Purgatory: Purification or Punishment?

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Is Purgatory for purification or for punishment?

I’ve heard some priests say that Purgatory is just the stage through which we go to so we could be pure enough to get into heaven, and that it isn’t meant for punishment. The “purge” in “purgatory” would seem to imply that too.

But I was reading Saint Faustina’s Diary and it records Jesus talking about Purgatory being retribution. It seems to imply that it is temporary punishment for our sins.

There’s also a Marian devotion wherein Mary would deliver special devotees from purgatory (I think on the first Saturday after their death?). That also would seem to imply that purgatory is punishment and retribution, since the tone of it seems more as if Mary is delivering us from the punishment rather than just purifying us.

So what’s purgatory for? Punishment or purification?
 
Purgatory is both punishment and purification: we are punished for our sins, and, in the punishment, purified of our sins.
 
It’s two words for the same thing. Punishment is corrective.

Pope Benedict XVI explained this beautifully in his encyclical Spe Salvi:
  1. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy.
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I also recommend St. Catherine of Genoa’s Treatise on Purgatory which essentially says the same thing the Holy Father discussed above, but in more detail (the actual treatise not that long, there’s just a very long intro before it).
 
Also, it bears noting that since we are all one Body, we can make satisfaction for one another through prayer, penance, alms giving, etc. In fact, the merits of Mary and all the Saints can be shared with us since we are all united–this is generally what we call an indulgence. Speaking of Mary rescuing those from purgatory is a vivid way of saying that Christ permits souls to have their satisfaction made by her merits.
 
JesuXPIPassio said:
Is Purgatory for purification or for punishment?

I’ve heard some priests say that Purgatory is just the stage through which we go to so we could be pure enough to get into heaven, and that it isn’t meant for punishment. The “purge” in “purgatory” would seem to imply that too.

But I was reading Saint Faustina’s Diary and it records Jesus talking about Purgatory being retribution. It seems to imply that it is temporary punishment for our sins.

There’s also a Marian devotion wherein Mary would deliver special devotees from purgatory (I think on the first Saturday after their death?). That also would seem to imply that purgatory is punishment and retribution, since the tone of it seems more as if Mary is delivering us from the punishment rather than just purifying us.

So what’s purgatory for? Punishment or purification?
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Just some thoughts.

Why is suffering needed to cleanse us? Some have thought of God as a hard creditor, fixing the tax of pain for every sin or every sinner. But we must not think that right and wrong are fixed arbitrarily by God; for they rest on his very nature. Not, It is right that we should suffer for sin, since God so commands; rather, He commands it because it is right. And in his goodness he has made us like himself; giving us light not only to see what his will is, but also to see to some extent what he sees. Therefore let us try to see why it is right that after repenting of our sins we must suffer for them.

Consider a spirit, angel or man, that defies God and disobeys his will. Imagine that God consents to this; treats the rebellious spirit as a welcome friend, as a fitting companion for the sinless angels and for God himself. Imagine that God creates spirits such that they can find eternal and untroubled happiness in defying their Maker, and can bask unrebuked in his love. Do we not feel at once that this is not God that we are picturing? That in some way eternal justice would be violated if these things were possible, and the holiness of God would be profaned? If God be God, such defyings and rebellion and all unholiness must be hateful to Him. His very nature requires that all sin shall bring its own punishment on the sinner.

There are, therefore, two reasons for suffering for sin: first, atonement to God; and second, the re-making of our souls. A wound or sprain is received in an instant, but very slowly is it healed. A sin is committed in an instant by an act of will, and forgiven in an instant when the will submits in love to God; but the mischief wrought by the sin in our nature is deep, and slow to mend.
 
C. S. Lewis compared Purgatory to one arriving at an English weekend party in a raging storm. One needs a bath and some dry clothes before joining the festivities.

When discussing Purgatory with my classed, I have compared it to dealer prep for a new car.
 
JesuXPIPassio said:
Is Purgatory for purification or for punishment?

I’ve heard some priests say that Purgatory is just the stage through which we go to so we could be pure enough to get into heaven, and that it isn’t meant for punishment. The “purge” in “purgatory” would seem to imply that too.

But I was reading Saint Faustina’s Diary and it records Jesus talking about Purgatory being retribution. It seems to imply that it is temporary punishment for our sins.

There’s also a Marian devotion wherein Mary would deliver special devotees from purgatory (I think on the first Saturday after their death?). That also would seem to imply that purgatory is punishment and retribution, since the tone of it seems more as if Mary is delivering us from the punishment rather than just purifying us.

So what’s purgatory for? Punishment or purification?
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CCC 1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final **purification **of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire.
 
All punishment for our sins was born by Jesus on the cross.

Purification may be painful as we have to let go attachments to “creatures” (as the catechism puts it).

every sin, even venial sin, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory (CCC 1472)

Pope Benedict’s words speak of pain, yes, but not punishment.

Purgatory is for sanctification not punishment.
 
Tomster,

You say, “Therefore let us try to see why it is right that after repenting of our sins we must suffer for them……….”

Christ died for our sins. Once, and for all. We repent of our sins because we are called to repentance by God, chosen by God to be His children, by His Grace. Christ has suffered so that we do not have to; indeed we are not fir to make atomement. We could not bear what we deserve, or what he took for us in his body on the tree.

You also say, “…….There are, therefore, two reasons for suffering for sin: first, atonement to God; and second, the re-making of our souls”.

I take issue with the first of these reasons. We CANNOT make atonement to God for our sins. That is why Christ died for us on the cross. That is what the whole Gospel message is about. That’s what the Catholic Church is about.

You again say, “If God be God, such defyings and rebellion and all unholiness must be hateful to Him. His very nature requires that all sin shall bring its own punishment on the sinner”

Of course sin is hateful to God. And we are expressly told that was why Christ paid our penalty, atoned for our sins, is the lamb of God that TAKES AWAY the sin of the world, that He was “made sin for us” etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Again I say it is because we could not pay the penalty, because we could not begin to atone that “While we were yet sinners, Christ died FOR US!” He did not die so we could be punished for our sins.

Joe Kelley refers to C.S Lewis’s view when he “compared Purgatory to one arriving at an English weekend party in a raging storm. One needs a bath and some dry clothes before joining the festivities”

He also referred to it when he said something along the lines of “When the tooth of life is pulled, someone will say here, rinse your with this”

I agree with the Pope and the theologians he mentions, and C.S. Lewis and Joe Kelley. Purgatory is a cleansing, a preparation a making ready to be in the presence of Our Blessed Lord, who has already paid the price and borne the punishment for out sin. Purgatory, in my submission, cannot be atoning as this goes completely against the Gospel message and the teachings of The Catholic Church!

God bless the Pope

Jimmy Two Guns
 
Purgatory is both purification and punishment. I think people are getting confused about the difference between temporal and eternal punishment.

When we commit sin, we offend two or more parties: God and someone else (ourselves, parent, neighbor, spouse etc). By offending God, we deserve eternal death and as finite beings cannot make up this offense. This is why we have the incarnation, the crucifixion, and the resurrection.

Now, that still leaves us with the temporal punishment. Well, some of that happens when we’re still here on earth. Going to jail for a crime, paying restitution, and other ways of making up for the temporal harm we’ve done. Sometimes we die still owing for sins committed.

Example: Joe Stalin has a last minute conversion and makes an act of perfect contrition. He’s going to go to heaven, but since he’s committed all sorts of evil acts in his life without any consequence, for justice to be done, he must be punished and purified. This occurs in purgatory.
 
That’s a really good question.

I’d long wondered how to reconcile the concept of purification with indulgences, since by definition purification has to be individualistic. Someone can do my punishment for me, but I don’t see how someone can do my purification for me.

I came across Cardinal Ratzinger addressing this in his book “Eschatology”, which might be of help to the questioner:

"Does not this prayer [for the departed] presuppose that Purgatory entails some kind of external punishment which can, for example, be graciously remitted through vicarious acceptance by others in a form of spiritual barter? And how can a third party enter into that most highly personal process of encounter with Christ, where the ‘I’ is transformed in the flame of his closeness? Is not this an event which so concerns the individual that all replacement or substitution must be ruled out? Is not the pious tradition of ‘helping the holy souls’ based on treating these souls after the fashion of ‘having’ - whereas our reflections so far have surely led to the conclusion that the heart of the matter is ‘being,’ for which there can be no substitute? Yet the being of man is not, in fact, that of a closed monad. It is related to others by love or hate, and, in these ways, has its colonies within them. My own being is present in others as guilt or as grace. We are not just ourselves; or, more correctly, we are ourselves only as being in others, with others and through others. Whether others curse us or bless us, forgive us and turn our guilt into love- this is part of our own destiny. The fact that the saints judge means that encounter with Christ is encounter with his whole body. I come face to face with my own guilt vis-a-vis the suffering members of the body as well as with the forgiving love which the body derives from Christ its Head.

‘The intercession of the saints with the Judge is not…some purely external affair whose success is necessarily doubtful since it depends on the unpredictable benevolence of the Judge. It is above all an inner weight which, placed on the scales, can bring them to sink down.’ (Balthasar) "
 
steve99 said:
All punishment for our sins was born by Jesus on the cross.

Purification may be painful as we have to let go attachments to “creatures” (as the catechism puts it).

every sin, even venial sin, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory (CCC 1472)

Pope Benedict’s words speak of pain, yes, but not punishment.

Purgatory is for sanctification not punishment.
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I think it is how we understand punishment. If we see it the same way as how a Father punishes his children–it is not simply a painful result but has the purpose of helping the child to develop into a good and holy person, then it would be right to call the pains of Purgatory punishment–just a different kind of punishment than that of damnation (the Church distinguishes the two with the phrases temporal punishment and eternal punishment).

I think everyone here who either say it is or is not punishment are all on the same page, we just are more or less comfortable with the word being applied to Purgatory based on our conception of what the word “punishment” entails.
 
Genesis315 said:
Also, it bears noting that since we are all one Body, we can make satisfaction for one another through prayer, penance, alms giving, etc. In fact, the merits of Mary and all the Saints can be shared with us since we are all united–this is generally what we call an indulgence. Speaking of Mary rescuing those from purgatory is a vivid way of saying that Christ permits souls to have their satisfaction made by her merits.
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If our penance can be meritous for others, does that mean that God also punishes us for others’ sins without our volunteering?
 
JesuXPIPassio said:
If our penance can be meritous for others, does that mean that God also punishes us for others’ sins without our volunteering?
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Perhaps. I think He allows those who can, to bear the burden of those who are weak. St. Paul says he rejoices in his own sufferings for others because they make up for what is lacking the rest of the Body of Christ.

Col. 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church:
 
As an aside, here’s a good passage on the corrective, or temporal, punishments of our Loving Father:

Heb. 12:5 And you have forgotten the consolation, which speaketh to you, as unto children, saying: My son, neglect not the discipline of the Lord; neither be thou wearied whilst thou art rebuked by him. 6 For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. 9 Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? 10 And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. 11 Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.
 
JesuXPIPassio said:
If our penance can be meritous for others, does that mean that God also punishes us for others’ sins without our volunteering?
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I sure hope so! I am in the process of healing from something staggering, and one of the ways I can make it from day to day is to consider that perhaps this isn’t about me, but someone else. I have an extraordinary support network, and maybe that other person doesn’t have anyone else to help carry his/her cross.
 
thistle said:
CCC 1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final **purification **of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire.
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Nothing in this about punishment - it is purification for thiose who have salvation…and to get salvation…? Through ther love of Jesus and the sacraments…Pleassssse guys and gals - I am in RCIA 0 the CCC spells it all out - consult the CCC…where the rubber of the magesterium meets the road to salvation…
 
I think purgatory is a purification that is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3: 12-15 where a saved man undergoes a purification fire. Here our works of gold, silver and precious stones are purified. There is nothing in any sola scripturist denomination where a saved person undergoes such a fire. To them the only fire is hell fire for the condemned. The scripture says that as we are purified we also suffer a loss. Here the punishment aspect comes in as our works of wood, hay and stubble are burned away and we lose our attachment to these works.
 
JesuXPIPassio said:
Is Purgatory for purification or for punishment?

I’ve heard some priests say that Purgatory is just the stage through which we go to so we could be pure enough to get into heaven, and that it isn’t meant for punishment. The “purge” in “purgatory” would seem to imply that too.

But I was reading Saint Faustina’s Diary and it records Jesus talking about Purgatory being retribution. It seems to imply that it is temporary punishment for our sins.

There’s also a Marian devotion wherein Mary would deliver special devotees from purgatory (I think on the first Saturday after their death?). That also would seem to imply that purgatory is punishment and retribution, since the tone of it seems more as if Mary is delivering us from the punishment rather than just purifying us.

So what’s purgatory for? Punishment or purification?
Click to expand...
 
Rightly or wrongly I have always regarded purgatory as a time for punishment and purification -at least thats my understanding of it.
 
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