Purgatory question

[justasking4]

guanophore;3995228]
Originally Posted by justasking4
I don’t understand why there is so much concern over purgatory

guanophore
I don’t understand why you are so concerned about it either, ja4, since you don’t believe it exists!

Since i’m not infallible i could be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
since there are a couple of promises made that a catholic won’t have to spend much time there if they do certain things. Here are a couple of promises that if followed will not result in much or anytime in purgatory;

guanophore
Actually, purgatory exists outside of “time” so our human notions of “years” are really not relevant at all.

How would anyone know this? Secondly, one of the promises about the THE BROWN SCAPULAR is that Mary would descend into purgatory on the Saturday after a person’ death. This would involve time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
If these 2 promises are true why doesn’t the catholic church promote these so that all catholics will know them and practice them?

guanophore
These are private revelations, and are not binding on the faithful. The Catholic Church does not promote private revelations for everyone.

What do you mean not binding on the faithful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
How could they not be necessarily TRUE if the catholic church supports them?

guanophore
They have been investigated, and determined not to contain anything contrary to the public revelation given by Jesus to the Apostles.

Do you think they did teach about this in some form?

However, the possibility exists that, since they are private, they only apply to the individual that received them.

That’s not what it says. This is what it says on the Brown Scapular site:
"VALUE AND MEANING OF THE SCAPULAR

Many popes and saints have strongly recommended wearing, the Brown Scapular to the Catholic Faithful, including St. Robert Bellarmine, Pope John XXII, Pope Pius Xl, and Pope Benedict XV. For example, St. Alphonsus said: “Just as men take pride in having others wear their livery, so the Most Holy Mary is pleased when Her servants wear Her Scapular as a mark that they have dedicated themselves to Her service, and are members of the Family of the Mother of God.”

Pope Pius XII went so far as to say: “The Scapular is a practice of piety which by its very simplicity is suited to everyone, and has spread widely among the faithful of Christ to their spiritual profit.” In our own times, **Pope Paul VI said: “Let the faithful hold in high esteem the practices and devotions to the Blessed Virgin … the Rosary and the Scapular of Carmel” and in another place referred to the Scapular as: “so highly recommended by our illustrious predecessors.” **

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
The church may not know how long someone is there but evidently these promises tells us that a person would not have to be in there for long.
Is not the Brown Scapluar and the prayer of Saint Gertrude supported by the church? Has the church ever condemned these things?

guanophore
The notion of “time” is a human perception that has been overlaid upon purgation. The Kingdom of Heaven that is not of this world is not bound by time.

Not sure what you mean here. Many times when Scripture speaks of the kingdom of heaven it does say it will go on forever which is characteristic of time.

The prayer and devotion is allowed by the church. However, there are a great many things with which the Church does not agree or support that she does not outright condemn.

On this matter she does support it and encourage it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Secondly, if they have not condemned these things why does it not promote these things? Why not get the word out to all catholics to pray this prayer of Saint Gertrude so that purgatory could be emptied?

guanophore
Because it is a private revelation, and for all we know, only applies to the person who received it.

I think its far more than that. If you read what Pope Pius XII says he is saying it would apply to everyone. Correct ?

---

 

[peary1]

when i have more time than I do now, I will locate the scripture.
But, if you guys are going to provide me with ‘scripture’ that I don’t even believe to truly be from the Bible, then I don’t see how that should reassure me that you are correct in your theories.

**I guess you’ll figure it all out when you get there! **

 

[Kronotaur]

I am curious - why protestants saw fit to remove the Apocrypha from the old testament - a collection of 10 books held to be cannon for nearly 1600 years prior to their removal. Since we often times reference Maccabbees for proof of Purgatory, I thought it might be useful to analyze the validity of Maccabbees.

Reasons for removal

• OT book not originally written in Hebrew (in Greek)
• Due to it’s admittence of lost content, its validity as a devinely inspired work is called into question
• It’s writting style is not consistent with other books
• It’s historical accuracy is highly disputed (which inturn questions it’s divine inspiration)

Reasons to keep

• Chosen as one of the original cannon books of the Bible
• Considered valid and accurate for nearly 1600 years
• Removed for questionable, possibly political reasons
• Retained to preserve the understanding that the original christian concil was being lead by the holy spirit when they added it in the first place (removal challenges the validity of church authority)

What are your thoughts?

 

[Ruthie]

Kronotaur, your question is not relevant to this thread - and besides, it’s currently being discussed here, here, here, and here - among others!

Thanks,

Ruthie

 

[Feedmysheep]

Frinjaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa,

We’re all still waiting for your take on final sanctification AND those scripture references you promised…

 

[Rash]

Correction.

Maccabees was in the Christian Bible for 1600 years - as long as their has been a canon defined for the Christian Church, Macabees has been in it.

Then 500 years ago, certain Christian faiths chose to take Macabees out of their canon.

In other words, it’s not my fault they took Maccabees’s out of the Bible then ask for Scriptural Proof. You asked for Scripture, I provided it.

Correction again, the deuterocanonicals, or apocrypha, weren’t canonized until the Council of Trent in 1546. And actually, Martin Luther did not delete the books, but he instead placed them between the Old Testament and the New Testament. He deemed them “useful” in a historical sense, but agreed with the Jews in saying they are not the inspired word of God. The Jews who, through God’s faithfulness, were entrusted with the word of God (Romans 3:1-2) deemed them uninspired in 90AD, more than 1400 years before the Council of Trent. These books appeared in the first KJV and weren’t actually removed until after the American Revolution when printers decided to save time and money by omitting the rarely-used books.

 

[NotWorthy]

Correction again, the deuterocanonicals, or apocrypha, weren’t canonized until the Council of Trent in 1546.

Wrong. Show me any Bible prior to the Reformation that did not have the Deuterocanonicals in the Old Testament and I’ll eat my words.

That should be simple. The Catholic Church has preserved 100’s if not 1000’s of Bibles that are older than your church. To make this statement, you should be able to produce at least one.

What Trent did was make the Canon that the Catholic Church had decided on in the late 390’s and made it dogmatic. It was Doctrine, but not Dogma prior to the Council. Trent closed the lid on the coffin, so to speak.

In the meantime, if you have any information that is claiming that the Church ADDED the Deuterocanonicals at Trent, such as maybe CARM, then I would question anything else that site presents to you, because they should know better. It’s simply mis-leading the ignorant.

And actually, Martin Luther did not delete the books, but he instead placed them between the Old Testament and the New Testament. He deemed them “useful” in a historical sense, but agreed with the Jews in saying they are not the inspired word of God. The Jews who, through God’s faithfulness, were entrusted with the word of God (Romans 3:1-2) deemed them uninspired in 90AD,

Wrong. Tell me more about the Council of Jamnia and I will show you that they didn’t provide an Old Testament Canon. The Jews didn’t do this officially til the 1400’s. But to even claim to follow this council that rejected the 27 books of the New Testament is mind-boggling. You are going to go by what they “supposedly said” over the Christian Church that lived back then?!?!? That’s just crazy talk!

more than 1400 years before the Council of Trent. These books appeared in the first KJV and weren’t actually removed until after the American Revolution when printers decided to save time and money by omitting the rarely-used books.

Rarely used by whom? We’d been using them over 1300 years before Trent and the Reformation.

 

[Feedmysheep]

The Jews who, through God’s faithfulness, were entrusted with the word of God (Romans 3:1-2) deemed them uninspired in 90AD

Hi there, Rash, and welcome!

Just a quick comment on your first post here ever. When you talk about accepting the judgement of the Jews circa 90 AD on what was and wasn’t Divine- do you include ALL their judgements on the matter? 'Cause the way I was learned, the Jews also deemed Jesus “uninspired”, so to speak.

Or is it just the written word of God you trust their judgement on?

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi there, Rash, and welcome!

Just a quick comment on your first post here ever. When you talk about accepting the judgement of the Jews circa 90 AD on what was and wasn’t Divine- do you include ALL their judgements on the matter? 'Cause the way I was learned, the Jews also deemed Jesus “uninspired”, so to speak.

Or is it just the written word of God you trust their judgement on?

On this note, one final question to Rash:

If all Scripture should be read in the Light of Christ, how can you depend on a group of people who did not know Christ to determine the Old Testament Canon?!? And if you wish to stick to the “Jamnian Council” falsity, you would be following a group of people that knew Christ but rejected Him!

That’s just crazy talk!!

 

[guanophore]

Since i’m not infallible i could be wrong.

Yes, but you have made it clear many times that you are not here to get your wrong thinking corrected, but to turn Catholics into “bible christians”. That is why many of us think that your username, and the myriad of “questions” that go with it are disingenuous.

How would anyone know this?

Because humans only exist in time. Heaven, hell, and all other states not bound to the temporal timeline have eternal properties.

What do you think Jesus meant, when He told the thief “today, you will be with me in Paradise”?

Secondly, one of the promises about the THE BROWN SCAPULAR is that Mary would descend into purgatory on the Saturday after a person’ death. This would involve time.

Those who exist in eternity are able to enter time. With the help of God, those who exist in time can also enter eternity.

What do you mean not binding on the faithful?

Private revelations are given to certain specific individuals for personal reasons. They are binding on the persons to which they have been given, not everyone else.

Do you think they did teach about this in some form?

Are you asking if the Catholic Church teaches some form of things revealed in private?

If so, there are many private devotions that are encouraged and commended to the faithful, such as the Rosary.

That’s not what it says. This is what it says on the Brown Scapular site:
"VALUE AND MEANING OF THE SCAPULAR

Many popes and saints have strongly recommended wearing, the Brown Scapular to the Catholic Faithful, including St. Robert Bellarmine, Pope John XXII, Pope Pius Xl, and Pope Benedict XV. For example, St. Alphonsus said: “Just as men take pride in having others wear their livery, so the Most Holy Mary is pleased when Her servants wear Her Scapular as a mark that they have dedicated themselves to Her service, and are members of the Family of the Mother of God.”

Pope Pius XII went so far as to say: “The Scapular is a practice of piety which by its very simplicity is suited to everyone, and has spread widely among the faithful of Christ to their spiritual profit.” In our own times, **Pope Paul VI said: “Let the faithful hold in high esteem the practices and devotions to the Blessed Virgin … the Rosary and the Scapular of Carmel” and in another place referred to the Scapular as: “so highly recommended by our illustrious predecessors.” **

Well, you give a good example to illustrate that it is exactly what it says. Private revelations are not binding on the faithful, and the possiblity always exists that they apply only to the person who receives them.

Not sure what you mean here.

The notion of “time” is a human perception that has been overlaid upon purgation. The Kingdom of Heaven that is not of this world is not bound by time.

Many times when Scripture speaks of the kingdom of heaven it does say it will go on forever which is characteristic of time.

Our puny human minds cannot comprehend eternity.

On this matter she does support it and encourage it.

Support and encouragement of a pious private devotional practice still does not equate to such a practice being binding on everyone. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that God might require one person to do something that another is not? Look at John the baptist! You don’t see everyone living his lifestyle of hair shirts, grasshoppers, and living in the wild.

I think its far more than that. If you read what Pope Pius XII says he is saying it would apply to everyone. Correct ?

No. He is saying he believes everyone would benefit from it.

The Baptist might also say that his lifestyle would benefit everyone.

 

[guanophore]

Correction again, the deuterocanonicals, or apocrypha, weren’t canonized until the Council of Trent in 1546. And actually, Martin Luther did not delete the books, but he instead placed them between the Old Testament and the New Testament. He deemed them “useful” in a historical sense, but agreed with the Jews in saying they are not the inspired word of God. The Jews who, through God’s faithfulness, were entrusted with the word of God (Romans 3:1-2) deemed them uninspired in 90AD, more than 1400 years before the Council of Trent. These books appeared in the first KJV and weren’t actually removed until after the American Revolution when printers decided to save time and money by omitting the rarely-used books.

I suggest you follow the links to the threads referenced above for this subject, which is off topic in this thread. However, you are in error that the deuterocaonanicals (which are not apocryphal) were not canonized by the fourth century. You have a lot to learn about your family history. You are also in error about the placement of these books for Luther. You are following a canon from the Jews that rejected Christ, and naturally they considered them uninspired, since they spoke of Jesus and His teachings!

One of these teachings was purgatory.

 

[justasking4]

Yes, but you have made it clear many times that you are not here to get your wrong thinking corrected, but to turn Catholics into “bible christians”. That is why many of us think that your username, and the myriad of “questions” that go with it are disingenuous.

Because humans only exist in time. Heaven, hell, and all other states not bound to the temporal timeline have eternal properties.

What do you think Jesus meant, when He told the thief “today, you will be with me in Paradise”?

Those who exist in eternity are able to enter time. With the help of God, those who exist in time can also enter eternity.

Private revelations are given to certain specific individuals for personal reasons. They are binding on the persons to which they have been given, not everyone else.

Are you asking if the Catholic Church teaches some form of things revealed in private?

If so, there are many private devotions that are encouraged and commended to the faithful, such as the Rosary.

Well, you give a good example to illustrate that it is exactly what it says. Private revelations are not binding on the faithful, and the possiblity always exists that they apply only to the person who receives them.

The notion of “time” is a human perception that has been overlaid upon purgation. The Kingdom of Heaven that is not of this world is not bound by time.

Our puny human minds cannot comprehend eternity.

Support and encouragement of a pious private devotional practice still does not equate to such a practice being binding on everyone. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that God might require one person to do something that another is not? Look at John the baptist! You don’t see everyone living his lifestyle of hair shirts, grasshoppers, and living in the wild.

No. He is saying he believes everyone would benefit from it.

The Baptist might also say that his lifestyle would benefit everyone.

If every catholic was commanded to wear the scapluar would it not follow that purgatory would not even be an issue in the catholic church since there would not be any one there but a few?

The same goes for praying the rosary. In Our Lady’s 15 Promises for Praying the Rosary in promise #9 it says “I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
Should one require Purgatorial cleansing after death, Our Lady will make a special effort to obtain our release from Purgatory through Her intercession as Advocate.”

Even though these may have been private revelations the application of them would be universal. Correct?

 

[guanophore]

If every catholic was commanded to wear the scapluar would it not follow that purgatory would not even be an issue in the catholic church since there would not be any one there but a few?

Purgatory is not “an issue in the Catholic Church”, ja4. It is an issue for you because you have rejected part of the Apostolic Teaching.

Wearing a cloth does not release anyone from Purgatory. The devotion of the Brown Scapular is a lifestyle of prayer and focus. It is these practices that serve to benefit the souls of others. It is not some sort of “magic” as you seem to imply.

The same goes for praying the rosary. In Our Lady’s 15 Promises for Praying the Rosary in promise #9 it says “I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.
Should one require Purgatorial cleansing after death, Our Lady will make a special effort to obtain our release from Purgatory through Her intercession as Advocate.”

Even though these may have been private revelations the application of them would be universal. Correct?

There are some elements of private revelation that are considered to have universal applications. There are many avenues by which we can improve our cleansing throughout this life, and by which we can contribute to the sanctification of the souls of others in the Body. The Rosary is one of these devotions.

 

[peary1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
since there are a couple of promises made that a catholic won’t have to spend much time there if they do certain things.

**IT’S NOT A PLACE!! ** :banghead:

 

[NotWorthy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
since there are a couple of promises made that a catholic won’t have to spend much time there if they do certain things.

**IT’S NOT A PLACE!! ** :banghead:

Could this just be a matter of semantics? I know that this helps my feeble mind get at least a minor hold around the teaching.

 

[peary1]

Could this just be a matter of semantics? I know that this helps my feeble mind get at least a minor hold around the teaching.

Some will argue it’s an authentic place one goes to in the afterlife; others will argue that it is the possible state of one’s soul after death, which I believe. After that, we know nothing else about it. The Catechism of the Catholic Church does not specify it as a place at all, but as a purification for heaven.

 

[justasking4]

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
since there are a couple of promises made that a catholic won’t have to spend much time there if they do certain things.

**IT’S NOT A PLACE!! ** :banghead:

How do you know its not a place? We know that when a person dies they are no longer here on earth and they go somewhere.

 

[peary1]

How do you know its not a place? We know that when a person dies they are no longer here on earth and they go somewhere.

**The Bible says that when we are absent from the body we are with the Lord. Amen.:**thumbsup:

 

[justasking4]

**
Originally Posted by justasking4
How do you know its not a place? We know that when a person dies they are no longer here on earth and they go somewhere.

peary1
The Bible says that when we are absent from the body we are with the Lord. Amen.:**thumbsup:

This is true and it would rule out purgatory.

 

[peary1]

This is true and it would rule out purgatory.

No it does not because when one goes through purification after death, he or she is assured of heaven; thus, we are with the Lord and it is His love that is agony for us until we behold the Beatific Vision.