the chief priests and elders plotted against Jesus to put Him to death./COLOR]
After Jesus died: Matthew 27:51-53 Then behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from TOP to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split; and the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.and coming out of the graves after His resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Wow! That is the resurrection power of Jesus, our Savior! There was such power when God resurrected His Son that many other people came back into their bodies also and walked in the city!
The Bible teaches we will, one day, have a resurrected body just like Jesus had when He walked the earth those 40 days. . . .how exciting! He is always true to His word and he won’t let us down; he promisesw he will NEVER leave us nor forsake us. Amen to that!!
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MJCamp
Guest
Not denying that one goes to Heaven or Hell. And there is no doubt that many protestants are great people and are closer to the Lord than I. But, through no fault of their own, have conformed scripture to match their beliefs. Removing books from the Bible and using different English translations than what the original writings we’re intending to convey.
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell.Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God.Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the “prison.” These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell.Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God.Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
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pocohombre
Guest
One must be careful and realize that this topic is difficult and has never been clear cut, even according to CC. At the beginning(2nd century) they believed in it differently. Some even believed in a 100 year cleansing (after Jesus’s return?), some believed in two purgatories, some real fire, some spiritual fire. In my opinion it ain’t pretty. The doctrine clearly evolved.That early fathers second century on spoke of it, or that some in Judaism practiced prayer for dead is not overlooked by detractors. Just that the arguments are weak compared to the clarity of more basic teachings of our faith, and to sticking to scripture.For Judaism did some things that were not scriptural, but speculative. Because some did this or that does not make it correct in Christ’s new light. For sure they(Jews) did some things correctly, and for sure the early fathers said some things correctly,things that are indeed universal,catholic, that we can all agree on. Unfortunately, purgatory does not seem to be one of them in my opinion. Even reformers like Luther kept many Catholic teachings and traditions,but not this one.
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pocohombre
Guest
Thanks but…I understand some of the basis for this doctrine.May is say that FBI agents trained to spot counterfeit money spend little time studying a counterfeit bills. Instead they spend hours and hours doing one thing and one thing only-they examine real money. So much so that you stick a phony bill in a stack of real ones and it sticks out like a sore thumb to them.I think if we examine scripture and Christs’s (God’s) redemptive work in OT and NT, today’s version of purgatory seems foreign. Oh we will be purged from all sin.We shall be like Him.We shall be judged,even our works.What we do in Christ will also be judged and rewarded accordingly. For sure some of our works are wood and hay ,and some silver and gold.For sure we will lose wood works and hay works but rewarded for gold and silver works. For sure even the least of us may see His face when absent from the body, and not just martyrs or special elect or predestined, for we are all at least the latter two.
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pocohombre
Guest
Amen sister preach it !
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Gidge
Guest
Question 414 of the Baltimore catechism states:
Purgatory is a state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.
Some here have opined that time will not be in play after death, I disagree, as the prayers for indulgences used to have a number of days attached to them (I know the nomenclature now is “partial” or “plenary” – but this makes no difference, as the four last things have not changed just because we refer to them in a different manner).
Some have said a day is like a thousand years, well, according to the book I suggested (based on the lives and legends of the saints) it seems that the opposite is true.
Granted, we are not bound to accept (non-dogmatically-defined) private revelations – but one of the stories from the book stands out in my mind. There was a lay brother who died and asked a priest to say a Mass for the repose of his soul on his deathbed. The lay brother appeared to the priest after he had said the Mass, and the soul of the lay brother was admitted into Heaven and thanked him, asking why he waited so long (a number of years) to offer Mass for the lay brother’s soul ? The priest told the apparition of the lay brother (now a saint in Heaven) that he said the Mass within 15 minutes of the lay brother’s passing.
Purgatory is a state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.
Some here have opined that time will not be in play after death, I disagree, as the prayers for indulgences used to have a number of days attached to them (I know the nomenclature now is “partial” or “plenary” – but this makes no difference, as the four last things have not changed just because we refer to them in a different manner).
Some have said a day is like a thousand years, well, according to the book I suggested (based on the lives and legends of the saints) it seems that the opposite is true.
Granted, we are not bound to accept (non-dogmatically-defined) private revelations – but one of the stories from the book stands out in my mind. There was a lay brother who died and asked a priest to say a Mass for the repose of his soul on his deathbed. The lay brother appeared to the priest after he had said the Mass, and the soul of the lay brother was admitted into Heaven and thanked him, asking why he waited so long (a number of years) to offer Mass for the lay brother’s soul ? The priest told the apparition of the lay brother (now a saint in Heaven) that he said the Mass within 15 minutes of the lay brother’s passing.
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