Purgatory and the thief on the cross?

[crazzeto]

God sets the rules for US. They are NOT rules for Him. If He chooses to do something outside the rules He sets for us, He is not violating the rules. They don’t apply to Him. The only thing that applies to God are the promises He has made. If we follow the rules He set for us, He must and will uphold His promises. But that does not mean that He can’t save someone outside the rules for us.

At the time of the crucifixion, the rule for baptism was not yet made. That came on the day of the ascension, The thief may have been a circumcised Jew so met all the requirements for ‘Abraham’s bosom’.

Addressing both points, do not forget God is both eternal in every sense of the word, and also immutable. One must consider this fully, God already knows the full plan, frankly he knows everything. His plan was in place long before the cross. The god described here is more a Mormon understanding, i.e. changing his mind and the rules. They are His rules, they bind us not him yes.

But he is ever faithful to his promise, he is unchanging and unmovable. Compare a God who makes “exceptions” to these traits, it doesn’t line up. Now God is also the perfect judge of heart, this is how we have normative water baptism, baptism of desire and baptism of blood. These are rules set forth by God by which he faithfully executes judgment, and one can go on. And His judgment is 100% true, faithful, just and merciful.

There’s no need for “exceptions” to the rule, because his rule is already perfect.

 

[Doxiemom]

Maybe this wil help…

What catholics call “Purgatory” is what is refered to in Scripture as the Judgement Seat of Christ.

You sins, they have been forgiven. But what is left to be judged are the good and the bad results of what you have done or have failed to do( this sound familiar, no?). Jesus will show you what you are and then show you what you could have been.

Everything must be purified , by being purged( hence purgatory), by fire. Your life is either burned up if hay, paper, straw, or purifed if diamonds, gold, silver is tossed into the fire. And let’s face it, I am willing to admit, I might be lucky to have a few tiny tiny nuggets of gold, but a lot will be smoke.

It has got to be a difficult bit of time to stand there and have everything exposed. All you intentions, all your lack of interest. And the joy to find out that something you did mattered to a someone and made a difference and you had no idea. Jesus will smile upon you for that one.

Benedict actually wrote about this and came as close ias I ever read to bridgeing the gap between traditional catholic purgatory and the scriptural reading as the Berma Seat of Christ (judgement ). he said it was not so much a place but a state of being under the LOVING eyes of Jesus.

Loving eyes. So not a punishment, but a process of purification. Not of you, but the experiences of your “self” that caused all the good and the bad of you.

This judgement is for those who will enter heaven. There is a whole other judgement for those in hell, that is the Great White Throne judgement.

The paradise referred to is the area beyond the gulf between it and hell. It was where Abraham was kept safely and the righous until the gates of heaven would be re-opened by Jesus. The clear reading says that the thief would be in paradise. Obviously his sin were forgven by the Blood of the Cross and by his faith and his repentence. His “confession” to his “priest”. He dies, goes into the bosom of Abraham and then Jesus leads him out of there to the gates of heaven.

Not so clear is when his judgement came. His 'purgatory" or as i explained above. But it had to be done, for" man is appointed once to die and then the judgement".

Do not confuse this Judgement with the afore emntioned great White Throne Judgement, resevrved for those in hell and for Satan and the fallen angles and the false prophet. Not with the Judgement of the nations which comes after the Battle of Armegeddon.

 

[R_C]

Did Jesus go to Heaven on Good Friday? Nope.

In fact, He descended to the realm of the dead. So I hope the good thief had not misunderstood the phrase to mean heaven…!

 

[po18guy]

In fact, He descended to the realm of the dead. So I hope the good thief had not misunderstood the phrase to mean heaven…!

Misunderstanding has only cropped up in the past 500 years or so. Saint Peter was rather clear, and the Church used his scripture in developing the Apostle’s creed. It’s a done deal.

 

[kunfuzdchic]

How does the doctrine of purgatory square with the thief on the cross making a confession of faith at the hour of his death and given entrance into paradise that very day?

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise Luke 23

Your question reminds me of my Grandma, who is an orthodox christian of the Coptic Church. She is illiterate and learned about the Bible by listening to homilies. (which she passed on to me) The way she told me the story was that it happened the very same day of the crucifixion and death of Our Lord.Because of his actions, the thief was in Heaven, before Abraham, Isaac, and the rest who were awaiting Jesus in purgatory.Love my granny!

 

[sousley]

At the time of the crucifixion, the rule for baptism was not yet made. That came on the day of the ascension, The thief may have been a circumcised Jew so met all the requirements for ‘Abraham’s bosom’.

I don’t agree with this. Jesus and baptism were recurring themes in the gospels so its entirely possible “rules” were traditionally articulated to the disciples prior to the His ascension. His instruction to baptize all nations prior to His ascension suggests that they had previous knowledge of specifics at least to some degree.

 

[bzkoss236]

I don’t agree with this. Jesus and baptism were recurring themes in the gospels so its entirely possible “rules” were traditionally articulated to the disciples prior to the His ascension. His instruction to baptize all nations prior to His ascension suggests that they had previous knowledge of specifics at least to some degree.

You forget that the gates of Heaven had not yet been opened. They wouldn’t be opened until Jesus ascended to Heaven with the souls from Abraham’s Bosom.

 

[pablope]

I don’t agree with this. Jesus and baptism were recurring themes in the gospels so its entirely possible “rules” were traditionally articulated to the disciples prior to the His ascension. His instruction to baptize all nations prior to His ascension suggests that they had previous knowledge of specifics at least to some degree.

I could not find the thread anymore…but someone posted an icon from the Orthodox…forgot which…which depicted the early belief where the Good Thief went…the icon shows the GT in the bosom of Abraham…which is what was believed by our early Christian brothers.

 

[crazzeto]

I could not find the thread anymore…but someone posted an icon from the Orthodox…forgot which…which depicted the early belief where the Good Thief went…the icon shows the GT in the bosom of Abraham…which is what was believed by our early Christian brothers.

Christ went to the boosom of Abraham and removed all souls from there taking them to paradise. This is an important theological point, the ‘decent into hell’ (or hades). It states that when Christ died he descended to the very depths, to save everyone from the bottom up.

There is some question whether the just dead (as you state, boosom of Abraham) were the only ones taken to heaven. And that the unjust dead were sent to hell. I can’t argue one way or the other here, but at the very least we accept that the just dead were brought to heaven.

 

[Evan]

I don’t agree with this. Jesus and baptism were recurring themes in the gospels so its entirely possible “rules” were traditionally articulated to the disciples prior to the His ascension. His instruction to baptize all nations prior to His ascension suggests that they had previous knowledge of specifics at least to some degree.

It was at the ascension he said “Baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit”. Prior to that, there may have been a baptism of repentance. It may have been at pentecost that the first Christians were baptized.

Of course the apostles and the good thief may have all been admitted into the Church under the Mosaic Law of circumcision. When Jesus descended to the dead, NONE of those had received christian baptism.

 

[zz912]

I don’t agree with this. Jesus and baptism were recurring themes in the gospels so its entirely possible “rules” were traditionally articulated to the disciples prior to the His ascension. His instruction to baptize all nations prior to His ascension suggests that they had previous knowledge of specifics at least to some degree.

I’d say they had a pretty good idea what He meant about baptizing.

John 3:22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

God sets the rules for US. They are NOT rules for Him. If He chooses to do something outside the rules He sets for us, He is not violating the rules. They don’t apply to Him. The only thing that applies to God are the promises He has made. If we follow the rules He set for us, He must and will uphold His promises. But that does not mean that He can’t save someone outside the rules for us.

This is the point that I was trying to make.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

Addressing both points, do not forget God is both eternal in every sense of the word, and also immutable. One must consider this fully, God already knows the full plan, frankly he knows everything. His plan was in place long before the cross. The god described here is more a Mormon understanding, i.e. changing his mind and the rules. They are His rules, they bind us not him yes.

But he is ever faithful to his promise, he is unchanging and unmovable. Compare a God who makes “exceptions” to these traits, it doesn’t line up. Now God is also the perfect judge of heart, this is how we have normative water baptism, baptism of desire and baptism of blood. These are rules set forth by God by which he faithfully executes judgment, and one can go on. And His judgment is 100% true, faithful, just and merciful.

There’s no need for “exceptions” to the rule, because his rule is already perfect.

But He is not bound by the rules that He created for mankind. Yes He has known the plan from the beginning and yes, His plan will be carried out, however, perhaps saving the thief outside of the normal process was part of His plan from the beginning.

 

[CatholicGeek1]

I’d say they had a pretty good idea what He meant about baptizing.

John 3:22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing.

This was the baptism or repentance. It was not the baptism of salvation. Two things one name.

 

[crazzeto]

But He is not bound by the rules that He created for mankind. Yes He has known the plan from the beginning and yes, His plan will be carried out, however, perhaps saving the thief outside of the normal process was part of His plan from the beginning.

One has to keep in balance God’s sovereignty and God’s fidelity. The fact that God is sovergn doesn’t mean he is going to be faithless. By changing his mind by ‘making exceptions’ God effectivly becomes faithless. Remember, God swears by his own self his covenant. His covenantal promise will not be broken for any reason what so ever.

 

[Ignatius]

How does the doctrine of purgatory square with the thief on the cross And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise Luke 23

Jesus probably figured that the Good Thief dying by hanging on a cross for three hours next to him was purgatory enough.

 

[zz912]

This was the baptism or repentance. It was not the baptism of salvation. Two things one name.

Yep, I know. But the point was that in the days and weeks they spent baptizing, Christ was instructing them on baptism, and probably instructing them on what baptism in the New Covenant would look like.

 

[Philthy]

How does the doctrine of purgatory square with the thief on the cross making a confession of faith at the hour of his death and given entrance into paradise that very day?

I think it squares perfectly with it, but what it squares particularly well with is the Catholic theology on Baptism. In Baptism we are forgiven of ALL sin - both original and actual - and are prepared to enter** fully **into the Kingdom of God - immediately!

From the Catechism, bolding mine:

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

The thief on the cross did several things:
He confessed his sin (cf 1John1:9)
He defended Christ (charity)
He heard Christ’s words and believed (John 5:24)
He united his suffering with Christ’s
He received a Baptism of desire.

Again, from the Catechism:

1259 For *catechumens *who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise Luke 23

Again, perfect!

Do you have a question about why you think it doesn’t square perfectly with the doctrine? Why not ask it and we can get right to your question.

Blessings!

 

[PRmerger]

Turn the question around. Did Jesus go to Heaven on Good Friday? Nope. In fact, Jesus didn’t go back to Heaven until the Ascension, which was 40 days after Easter.

So either “paradise” means something other than Heaven, or the punctuation is off.

 

[Almost_convert]

Again, perfect!

Do you have a question about why you think it doesn’t square perfectly with the doctrine? Why not ask it and we can get right to your question.

Blessings!

Philthy,

I asked how does it square, I never said I believed I didn’t - if you read some of my other posts in this thread you would see that I am converting to Catholicism from Protestantism because I believe it to be true. I am trying to make sense of doctrines that are foreign to me but that I believe to be true (e.g. Purgatory). My original post was not a challenge, but it appears you have reframed it to make it seem to be one. Not my intent.