Purgatory: Purification or Punishment?

[una_fides]

I don’t know what the pains etc are. However, Hell is penal, punishment for wrongdoing, while Purgatory is medicinal, curative of defects.l.

True purgatory is medicinal and does cure the defects in souls, but it also entails a degree of punishment on account of sins. Hence we have the language of indulgences remitting the “temporal punishment due to sins” for the souls in purgatory as well as for us.

This aspect of punishment for sins is found all throughout Scripture and is taught by the Church as well. For example, King David committed the grave sins of murder and adultery. He repented and his life was spared; however, he still retained the consequences of his actions and as a punishment for his sins, his son died (2 Samuel 12:13-14).

We can learn a great deal about our God from Scriptures. St. Jerome’s famous saying: “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ” also works in the positive: knowledge of Scripture is knowledge of Christ.

God bless.

 

[thistle]

What’s the difference between God’s punishment and God’s purification?

Didn’t you read my earlier post quoting the CCC?

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to t**his final purification **of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire.

 

[VociMike]

I don’t know what the pains etc are. However, Hell is penal, punishment for wrongdoing, while Purgatory is medicinal, curative of defects.l.

I agree with you. So, what part does punishment play in Purgatory? Do doctors punish their patients? I’m not asking if doctors cause their patients pain and suffering in the curing process, but rather, do doctors set out to punish their patients?

So again, and disregarding the question of punishment in hell, I keep coming back to the question of how is God’s punishment in Purgatory different from his purification in Purgatory, and furthermore, do the two not work at cross purposes? What is God’s purpose in punishing those in Purgatory?

 

[VociMike]

Didn’t you read my earlier post quoting the CCC?

CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to t**his final purification **of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire.

Yes, I know the passage well. But I want to know why God punishes those in Purgatory, as opposed to purifying them? Because I asked if there was a difference and was told that there was.

So again I’m wondering, what is God’s intention in punishing those in Purgatory? What does he hope to gain or accomplish in doing so?

 

[una_fides]

Yes, I know the passage well. But I want to know why God punishes those in Purgatory, as opposed to purifying them? Because I asked if there was a difference and was told that there was.

So again I’m wondering, what is God’s intention in punishing those in Purgatory? What does he hope to gain or accomplish in doing so?

As stated, God is fulfilling his requirement for justice. We are simultaneously purified and punished for our sins as purgatory entails both. In punishing us in purgatory, there is accomplished a sort of balancing of the scales so to speak. We committed sins and therefore deserve punishment for doing so. Christ paid the eternal punishment for those sins, but we are still left to “make up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.” That is to pay for the temporal punishments due to sins and thereby be purified.

It makes sense to me. Does God need another purpose other than the fact that he is just and his justice requires it and the fact that the punishment provides our purification?

 

[una_fides]

Yes, I know the passage well. But I want to know why God punishes those in Purgatory, as opposed to purifying them?

God purifies through punishment. There is a difference between the two but the two occur simultaneously and the one accomplishes the other.

 

[VociMike]

God purifies through punishment. There is a difference between the two but the two occur simultaneously and the one accomplishes the other.

So what’s the difference? What is the difference between the pain and suffering caused by punishment, and the pain and suffering caused by purification?

I’m just not convinced that God wants to punish those in Purgatory. I believe he wants to purify us, and that purification causes pain and suffering due to our attachment to sin.

 

[Jimmytwoguns]

I’m with VociMIKE.

Christ paid the price for our sins. He suffered, took the punishment, paid the penalty.

Now I know people will say that purgatory is about being punished for the temporal effects of sin, but we are told that "He
was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

And then we go to purgatory to be punished???

My understanding is we go to be cleansed and made fit to be in His divine presence. That cleansing may cause pain, but that pain is because of our natural incliniation to hold onto our unworthy natures. I do not believe that God, after dying on the cross for us, something we cannot ever even approach understanding, involving a love we can never appreciate, then punishes us for our sins.

Jimmy Two Guns

 

[una_fides]

So what’s the difference? What is the difference between the pain and suffering caused by punishment, and the pain and suffering caused by purification?

I’m just not convinced that God wants to punish those in Purgatory. I believe he wants to purify us, and that purification causes pain and suffering due to our attachment to sin.

If I can prove to you that it is a defined teaching of the Catholic Church that the pain and suffering in purgatory is a punishment would you be convinced or would you require more than that?

 

[una_fides]

I’m with VociMIKE.

Christ paid the price for our sins. He suffered, took the punishment, paid the penalty.

Now I know people will say that purgatory is about being punished for the temporal effects of sin, but we are told that "He
was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

And then we go to purgatory to be punished???

My understanding is we go to be cleansed and made fit to be in His divine presence. That cleansing may cause pain, but that pain is because of our natural incliniation to hold onto our unworthy natures. I do not believe that God, after dying on the cross for us, something we cannot ever even approach understanding, involving a love we can never appreciate, then punishes us for our sins.

Jimmy Two Guns

Why then do we continue to suffer in this life after we have faith and are baptized?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

. . .
My question is whether when one gains a plenary indulgence for the dead does that soul then instantly go to heaven or could it still need purification? In other words, are the two the same or are they different aspects of purgatory that are separately yet simultaneously satisfied? Could one gain full remission of the temporal punishment but still require to undergo further purification?

I think one may regard indulgences as the application of the Church’s spiritual riches to the sinner by the authority of the Pope and his possession of the keys. I have seen it noted that the Pope’s power extends only to the earth, i.e. the living. While we may apply the riches to those in Purgatory, the exact effect of that application lies with God, not the Church.

 

[VociMike]

If I can prove to you that it is a defined teaching of the Catholic Church that the pain and suffering in purgatory is a punishment would you be convinced or would you require more than that?

So it’s not a purification? The purpose of Purgatory is simply to inflict suffering as payback? Pain and suffering for the sake of pain and suffering? That’s what punishment is.

Why doesn’t the CCC say anything about the pain and suffering in Purgatory being punishment?

I think people are throwing around the word “punishment” without much thought or understanding of God’s methods or intentions.

EDIT: From the CCC: “These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.”

So in this sense the very term “punishment” seems to have no connection with the normal meaning of the word.

 

[una_fides]

So it’s not a purification? The purpose of Purgatory is simply to inflict suffering as payback? Pain and suffering for the sake of pain and suffering? That’s what punishment is.

Why doesn’t the CCC say anything about the pain and suffering in Purgatory being punishment?

I think people are throwing around the word “punishment” without much thought or understanding of God’s methods or intentions.

You did not answer my question. Would you accept that there is punishment involved in purgatory if the Church authoritatively taught such?

I don’t understand why there has to be a dualistic approach here as if the two are mutually exclusive. That’s like saying that the fact that there is one God and that both the Father and the Son are God, then it must be one or the other. If both are true and defined as such by the Church, then we must then seek to understand the relationship between them and how they coexist as truths. This is how we have development of dogma. We start at foundational building blocks of truth and continue to piece them together.

 

[VociMike]

You did not answer my question. Would you accept that there is punishment involved in purgatory if the Church authoritatively taught such?

I didn’t answer your question because simply citing the word “punishment” in a document serves no purpose unless we understand what the Church means by that word, and how it differs from purification, and how it differs from the normal understanding of the word “punishment”. If there’s anything we as Catholics know, it is that the Church sometimes uses words to mean different things than are meant by the common use of the word.

 

[una_fides]

Why doesn’t the CCC say anything about the pain and suffering in Purgatory being punishment?
…
EDIT: From the CCC: “These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.”

So in this sense the very term “punishment” seems to have no connection with the normal meaning of the word.

A good study of sin and its effects will help. Sin carries with it a punitive effect that must be amended. Christ paid the eternal price, but he did not take away our sufferings on account of sin. This is the suffering that the CCC is referring to. Not a suffering/punishment being inflicted upon us by an outside source for outside purposes but a punishment inflicted on us that we bring on ourselves by the very nature of the effects of the sins we have committed. Thus, we are bringing this punishment on ourselves as we deserve it and as it is for our own good.

 

[una_fides]

Why doesn’t the CCC say anything about the pain and suffering in Purgatory being punishment

It does, as you edited to your post. However, we must also keep in mind that the audience that the 1983 CCC had in mind was not only Catholics but also the entire world including Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, etc… Thus, dogmas are not always explained in the most precise ways and are often explained in ways that attempt to make them easier to swallow for everyone who may read. If you want more clarity from a Traditionally-minded Catholic perspective in more clear terms, I suggest the Catechism from the Council of Trent, which was written for Catholics by Catholics and uses more precise language. Also the Council of Trent itself made some rulings on purgatory and indulgences that we are all bound to believe de fide. I will post them soon for you on here to help aid our mutual understanding.

 

[steve_b]

It’s not at all clear to me, because it’s not at all clear to me what the difference is between punishment and purification.

I was talking about both being together in previous posts. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Scripture clearly talks about God doing both to us, or we aren’t His children. Maybe the Greek behind the translation, will help

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4476611&postcount=35

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4477543&postcount=41

 

[una_fides]

Here are the long awaited texts from the Catechism of the Council of Trent (catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Penance.shtml)

Satisfaction Heals The Wounds Of Sin:
St. Augustine also frequently teaches that penance exhibits at once the mercy and the justice of God, ** His mercy by which He pardons sin and the eternal punishment due to sin; His justice by which He exacts temporary punishment from the sinner.
Satisfaction Disarms The Divine Vengeance:
Finally, the punishment which the sinner endures disarms the vengeance of God and averts the punishments decreed against us. Thus the Apostle says: If we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged; but whilst we are judged, we are chastised by the Lord, that we be not condemned with this world. If all this is explained to the faithful, it must have great influence in exciting them to perform works of penance.

This is why we receive a penance from the priest when we go to confession. He is giving us a punishment that will aid in the cleansing of our soul from sin.

A further reason by way of confirmation can also be assigned. Penance is a sort of compensation for sin, springing from the free will of the delinquent, and is appointed by God, against whom the offence has been committed. Hence, on the one hand, there is required the willingness to make compensation, in which willingness contrition chiefly consists; while, on the other hand, the penitent must submit himself to the judgment of the priest, who holds God’s place, in order to enable him to award a punishment proportioned to the gravity of the sin committed. Hence the reason for and the necessity of confession and satisfaction are easily inferred.

We either can do penance (make satisfaction) for our sins while we are here on earth, or we can suffer the temporal punishments due to sin in purgatory (as long as we die in a state of grace that is). This suffering for satisfaction on account of our sins brings about the purification of the soul.

Hope this helps settle the case.

 

[thistle]

If I can prove to you that it is a defined teaching of the Catholic Church that the pain and suffering in purgatory is a punishment would you be convinced or would you require more than that?

Purgatory is for purification. It is not FOR punishment. The punishment and suffering is knowing you are saved but are still not in the presence of God.

 

[una_fides]

Purgatory is for purification. It is not FOR punishment. The punishment and suffering is knowing you are saved but are still not in the presence of God.

Do you accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church? And if so, do you accept them in the same sense that she has defined them?