Purgatory and prayer

[Vico]

… a formal doctrine, the Trinity did not exist until 300 years after Jesus died - which was my point all along.

The Apostles Creed was and is authoritative. Also, there were various formal Trinitarian doctrinal statements in the second century, expressed in the writings of early Fathers such as Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, Tertullian, Bishop of Carthage, and Origen, Alexandrian theologian.

 

[Poet]

This is more compatible with a loving God, and answers a major attack against Christianity. Specifically - you sin, your choice, you don’t want to be with God - as opposed to you sin, my rules, burn forever.

But what do you think being apart from God means? Do you think al those who choose an eternity apart from God are just going to be having a party together in some other part of the universe? Continue to live on earth for all eternity? Where do we go for eternity if we choose not to be with God?

What if there are only two choices: Heaven and the ‘lake of fire’ where Satan and his demons are sent?

The way I see purgatory is this: If you make a long, arduous journey to a friend’s house, and his house is all white furniture and white carpets, you arrive muddy and dirty, you would want to get cleaned up before walking into his home and getting things filthy.

In the same way, the soul that sees the glory of God and Heaven wants to be spotless to enter.

While I have not researched the topic thoroughly, part of my understanding of the pain of purgatory or hell is that maybe some of it is expressed in terms of physical suffering because in our human existence we can’t fully comprehend the spiritual pain of separation from God.

If indeed there are only two choices after death, then I see great love from God in all the graces and help He gives us to choose Heaven, in His mercy that lasts right up until the moment of death, in sending His Son to die so we can be forgiven, in having a place where we can have final purification so that we aren’t faced with going to hell for all eternity unless we live perfect lives.

 

[thistle]

Yes this is the concept of Purgatory - a “cleansing” according to the catechism. But is this ‘cleansing’ painless? How long does it take? Is it a punishment or not?
If it is NOT a punishment and is painless - we agree.
The point is that if Hell is not suffering but separation from God, why is Purgatory required if it is a punishment. An immediate cleansing? Fine. But why would a loving God require a painful amount of suffering for a specific time to enter Heaven?
I continue to maintain that the concept of Hell as a state rather than place is inconsistent with Purgatory.

Well your thoughts on Hell and Purgatory are WRONG because they contradict Church teaching. How many times in this thread do we have to tell you that.

 

[thistle]

I understand that - in terms of TRADITIONAL teaching. Modern teaching claims that Hell is not a place but a state. There is no torture or suffering in Hell. If so, there is no need for Purgatory. This is a theological discussion:

If you claim Hell is “not real” - ie is a state of being (separation from God) rather a place of torment, Purgatory is inconsistent and should be dropped.
If you want to maintain the tradition view of Hell (devils, demons, pitchforks, fire, pain, suffering) - Purgatory makes theological sense.

There is no modern teaching. strong textThe Church teaching remains unchanged. It is completely irrelevant what “modern” individuals think about it.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Do you believe there is Satan and his minions? Or is that all fallacy as well?

 

[thistle]

ust do a google on it. One of the strongest criticisms levied by atheists on the Church is that a loving God would not torture his children for eternity, no matter how evil their sins. A common response from MANY apologists is that Hell is not a real place of torment but a state of existence after death separated from God. But there are no devils, no fire, no pain, etc.

I agree this is not the official Church teaching, but in my experience, it has become very common - if not mainstream.

If you claim this view is false and there is a real Hell full of suffering souls for eternity - then I concede - Purgatory has theological value.

But if you claim Hell is a state not a place, then there is no theological value for Purgatory. It should be dropped. Theology must be consistent. But again, my viewpoint only applies to ‘new age’ (my term) Catholics that deny Hell is a real place.

This is the last time I will say this and I will drop out because continuing is a waste of my time.

The Church teaching on Hell and Purgatory remains UNCHANGED and it will NEVER CHANGE.
It is irrelevant who criticises the teaching.
The ONLY thing that matters is the Church teaching.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Amen!,

 

[Poet]

Just do a google on it. One of the strongest criticisms levied by atheists on the Church is that a loving God would not torture his children for eternity, no matter how evil their sins. A common response from MANY apologists is that Hell is not a real place of torment but a state of existence after death separated from God. But there are no devils, no fire, no pain, etc.

But this is exactly what I meant by: but what if there ARE only two choices–Heaven or Hell? And God is giving us EVERY opportunity to be with Him in Heaven and some people will still spit in His face and reject Him? I had a friend tell me very directly that he would choose Hell over a God who disagree with him (my friend) about homosexuality.

Look at it this way: a narrow road leading to a beautiful and safe city, surrounded by a wasteland full of monstrous creatures who do terrible things to anyone stuck out there. The king is saying, ‘Come in, come in!’ and there are some who look at him and say, “I don’t like your beliefs, rules, ways. I’d rather stay out here than be in there if you think like that.” And so they’re caught outside with these creatures and suffer because of it.

Is this the king ‘torturing them’ if they themselves CHOSE to turn away?

I see purgatory as simply the ‘mud room’ to get cleaned up before going fully into the city. I don’t see how it’s incompatible with hell at all and I don’t think it’s a matter of God ‘punishing’ by deliberately inflicting pain. It may simply be that it IS painful to be separated from God. Or think of it like the treatments for a burn victim. Nobody is ‘punishing’ them, the treatment simply IS painful.

 

[Vico]

But if you claim Hell is a state not a place, then there is no theological value for Purgatory.

All beings in purgation are non-corporeal justified spiritual beings. Pugation is the removal of unhealthy attachment to creatures. Note that at the council of Florence, the Greeks were not required to abandon the opinion that the fire of purgatory is not a physical reality.

 

[Poet]

People here seem to be getting upset about what is a theological question. I have said from the beginning that the traditional (or current, if you insist) view of Hell and Purgatory are consistent.

I’m not upset at all. I just don’t understand why you think that if Hell is a ‘state’ then there’s no need for purgatory.

Yes, God is all powerful. WE could therefore also ask why doesn’t He just snap his fingers and make us all perfect right now. The questions we could ask are endless. And some of those questions I feel I understand the answers after years of studying and some I don’t. And some people won’t agree with what I think are the answers and some will. I see nothing contrived about the idea of a place where we are finally made pure enough for God’s presence and some will.

 

[Poet]

Conversely, the idea that YOU decide by your sins not to be with God is much more acceptable

This is exactly how I see it.

And as I said, I’ve had one friend–in fact he 'd just been arguing exactly this, that a loving God wouldn’t send people to hell, when he made the statement–said directly, “I would choose Hell rather than be with a God who…” [has a view contrary to the way my friend’s opinion.]

I pointed out to him that he’d just stated outright he’d choose hell over God (unless God conforms to his beliefs) and it DID make him do a bit of a double take to realize he’d just proved my point.

 

[Poet]

Yes, I believe I’m agreeing wit h you or rather, in my world view that YOU are in agreement with ME.

Yes, I think we all ultimately make our own choices.

One thing I learned in my years of studying faith and God is that we tend to see God as being like our earthly fathers. I spent years feeling that God was always playing ‘gotcha’ with me, that I was never going to get a straight answer about exactly what I really needed to do and then when I thought I’d done everything right, at the moment of death, some legalistic loophole trap would be sprung on me, telling me I’d failed (again.)

I came to realize one day that God is a loving father who WANTS us in Heaven with Him. He is a God of love and mercy who knows what the alternative is. But some people will still choose the alternative, rather than bend their pride or will to accept God’s ways. Exactly as my friend told me he would. God needed to bend to his will or he would deliberately choose hell.

This is exactly what Lucifer did.

And btw, I believe that ‘God’s ways’ or ‘God’s rules’ are not there for him to wield control, but because He made us and knows what will bring us happiness and peace and the ability to live together in love.