Purgatory and the Scriptures

[Cattitude]

I have been asked by a non-Catholic how these Scripture passages “work with” the doctrine of Purgatory and I need some help with the answer:

**Hebrews 8:12 **

For I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sins no more.”

**Hebrews10:17-18 **

17 he also says: “Their sins and their evildoing I will remember no more.”

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer offering for sin.

**Isaiah 43:25 **

It is I, I, who wipe out, for my own sake, your offenses; your sins I remember no more.

Romans 6:1

What then shall we say? Shall we persist in sin that grace may abound? Of course not!

**1John 3:5-9 **

5 You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
6 No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him.
7 Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8 Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[DJK100]

How do any of these quotes deny purgatory? Reread them carefully.

 

[Nate13]

The biggest point these passages make is that nothing that is not perfect is capable of entering Heaven (Rev. 21:27). The only way they can claim that there is no Purgatory is by claiming that we are made perfect in God’s eyes when we are baptized and accept Jesus as our personal Lord and savior. More and more protestants are jumping off that bandwagon and I believe they will soon realize that a purgatory of sorts must exist. I think the biggest problem they have is they think Purgatory means a length of time where we are in between Earth and Heaven. The thing is that once we die we are outside of time. Purgatory is best explained by 1 Cor 3:15.

“If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only through fire.”

The man goes through fire, but is saved so that can’t be referring to the fire of hell. Rather its referring to the fire of God’s love, which cleanses us so that our soul is in a state of perfection worthy of Heaven. The point being that even though we are forgiven for our sins, we must pay the price for them including venial sins and mortal sins which we have been absolved of.

Most of the verses revolve around this idea that God will chose to remember our sins no more. The problem is these sins leave scars on us. The sin is not separated from us because the inclination that caused us to sin is still there. So while the sin itself is forgotten and forgiven, the damage we have done to ourselves by sinning still remains. This damage must be fixed if we are to enter Heaven. If I’m still attracted to a sin of some kind, then I’m holding something back from God.

Another way of thinking about is like this. We are all currently fighting a fierce battle here on Earth. We don’t always make the best decisions, but if we keep our eyes on the prize and seek forgiveness when we fail we will make it out of the battle alive. Now God will forget about all our failings during the battle, but the fact is when we get out of the battle most of us will be beat up and bloody with wounds from the battle. These wounds need to be healed before we can get into Heaven, and this occurs in Purgatory.

 

[Heuchler]

If we read the last of these, it would mean that true christians never sin again meaning that the majority of the world are condemned to Hell and not really christians. None of these really deny that sins will be forgiven in the next life (something Christ indicated in speaking with his apostles which points to purgatory). But good luck in dealing with your non-catholic friend and God bless

 

[MarcoPolo]

I have been asked by a non-Catholic how these Scripture passages “work with” the doctrine of Purgatory and I need some help with the answer:

**Hebrews 8:12 **

For I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sins no more.”

Take this verse for instance. Now Purgatory is the purification from the stains of sins already forgiven. So all these passages saying God forgives forever or remembers the sin no more fit right in. Purgatory is not about the eternal forgiveness of a sin, but about sanctification. That’s why if we go further in Hebrews, we see that people who are already God’s “sons” are in need of punishment for the purpose of perfecting their “holiness.” (Heb. 12:7-10)

 

[TimothyH]

Take this verse for instance. Now Purgatory is the purification from the stains of sins already forgiven. So all these passages saying God forgives forever or remembers the sin no more fit right in. Purgatory is not about the eternal forgiveness of a sin, but about sanctification. That’s why if we go further in Hebrews, we see that people who are already God’s “sons” are in need of punishment for the purpose of perfecting their “holiness.” (Heb. 12:7-10)

And to your most excellent point, don’t forget a few verses later…

No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, (Hebrews 12:22-23)

One can be justified, but not yet perfected.

-Tim-

 

[MarcoPolo]

And to your most excellent point, don’t forget a few verses later…

No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, (Hebrews 12:22-23)

One can be justified, but not yet perfected.

-Tim-

Yeah, Hebrews 12 is totally purgatorial.

 

[Thee_awfullest]

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Who is the blessed man?

 

[Nate13]

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Who is the blessed man?

Lets say your on a baseball team. The last game you played in you missed 3 ground balls. At your next practice your coach has you fielding ground balls as practice. Is he punishing you for missing the ground balls during the game or is he helping you become a better baseball player so next game you don’t miss any? Nothing that is not perfect can enter Heaven. This implies that we must be made perfect before we can enter. I have to practice (with Gods’ help) fielding ground balls until I’m perfect, not as punishment for missing the ground balls before, but so I can be fully embraced by God’s love.

 

[TimothyH]

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Who is the blessed man?

You can’t just throw verses at Catholics like that. We don’t get it when you do that. Its not the way we read the Bible, one verse at a time. We just don’t read scripture like that. We look at the whole Bible as a story, written in ancient times, by and for people who lived in a very different political, social and religious climate. To us, throwning one verse at us is like handing us one sentance out of a Harry Potter novel and expecting us to undersand the whole series. After 2000 years of living withing the context of the Church, our brains are not wired that way.

We understand that in his letter to the Romans, Paul was writing to Jews in Rome who had converted to Christianity. These were insisting to the Gentile Christians that in order to be saved, one had to observe the mosaic law - works of the law - and as such, he was teaching about faith leading to salvation as opposed to works of the mosaic law. He was explaining to an audience of Jews, how the mosaic law did not lead to salvation, but rather faith in God - the same kind of faith which Abraham had - the fullness of faith (faithfullness) which led him to obedience. Paul was making a point about the Mosaic law - circumcision, diet, ritual cleansing, and how this wasn’t what got one into heaven.

Catholics look at the many passages which clearly state that if you have faith in God you will be saved and the many passages, such as the one you quote, which says that God does not remember our sins and we don’t stop there. We notice that throughout the Bible there are many other passages which clearly state that unless you do God’s will, you won’t get into heaven, that if you don’t obey God you will be thrown into the fires of Hell, and that you have to be perfect to enter heaven. On the one hand is says that if you have faith, you will be saved. On the other hand it says that if you don’t obey, you will not get into heaven. We look at it all. We then try to reconcile all of these together and figure out how both can be true. We don’t take one verse arpart from the other. It’s not the way Catholics do things.

We never take one verse at a time. It’s not the Catholic way to take one verse at a time. We don’t think that way. We don’t operate that way. That’s why we look at you funny, shake our heads, and walk away when you do that, and I know that frustrates you. We don’t get when it is handed to us one verse at a time.

We are like… “That’s it? Just one verse? Where is the rest of the story? Isn’t there more that comes with that?”\

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Yeah, Hebrews 12 is totally purgatorial.

Purgatorial? Is that a real word?

I once posted that I “swang” the thurible full of incense.

-Tim-

 

[ProVobis]

I once posted that I “swang” the thurible full of incense.

Swang is a word. But a thurible “full” of incense probably “drowns” the charcoal.

 

[PJM]

=Cattitude;8501666]I have been asked by a non-Catholic how these Scripture passages “work with” the doctrine of Purgatory and I need some help with the answer:

**Hebrews 8:12 **

"For I will forgive their evildoing and remember their sins no more.”

As the message is "the same in each; I’ll just reply to the first one. BUT first ask your friend how there sins are forgiven: Jesus following OT practice makes use of Priest as THE way [singular] to have sins fogiven.

Jn. 20: 21-23 "Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. **If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” **

As can be seen by what I just shared there is more to the story than meets the eye.

The first point is that sins don’t just disapear. They MUST be confessed and then they are forgiven.And once confession with true sorrow and contritition are present; the sins ARE forgiven and forgotten.

However ALL sin; both venial and Mortal [1st. Jn. 5: 16-17] have a public aspect to them. Sin always hurts others and therefore leave a required “pay-back”. Lets look at a few examples: Lies hurt the one lying and the one being lied about. So to theft, infidelity, gossip, missing Mass, swearing and so on. Each effects others and in a manner of speaking the entire church is weakened by our sins.

God who is ALL fair and ALL Just requires a payback. Restitution. But sometimes its not possible to retuen was taken; or take back the lie or the gossip. So the Church as the holder of the keys to heaven; provides way to make amends by prayer, charitable acts, and Indulgences.

But very often because we can’t actually track what we “owe” and few seem to be aware of or advantage Indulgences; there remains even after a Good Confession a debt that God requires repaid in full as one MUST BE perfect as is God Himself to enter into heaven.

Prugatory is a sort of “soul-wash” it is a GIFT from God in order that more souls MAY attaqin heaven, which is too Gods desire, The problem is God alone determines how much is due and how long one must remain in purgatory before God deems that soul not perfected.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

1 Cor. 3: 13-14 “each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, [Purgatory] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

And this understanding existed even in the OT: [God id Just and fair so it HAD too.]

**2 Mac. 12: 39 –45 **“On the next day, as by that time it had become necessary, Judas and his men went to take up the bodies of the fallen and to bring them back to lie with their kinsmen in the sepulchres of their fathers. Then under the tunic of every one of the dead they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. And it became clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden; and they turned to prayer, beseeching that the sin which had been committed might be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection. **For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” **

So Purgatory is Biblical and logical because God has to be fair and just and will allow ONLY perfect souls into heaven.

It MUST be noted that ANYONE who dies with unconfessed, unforgiven MORTAL sin goes to hell, because Mortal sins BREACH our relationship with God. This is another reason why the Catholic Sacrament of KNOWN forgiveness is essential for salvation.

God Bless, hope this helps you out. If you need more please let me know.
Pat

 

[Thee_awfullest]

This implies that we must be made perfect before we can enter. I have to practice (with Gods’ help) fielding ground balls until I’m perfect, not as punishment for missing the ground balls before, but so I can be fully embraced by God’s love.

So no one is the blessed man in Romans 4:8?

 

[Church_Militant]

I did a little research on Purgatory and it made the following article. Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

 

[Thee_awfullest]

You can’t just throw verses at Catholics like that. We don’t get it when you do that. Its not the way we read the Bible, one verse at a time. We just don’t read scripture like that. We look at the whole Bible as a story, written in ancient times, by and for people who lived in a very different political, social and religious climate. To us, throwning one verse at us is like handing us one sentance out of a Harry Potter novel and expecting us to undersand the whole series. After 2000 years of living withing the context of the Church, our brains are not wired that way.

We understand that in his letter to the Romans, Paul was writing to Jews in Rome who had converted to Christianity. These were insisting to the Gentile Christians that in order to be saved, one had to observe the mosaic law - works of the law - and as such, he was teaching about faith leading to salvation as opposed to works of the mosaic law. He was explaining to an audience of Jews, how the mosaic law did not lead to salvation, but rather faith in God - the same kind of faith which Abraham had - the fullness of faith (faithfullness) which led him to obedience. Paul was making a point about the Mosaic law - circumcision, diet, ritual cleansing, and how this wasn’t what got one into heaven.

Catholics look at the many passages which clearly state that if you have faith in God you will be saved and the many passages, such as the one you quote, which says that God does not remember our sins and we don’t stop there. We notice that throughout the Bible there are many other passages which clearly state that unless you do God’s will, you won’t get into heaven, that if you don’t obey God you will be thrown into the fires of Hell, and that you have to be perfect to enter heaven. On the one hand is says that if you have faith, you will be saved. On the other hand it says that if you don’t obey, you will not get into heaven. We look at it all. We then try to reconcile all of these together and figure out how both can be true. We don’t take one verse arpart from the other. It’s not the way Catholics do things.

We never take one verse at a time. It’s not the Catholic way to take one verse at a time. We don’t think that way. We don’t operate that way. That’s why we look at you funny, shake our heads, and walk away when you do that, and I know that frustrates you. We don’t get when it is handed to us one verse at a time.

We are like… “That’s it? Just one verse? Where is the rest of the story? Isn’t there more that comes with that?”\

-Tim-

If i am taking this out of context feel free to right the ship…

Long story short you don’t believe anyone can be the blessed man whose sins the Lord will not count against them?

 

[Nate13]

So no one is the blessed man in Romans 4:8?

That is not what I’m saying at all, and I think you know that. Going to Purgatory implies going to Heaven. Purgatory is a blessing. My point was that the fact that God chooses not to remember a righteous mans sins, does not mean there is no Purgatory. Also, please note that you are not really quoting Romans. That verse in Romans is originally from Ps 32:1-2. I suggest reading that psalm to get a better idea of the context of that verse.

 

[Cattitude]

Thanks to everyone who replied. You have given me a lot to work with. Can anyone address the passage from 1 John? The person seems to be of the opinion that once you have “accepted Jesus into your heart” you are no longer tempted by sin, and the attitude is almost that you really no longer sin.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Thanks to everyone who replied. You have given me a lot to work with. Can anyone address the passage from 1 John? The person seems to be of the opinion that once you have “accepted Jesus into your heart” you are no longer tempted by sin, and the attitude is almost that you really no longer sin.

“Accepting Jesus” does not mean that. Examples:*Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Ecclesiastes 7:20 yet there is no man on earth so just as to do good and never sin…

Proverbs 24:16 for a righteous man falls seven times, and rises again

 

[christosdavid]

So no one is the blessed man in Romans 4:8?

The blessed man is David, as a second witness to Abraham, that God justifies the sinner.

I didnt realise that this was in dispute with sanctification, which occurs in the latter chapters of Romans, particularly 12:1 onwards.