I understand this theory, but I believe it to be contrary to the defined teachings of the Church on the matter. Do you accept all the teachings that the Catholic Church has defined? If so, do you accept them in the same sense as they have always been understood? The reason I ask is so that we can establish some common groundwork so we can proceed further.Purgatory is for purification. It is not FOR punishment. The punishment and suffering is knowing you are saved but are still not in the presence of God.
Show me where the Church teaches Purgatory is FOR punishment and not AS the punishment of separation from God while being purified.Do you accept all the teachings of the Catholic Church? And if so, do you accept them in the same sense that she has defined them?
Thistle,Show me where the Church teaches Purgatory is FOR punishment and not AS the punishment of separation from God while being purified.
I would agree with that but with the qualification that such punishment is totally unlike the punishment which those condemned to Hell will suffer.Thistle,
I deleted that post. I was admittedly a bit hasty in sending it out and should have thought more about what you were saying first. The difference we are talking about here is subtle, but still merits clarification. The pain experienced in purgatory is both for our purification and for punishment. I don’t see a problem with this understanding, and it seems to best fit the understandings of punishments for sin to satisfy divine justice that we read about in Trent. While the chief punishment of purgatory (as hell) is separation from God, there is also the pain of sense afflicted by fire, which is universally understood and taught by the Latin fathers.
Purgatory itself is a punishment that purifies. Would you agree with that statement?
I remember reading somewhere that Jesus told Saint Gertrude the Great(paraphrase)-:“For a penny one can pay for a Thousand Dollars worth of sin in this life,but in the next life(Purgatory) it will cost you a Thousand Dollars for one pennys worth of sin.”Is Purgatory for purification or for punishment?
I’ve heard some priests say that Purgatory is just the stage through which we go to so we could be pure enough to get into heaven, and that it isn’t meant for punishment. The “purge” in “purgatory” would seem to imply that too.
But I was reading Saint Faustina’s Diary and it records Jesus talking about Purgatory being retribution. It seems to imply that it is temporary punishment for our sins.
There’s also a Marian devotion wherein Mary would deliver special devotees from purgatory (I think on the first Saturday after their death?). That also would seem to imply that purgatory is punishment and retribution, since the tone of it seems more as if Mary is delivering us from the punishment rather than just purifying us.
So what’s purgatory for? Punishment or purification?
I don’t think that the Church has ever officially settled that issue, so it’s within speculation to think of the punishments as different in heaven and hell as long as we agree that both involve fire and both involve separation from God.I would agree with that but with the qualification that such punishment is totally unlike the punishment which those condemned to Hell will suffer.
With that established, let’s see what Aquinas had to say concerning suffering in purgatory. In his Summa Theologica he answers the following question: Whether the pains of Purgatory surpass all the temporal pains of this life?Innocent VI: “His [Aquinas’] teaching above that of others, the canonical writings alone excepted, enjoys such a precision of language, an order of matters, a truth of conclusions, that those who hold to it are never found swerving from the path of truth, and he who dare assail it will always be suspected of error.”
22. The ecumenical councils, also, where blossoms the flower of all earthly wisdom, have always been careful to hold Thomas Aquinas in singular honor. In the Councils of Lyons, Vienna, Florence, and the Vatican one might almost say that Thomas took part and presided over the deliberations and decrees of the Fathers… papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13cph.htm
He later reiterates the traditional teaching of the Church from the earliest days of the Church that souls in purgatory suffer from real “material fire”:Augustine says in a sermon (Sermone 41 de Sanctis): “This fire of Purgatory will be more severe than any pain that can be felt, seen or conceived in this world.”
I answer that, In Purgatory there will be a twofold pain; one will be the pain of loss, namely the delay of the divine vision, and the pain of sense, namely punishment by corporeal fire. With regard to both the least pain of Purgatory surpasses the greatest pain of this life. For the more a thing is desired the more painful is its absence. … And, because all bodily sensation is from the soul, it follows of necessity that the soul feels the greatest pain when a hurt is inflicted on the soul itself. That the soul suffers pain from the bodily fire is at present taken for granted.
He also explains that they are the same fires in purgatory as in hell:I answer that, Given that the fire of hell is not so called metaphorically, nor an imaginary fire, but a real corporeal fire, we must needs say that the soul will suffer punishment from a corporeal fire, since our Lord said (Matthew 25:41) that this fire was prepared for the devil and his angels, who are incorporeal even as the soul. But how it is that they can thus suffer is explained in many ways.
…Hence others say that it is necessary to admit that the soul suffers even really from the corporeal fire: wherefore Gregory says (Dialogorum iv,29): “We can gather from the words of the Gospel, that the soul suffers from the fire not only by seeing it, but also by feeling it.” … For the order of Divine justice demands that the soul which by sinning subjected itself to corporeal things should be subjected to them also in punishment.
Notice also that Aquinas always points back to Tradition. He does not invent new teachings; he reiterates and builds upon previous dogmas. Though the Church has not invoked infallibility to settle this particular aspect of the sufferings of purgatory (other than that they do indeed involve fire), the safest bet is to side with Tradition, for the Church in defining dogmas, always looks back to Tradition and does not look to mere speculation and innovation.Gregory says (the quotation is from Saint Augustine, De Civitate Dei i,8): "Even as in the same fire gold glistens and straw smokes, so in the same fire the sinner burns and the elect is cleansed." Therefore the fire of Purgatory is the same as the fire of hell
Here is some more evidence in support of the proposition that the souls in purgatory suffer immensely:I would agree with that but with the qualification that such punishment is totally unlike the punishment which those condemned to Hell will suffer.
We unequivocally can say the punishment of Hell and Purgatory are different because that is the OFFICIAL teaching of the Church.Here is some more evidence in support of the proposition that the souls in purgatory suffer immensely:
Pope Innocent VI, official declaration asking the Armenian Catholics if they hold the Catholic faith: “We ask if you have believed and now believe that there is a purgatory to which depart the souls of those dying in grace who have not yet made complete satisfaction for their sins. Also, if you have believed and now believe that they will be tortured by fire for a time and that as soon as they are cleansed, even before the day of judgment, they may come to the true and eternal beatitude which consists in the vision of God face to face and in love.”
The following tells us how we are to react to these sufferings (–through prayer):
Declaration from the Council of Trent:
“We also beg of God that we be not cut off by a sudden death; that we provoke not His anger against us; that we be not condemned to suffer the punishments reserved for the wicked; that we be not sentenced to endure the fire of purgatory, from which we piously and devoutly implore that others may be liberated.”
Thistle,We unequivocally can say the punishment of Hell and Purgatory are different because that is the OFFICIAL teaching of the Church.
CCC 1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which **is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.**The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire.
Note that fire at this point is symbolic of the suffering. We are talking of souls which would not suffer physical fire. Not knowing what the fire actually is in either case, it is hard to compare them.. . .
A more specific question to ask is whether the fire itself is different or is its effect different? The fact that purgatory is entirely different than hell does not necessarily mean or imply that the fires themselves are not the same with different effects and purposes.
. . …
Who said that the fires of purgatory were merely symbolic? St. Thomas Aquinas quoted from Pope St. Gregory the Great stating that they were both the same fire in purgatory and in hell and that the fire was a real corporeal fire. See my post #84 earlier: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4486920&postcount=84Note that fire at this point is symbolic of the suffering. We are talking of souls which would not suffer physical fire. Not knowing what the fire actually is in either case, it is hard to compare them.
I suppose hell ultimately may have physical fire for resurrected bodies.
The safest route is to accept the Church teaching that what happens in Purgatory is totally different from what goes on in Hell.Who said that the fires of purgatory were merely symbolic? St. Thomas Aquinas quoted from Pope St. Gregory the Great stating that they were both the same fire in purgatory and in hell and that the fire was a real corporeal fire. See my post #84 earlier: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4486920&postcount=84
While you are free to believe that it is a merely “symbolic” fire, I think the safest bet is to understand it in the most traditional sense as it has been traditionally understood. Saints have had visions of this actual fire and the souls there, and the Latin fathers are in agreement on this matter. If you have some church fathers or any official traditional pronouncements of the Church in support of a “symbolic” fire that is really not fire but just suffering, then I would be interested to read. I know Benedict XVI in Spe Salvi reproduced some modern theologians’ speculations, but I personally do not give these ideas much credence unless they can be backed by previous Catholic theologians. From what I have gathered, they are usually just trying to take Catholic theology and make it more easy to swallow (water it down) so that people can more easily accept it.
So you are calling St. Thomas Aquinas, Pope St. Gregory the Great, and the rest of the Latin fathers naive to think that the fires of hell are the same fires of purgatory that just have different effects on the soul? I am not one to make up theology on my own. I merely reiterate the teachings of the fathers before me. If my understanding of them is proven to be defective, then I will adapt to the Church’s tradition.The safest route is to accept the Church teaching that what happens in Purgatory is totally different from what goes on in Hell.
You surely don’t think that “cleaning fire” of Purgatory is a punishment similar to the fires of Hell. That would be naive.
How does a non-corporeal soul suffer from corporeal fire?Who said that the fires of purgatory were merely symbolic? St. Thomas Aquinas quoted from Pope St. Gregory the Great stating that they were both the same fire in purgatory and in hell and that the fire was a real corporeal fire. See my post #84 earlier: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4486920&postcount=84 . . …
Good question. The answer is too lengthy to post here so here is the link: newadvent.org/summa/5070.htm#article3How does a non-corporeal soul suffer from corporeal fire?
The Church teaching as summarised in the CCC is arrived at among other things by referencing Scripture, and the Council of Florence, the Council of Trent, and Benedict XII.So you are calling St. Thomas Aquinas, Pope St. Gregory the Great, and the rest of the Latin fathers naive to think that the fires of hell are the same fires of purgatory that just have different effects on the soul? I am not one to make up theology on my own. I merely reiterate the teachings of the fathers before me. If my understanding of them is proven to be defective, then I will adapt to the Church’s tradition.
It sounds to me that you are strongly criticizing the teachings of St. Thomas. Would you agree?
The CCC passage here is not defining a dogma, which is outside the nature of a catechism to do anyway. It is merely reiterating previous dogmas from the councils it references. In order to understand what is meant by “entirely different,” you must see how those councils explain the two states differently. The CCC does not expound or explain what it means by “entirely different.” I explained above how this idea can be understood in accordance with tradition as that is how the Church builds upon dogmas. Unless there is evidence otherwise from the councils of Florence or Trent that define purgatory in such a way as you are interpreting it, then you likely need to rethink your interpretation.The Church teaching as summarised in the CCC is arrived at among other things by referencing Scripture, and the Council of Florence, the Council of Trent, and Benedict XII.
I think I am happy to accept the Church’s teaching on this. Its not a case of adapting to the Church’s tradition. Its a matter of accepting the Church’s teaching. Do you accept it?
I am unaware of where St. Thomas ever positively taught contrary to the Immaculate Conception. Please offer supporting evidence that he positively taught such or I ask you retract your allegation. Here is an article that argues the contrary:By the way do I accept all the views of Thomas Aquinas and Pope Gregory the Great? Certainly not.
One might also ask how does a non corporeal soul suffer, or experience joy in eternity…including heaven and hell, without a body .How does a non-corporeal soul suffer from corporeal fire?
excellent explanationOne might also ask how does a non corporeal soul suffer, or experience joy in eternity…including heaven and hell, without a body .
The reason the soul can experience all things as spirit, is because the soul has memory, intellect and will tied to the body it had. All 3 properties of the soul are fully operational in eternity. The suffering is real, and so is the joy.