Purgatory is Biblical

[WarriorofJesus]

1 Corinthians 3:15 does not say we are purified by fire, but AS though by fire, its a simile. In purgatory we will have no physical bodies, it will be our souls being cleansed of sin, it speaks of the person “suffering loss” and the word in Greek connotates paying a fine of some sort, literally meaning “he-shall-be-being-fined”

The verse about blaspheme against the Spirit was used because Jesus said “or in the age to come”, suggesting some sins are forgivable in the age to come, as both Catholics and Jews believe

Hell is eternal those people are lost no matter what.

False. Using the words, “in the age to come” changes completely the meaning of the words. There is diference between how it is originally, “in the world to come” compared to the way you said it which was, " in the age to come". The way you state it in the begenning relates to a comming of age or a time period. Jesus was not talking about a time period but was clearly talking about another world or dimension. In conclusion, Jesus was talking about two diferent worlds. Those worlds are our physical world and the spiritual world. Pugatory is the only other world where sins can be forgiven.

 

[Sir_Knight]

We all sin, it is true. But if we sin and repent God forgives us. Do you deny that He forgives us?

As I said before, only those that do not want to be forgiven are not forgiven. If you want and try to get forgiveness, God will grant it to you.

You are confusing the forgiveness of sin with the punishment due to sin. I refer you to 2 Sam. 12:14 where we see that even though the sin is forgiven, there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin). If we seek God’s forgiveness with a sincere heart, we will be forgiven but Hebrews 10:26-27 tells us that WE will have to atone for those sins because Christ’s sacrifice on the cross no longer covers the sins which we commit AFTER we come to the faith.

How exactly did He receive Grace from God? He was not receiving any form of grace. He was eternally condemned.

He was expressing concern for his brother. He had compassion for them. Compassion is a grace from God. Those in hell are forever cut off from God’s graces and do not have compassion. Since he did have compassion, he was receiving God’s grace and therefore could not have been in hell.

 

[po18guy]

Purgatory does not have to be biblical to be believable. The bible is incomplete and tells us so in several places (Luke 3:18, John 20:30, John 21:25, Acts 2:40, 1 Corinthians 11:34 and others). So, the fulness of revelation must be outside of the bible. Jesus taught for three years. There are not much more than a month’s worth of days in NT scripture. What about everything else that Jesus did and said, as John wrote? When you consider the beliefs and writings of the early Church fathers, the martyrs, the Saints and the Doctors of the Church, as well as the countless converts who have embraced the teaching, clearly it is upon us to be open to all of Jesus’ teaching, not just that which was written down.

Since nothing impure will enter the Lord’s Kingdom (Revelation 21:27), and since we all fail at our mission of purity, even though God call s us to purity, (Romans 5:12, 1 Thessalonians 4:7) I pray that there is a place of purification for us! How else are we to interpret “as though one escaping through fire”? Compare the wording of 1 Corinthians 12:13-15 with that of Numbers 31:22-23. Even those who do escape through fire feel the heat and are burned by it, though their life is spared.

 

[HisWill777]

I came from the same boat (former ELCA). The passage in Matthew is still tricky for me to understand, but I think I kind of see it now. I remember at first, I had thought the passage in Matthew meant either a literal prison, or Jesus talking about what to do during the persecutions. The 1 Corinthians passage is one of those passages that was compelling to me, too.

Thanks for sharing. I am not convinced there isn’t a Purgatory, there may very well be. It’s just that I’ve read most of these posts and each Bible passage that is submitted as “proof” is very thin at best. Many times in the Bible Heaven and Hell are described quite vividly, wouldn’t Purgatory be given clear distinction as well? I realize everything isn’t in Scripture, it is revealed to the Church, etc., I’m just a little confused as to why more wouldn’t be stated in the Bible regarding Purgatory. Talk of “escaping the fire” could be just making us realize that we, on our own are basically screwed, but through faith in Jesus, we escape. As I stated earlier, definitely something I will ponder further, maybe even talk to a local Catholic priest about it. Thanks again.

 

[SHW]

That would be incorrect. I refer you to Hebrews 10:26-27 …

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

… if we sin after coming to the faith, Christ’s sacrifice no longer covers it and we have to atone for those sins ourselves via fire – in purgatory. I also refer you to Luke 16:19-31 – in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. There is no suffering in heaven nor compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man if he isn’t in hell or in heaven? He is in purgatory!

This is speaking of mortal sin. If you are devoured, you are destroyed. Nothing left.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

The rich man is in hell. He is not feeling compassion for his brothers. He encouraged/condoned his brothers in their sinfulness. He has to pay for that. He is concerned only about himself. If his brothers repent, then his guilt lessens and he suffers less in hell.

Luke 26:16
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.

No one gets across this great gulf.

Luke 18:24
And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!

1 Timothy 6:9
But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.

Luke 18:25
For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 19:23
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[po18guy]

By the way, the Bible does not support purgatory. I will try to explain myself

Would it be correct to say that you are a “bible Christian”? Well, here is a bible Christian, Dr. James Manning, PhD, who strongly disagrees with you - all based on the bible.

atlah.org/about/FocusOnPurgatory.html

 

[SHW]

2 Tim. 1:16-18
This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day—and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me at Ephesus.

Onesiphorus died. Mercy is only for those in Purgatory; not hell.

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Punishments in purgatory. Many stripes or few stripes. He is with the Master so he is not in hell.

Heb. 12:23
to the general assembly (on earth) and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, (purgatory)

Just men made perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are sometimes made perfect after their deaths. Those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

Philippians 2:9-10
Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth, and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father.

Here Paul mention three places where Jesus is worshiped.

In heaven (those saints in heaven), on earth (us), and under the earth (purgatory). The damned in hell do not worship God

My favorite:

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
**
Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison.** These are the people who repented while they were drowning while Noah was safe on the ark. They had already been there for 2000 earth years before Jesus went to preach to them sometime between His death on Friday and His resurrection on Sunday. This prison is purgatory. They had no time to do works worthy of repentance Matthew 3:8; hence their long stay.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The rich man is in hell. He is not feeling compassion for his brothers.

Yes he is. He does not want them to end up in the same place as himself. Even though it will not change his faith, he wants to spare them that same faith. That is compassion and is contrary to how those in hell behave who rejoice at seeing others fall into hell even though it may increase their own suffering.

He encouraged/condoned his brothers in their sinfulness. He has to pay for that. He is concerned only about himself. If his brothers repent, then his guilt lessens and he suffers less in hell.

Where does it say that he encouraged/condoned their sinfulness? I must have missed that verse. If you’re going to read things into it that are not there, then maybe it was THEY who encouraged him into this sin and he wanted them to repent – again, showing compassion toward others … which is a grace from God and those in hell receive no graces from God – thus, proving that he can not be in hell.

Luke 26:16
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.

No one gets across this great gulf.

Luke 18:24
And when Jesus saw that he became very sorrowful, He said, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!

1 Timothy 6:9
But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.

Luke 18:25
For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 19:23
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

You quoted Luke 18:24 and Luke 18:25, let’s read a little further and see what **Luke 18:26-27 **have to say …

25For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26And they that heard it, said: Who then can be saved? 27He said to them: The things that are impossible with men, ARE possible with God.

… With God, all things are possible INCLUDING rich people entering heaven.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

You’ve made a mistake: Matthew 5:32 doesn’t say: “anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come” but it says: “but I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery”. You’ve got the wrong passage.

By the way, the Bible does not support purgatory. I will try to explain myself:

In the Old Testament, God gave the order that everything they have to be cleaned through fire. Whatever could not be cleaned through fire, was cleaned with water. For example if you had an object of wood, you could not clean it trough fire, but you had to wash it.

If we were able to be cleaned through fire, God wouldn’t have sacrificed His only Son for us, but He would have thrown us in Hell, and after a certain amount of time, we would enter Heaven. But because we can’t be cleaned through fire, we are cleaned with water… and blood: Jesus’ Blood. Since fire cannot clean us, how can you say that at the end we will be thrown in fire to be cleaned of remaining sins? If you ask for forgiveness, God will forgive you every sin. If you died before confessing, I’m sure that God is merciful enough to forgive you.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

We all sin, it is true. But if we sin and repent God forgives us. Do you deny that He forgives us?

As I said before, only those that do not want to be forgiven are not forgiven. If you want and try to get forgiveness, God will grant it to you.

How exactly did He receive Grace from God? He was not receiving any form of grace. He was eternally condemned.

It is not just a case of forgiveness. If the kid next door breaks my window, I may well forgive him. But I still expect him to make some reparation and fix it up. I also expect him to change the behaviour that caused the breakage in the first place.

It’s about CLEANSING. My father had a foul temper. I have quite good reason to believe he’s in hell. But just suppose he’d made a sincere death bed confession of faith in Christ. Now I believe God would have honoured that confession and he’d have been “saved”.

But I do not beleive he’d have gone straight into heaven. He’d have had a bit of cleaning up to do. All his life he’d indulged himself in petty tantrums to his family’s distress, and had not made an ounce of effort to do anything about it. There’s no way in heaven he’d have gone through the pearly gates and taken that temper with him. Nor do I believe God would have simply reached down and removed it from him completely. He’d have had some work to do - that which he should have done now he then would have had to do later.

If you don’t believe that, then why do you believe the Protestant ethic of emphasising “personal holiness”? What’s the point if God’s simply going to make it easy for the vilest sinner at their death based on nothing more that a death bed confession at the end of a wasted life?

It’s a logical necessity.

The sole contra-example is the thief on the cross. But he was a special case - he was literally crucified with Christ, and had given witness to Christ on his own cross in front of a mocking crowd.

I believe in Purgatory, and I think a lot of Protestants are going to get a shock when they die. More than a few might find themselves making up for things they hadn’t even thought about. The late Oral Roberts comes to mind. He lied on a number of occasions eg. when he claimed God had told him that if he didn’t raise 8 million dollars, God would "call him home’. That was an outright lie. And as far as I know he never repented.

He’d have had a bit of cleaning up to do to say the least.

 

[Highwayhound]

A very clear Biblical example of someone being forgiven, but still having to suffer punishment for sin is David. God forgave his sin, but still required him to suffer the punishment of the loss of his son.

Also, as I have read this post I have noticed the absence of 2 Maccabees. In this book of the Bible there is a direct reference to praying for the dead. (Right now all the Catholics are cheering “It’s in our Bible” :clapping:and all the Protestants are booing:bigyikes:, Amen) What purpose if there to “pray for the dead” if there is no Purgatory?

So if you are interested in reading the relevant verse is near the end of the 12th chapter of 2nd Maccabees. If you have a hardened heart and refuse to read, amen.

 

[Sir_Knight]

A very clear Biblical example of someone being forgiven, but still having to suffer punishment for sin is David. God forgave his sin, but still required him to suffer the punishment of the loss of his son.

I pointed that out earlier and so far there have been no comments from the nay-sayers, but still around, I’m sure they’ll have something to say and we’ll need a reply for them

 

[Cristian_B]

You are confusing the forgiveness of sin with the punishment due to sin. I refer you to 2 Sam. 12:14 where we see that even though the sin is forgiven, there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin). If we seek God’s forgiveness with a sincere heart, we will be forgiven but Hebrews 10:26-27 tells us that WE will have to atone for those sins because Christ’s sacrifice on the cross no longer covers the sins which we commit AFTER we come to the faith.

The punishment of sin is death. God forgives the capital punishment, the death, but there are other smaller “punishments” or “reminders” because God gives the “reminder” to us to prevent us from sinning. David probably never sinned like that again because said in his heart: I will not sin again, because if I sin, God will take my other son as well. It is a reminder of not to sin in this life. He does not punish you in the other life. But He gives you some small punishments in this life so we may not sin again. It says nothing about a purgatory.

He was expressing concern for his brother. He had compassion for them. Compassion is a grace from God. Those in hell are forever cut off from God’s graces and do not have compassion. Since he did have compassion, he was receiving God’s grace and therefore could not have been in hell.

Men can still feel compassion even if they are not with God. They can feel love as well. But there is a difference: God calls us to love everybody and to have compassion for everybody. The rich man felt compassion for his family and friends, but he didn’t for Lazarus. That is why he was in Hell. Besides, Luke 16:23: “In hell…”. So the parable already says that the rich man was in Hell.

God commands us to love everybody, to have compassion for everybody, etc. and not just for a few people.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The punishment of sin is death. God forgives the capital punishment, the death, but there are other smaller “punishments” or “reminders” because God gives the “reminder” to us to prevent us from sinning. David probably never sinned like that again because said in his heart: I will not sin again, because if I sin, God will take my other son as well. It is a reminder of not to sin in this life. He does not punish you in the other life. But He gives you some small punishments in this life so we may not sin again. It says nothing about a purgatory.

Sin must be atoned for. Jesus atoned for all of our sins prior to us coming to the faith. The sins which we commit afterwards need to be atone for by US. If we fail to make full atonement for them in this life, it will be required of us in the afterlife. There is no atonement needed in heaven and those in hell are forever lost. Therefore, there is some other place besides heaven and hell where this atonement happens – PURGATORY.

Men can still feel compassion even if they are not with God. They can feel love as well. But there is a difference: God calls us to love everybody and to have compassion for everybody. The rich man felt compassion for his family and friends, but he didn’t for Lazarus. That is why he was in Hell. Besides, Luke 16:23: “In hell…”. So the parable already says that the rich man was in Hell.

God commands us to love everybody, to have compassion for everybody, etc. and not just for a few people.

Even though we may not be with God, God continues to be with us. He draws us to Him until our dying breathe because scripture has it that He desires all to be saved. Only those in hell are completely cut off from God. They no longer receive any graces from God. Since the Rich Man had compassion for his brothers and compassion is a grace from God, we know that he was not completely cut off from God and therefore he could not have been in hell.

And with regard to the bible saying that he was in hell, that is an issue with the translation. The correct translation is that he was in the realm of the dead. Recall that the bible also says that Jesus descended into hell and we know that is not possible because hell is the absence of God. If Jesus would have entered hell, it would have ceased to be hell.

 

[SHW]

Yes he is. He does not want them to end up in the same place as himself. Even though it will not change his faith, he wants to spare them that same faith. That is compassion and is contrary to how those in hell behave who rejoice at seeing others fall into hell even though it may increase their own suffering.

Where does it say that he encouraged/condoned their sinfulness? I must have missed that verse. If you’re going to read things into it that are not there, then maybe it was THEY who encouraged him into this sin and he wanted them to repent – again, showing compassion toward others … which is a grace from God and those in hell receive no graces from God – thus, proving that he can not be in hell.

You quoted Luke 18:24 and Luke 18:25, let’s read a little further and see what **Luke 18:26-27 **have to say …

25For it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26And they that heard it, said: Who then can be saved? 27He said to them: The things that are impossible with men, ARE possible with God.

… With God, all things are possible INCLUDING rich people entering heaven.

A priest taught us that this particular rich man is in hell (the great gulf cannot be overcome so he can never leave where he is at). The bad example that he gave his brothers continues to influence them to sin which multiplies his own guilt and his own suffering in hell. If they repent and sin no more, then his own sufferings pertinent to them will lessen. He has no real compassion for his brothers because there is no compassion for others felt by anyone who is in hell. It is all about “self.”

However, not all rich men such as this one in this Lazarus story will be in hell. There will be a few who will share their surplus wealth with their neighbors in order to help them live a dignified life instead of building more barns to store their surplus for themselves. Luke 12:16-21

If you have extra, and you do not give it to provide for those who have not Luke 3:10-11, then you are not “loving your neighbor as yourself.” You have failed the test. The Royal Law is: “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27, James 2

Most rich people keep almost all of their wealth for themselves Luke 21:1-4.

So, how does a rich person know what is the right thing to do? A priest said, for example,
“If you buy a luxury car, then give this same amount of money that you spent on the luxury car to the poor.” You are then loving your neighbor as yourself. You are treating him as you treat yourself. 1 Timothy 6:17-19

 

[SHW]

A very clear Biblical example of someone being forgiven, but still having to suffer punishment for sin is David. God forgave his sin, but still required him to suffer the punishment of the loss of his son.

Also, as I have read this post I have noticed the absence of 2 Maccabees. In this book of the Bible there is a direct reference to praying for the dead. (Right now all the Catholics are cheering “It’s in our Bible” :clapping:and all the Protestants are booing:bigyikes:, Amen) What purpose if there to “pray for the dead” if there is no Purgatory?

So if you are interested in reading the relevant verse is near the end of the 12th chapter of 2nd Maccabees. If you have a hardened heart and refuse to read, amen.

The Jews still today pray the Kaddish for their dead to atone for their sins.

Why, then, is Kaddish recited by mourners?

After a great loss like the death of a parent, you might expect a person to lose faith in G-d, or to cry out against G-d’s injustice. Instead, Judaism requires a mourner to stand up every day, publicly (i.e., in front of a minyan, a quorum of 10 adult men), and reaffirm faith in G-d despite this loss. To do so inures to the merit of the deceased in the eyes of G-d, because the deceased must have been a very good parent to raise a child who could express such faith in the face of personal loss.

Then why is Kaddish recited for only 11 months, when the mourning period is 12 months? According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months. jewfaq.org/death.htm

 

[BROTHER_J]

Hello i’m a member of the catholic-Hindu communion.

We are in the process of being incorporated to catholic church while preserving our rituals.

I would like to comment about the subject of hell.

In our church, hell is divided in 9 circles and each circle is guarded by a minor deity which actually applies the punishment to the inmates.

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Join my cricket team.
cricinfo.com/india/content/team/6.html

 

[Sir_Knight]

A priest taught us that this particular rich man is in hell (the great gulf cannot be overcome so he can never leave where he is at). The bad example that he gave his brothers continues to influence them to sin which multiplies his own guilt and his own suffering in hell. If they repent and sin no more, then his own sufferings pertinent to them will lessen. He has no real compassion for his brothers because there is no compassion for others felt by anyone who is in hell. It is all about “self.”

And the Blessed Virgin revealed to the Fatima children that those in hell rejoice at seeing other souls fall into hell even though it increases their own suffering. If the Rich Man was in hell, he would want his brothers to join him there even if it increased his own pain. Since he acted in the exact opposite, it indicates that he was elsewhere.

 

[Sir_Knight]

In our church, hell is divided in 9 circles and each circle is guarded by a minor deity which actually applies the punishment to the inmates.

This is the first that I’m hearing of this. References please – either biblical or from official Church teaching, or from APPROVED revelation.

 

[SHW]

And the Blessed Virgin revealed to the Fatima children that those in hell rejoice at seeing other souls fall into hell even though it increases their own suffering. If the Rich Man was in hell, he would want his brothers to join him there even if it increased his own pain. Since he acted in the exact opposite, it indicates that he was elsewhere.

Please show me in the Fatima messages that “the Blessed Virgin revealed to the Fatima children that those in hell rejoice at seeing other souls fall into hell even though it increases their own suffering.” Thank you!

This is all that I can find regarding the vision of hell in the Fatima Prophecy:

“She opened Her hands once more, as She had done the two previous months. The rays [of light] appeared to penetrate the earth, and we saw, as it were, a vast sea of fire. Plunged in this fire, we saw the demons and the souls [of the damned]. The latter were like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, having human forms. They were floating about in that conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames which issued from within themselves, together with great clouds of smoke. Now they fell back on every side like sparks in huge fires, without weight or equilibrium, amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fright (it must have been this sight which caused me to cry out, as people say they heard me). The demons were distinguished [from the souls of the damned] by their terrifying and repellent likeness to frightful and unknown animals, black and transparent like burning coals. That vision only lasted for a moment, thanks to our good Heavenly Mother, Who at the first apparition had promised to take us to Heaven. Without that, I think that we would have died of terror and fear.” fatima.org/essentials/facts/hell.asp