Purgatory: Real or Imagined?

[beartaich]

Purgatory. I grew up in a Catholic home, went to Catholic schools and attended mass all the time because I “had” to. To this day, I cannot understand just WHY Catholics run off to mass every Sunday, (or Saturday night, so Sunday isn’t shot) arrive late, leave 20 minutes early, and wow, they “got it done” for the week. Then to believe in something like Purgatory, well, that is beyond my imagination.

We are saved through the Sacrifice that Jesus made on the Cross. We confess to God, not to a man (priest), we are to ONLY call ONE person “Father”, not another man (priest).

To believe in Purgatory is shameful. It would mean that the Crucifixion just wasn’t enough. I do know that when sins are forgiven, they are forgiven, as long as we are truly sorry for them.

I no longer belong to the Catholic church and I will not go back. Everything that I learned when I was a child in the 1950’s has been changed, deleted or forgotten about. I am happy to say that I have been born again, have been immersion baptised and have a much, much better understanding of God than ever before.

“I will remember no more…”

"Passage Hebrews 10:16-22:

  16"(A)THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
     AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
     I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
     AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,"
     He then says, 
  17"(B)AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
     I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."

18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin."

As I mentioned, the thought of Purgatory is offensive and goes against the teachings of God.

 

[jmcrae]

Purgatory. I grew up in a Catholic home, went to Catholic schools and attended mass all the time because I “had” to.

With an attitude like that, no wonder you never learned anything.

To this day, I cannot understand just WHY Catholics run off to mass every Sunday, (or Saturday night, so Sunday isn’t shot) arrive late, leave 20 minutes early, and wow, they “got it done” for the week.

Because doing it badly is better than not doing it at all - you make it sound like this happens all the time though. It doesn’t. Sometimes people are having a bad day. I’m sure it happens in Protestant churches, too.

Then to believe in something like Purgatory, well, that is beyond my imagination.

Perhaps you are short of imagination.

We are saved through the Sacrifice that Jesus made on the Cross. We confess to God, not to a man (priest), we are to ONLY call ONE person “Father”, not another man (priest).

James 5:16 - “Confess, therefore, your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be saved.” The priest is handy, because he is already “in persona Christi” by virtue of his ordination, and also, he knows how the ritual goes, and can remind us when we need help with it. It’s also handy that he has the power of the Keys, handed down to him from the Apostles through the laying on of hands, to bind and loose our sins.

To believe in Purgatory is shameful. It would mean that the Crucifixion just wasn’t enough. I do know that when sins are forgiven, they are forgiven, as long as we are truly sorry for them.

Matthew 5:48 - "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect."

Are you perfect already? What happens if your sins are forgiven, but you aren’t perfect yet, when you die? Can’t go to Hell, can’t go to Heaven. What’s going to happen to you then?

It’s too bad that the Protestants threw out the Books of the Maccabees, since they also teach quite clearly on the subject of Purgatory.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Purgatory. … Then to believe in something like Purgatory, well, that is beyond my imagination.

I’ll ask you my question now from the post this converstation started on…

What do you think purgatory is? Can you describe it?

 

[LilyM]

Call no man father? What on earth do you call your male adopted or biological parent then???

As for priests - Paul numerous times refers to different people he’s writing to or writing about as his ‘children’ - in a spiritual sense of course. For twenty points guess what that makes him in relation to them … that’d be their father, no?? And sure enough, there are places where he explicitly calls himself their ‘father’.

 

[beartaich]

BelFarfalla - Yes, when I was attending the Catholic school, Purgatory was taught as a place that had fire such as Hell and you had to go there unless you died in the state of grace. You could stockpile indulgences, that would help you get out sooner. Also, the nuns taught that if you died wearing a scapular, you had it pretty good as the Blessed Mother visits Purgatory every Thursday and if you are there, with your scapular on, She’d take you right to Heaven. Wow.

jmcrae - We “had” to go to church. I was just trying to make a point when I said “had”. I didn’t mind it, but after a while, you noticed that people were just sitting there, daydreaming, staring out the window. As far as people leaving early and arriving late, that is something that ALWAYS happens. It’s not an isolated incident. You might not notice it when you are in church yourself, but just for humor, go watch the people that leave early. You’ll see the first volley of people leaving, usually about 20 minutes before the service is over. I know. I witness that every Saturday.

I have never seen anyone leave a Protestant service early. Not unless they were carried out on a stretcher.

 

[LilyM]

I have never seen anyone leave a Protestant service early. Not unless they were carried out on a stretcher.

Congratulations. I’ve been to Protestant services, I’ve seen it.

Or arrive very late, for no better reason than they didn’t wholeheartedly want to be there. Same deal.

 

[beartaich]

LilyM, not anywhere near as much as it happens before and after a mass.

 

[deb1]

I am a convert and I LOVE PURGATORY!!

What a beautiful plan God has for us all.

On earth we still sin despite our salvation. Does this mean that Christ’s sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient. After all, if you sin after you accept Jesus does that mean that the Holy Spirit was too weak to perfect you?

No, it means that we still have faults and weakenss.

Nothing unclean can enter heaven. If you still sin, then how do you enter heaven?

Easy, God continues the cleansing process started on earth. Once we enter heaven we will be free of all those petty jealousys, trival anger, and other faults that we fought against on earth.

You don’t have to call it purgatory but do you believe that you will be the exact same way in heaven that you are on earth? Don’t you believe that you will undergo some sort of change on death or before entering heaven?

Guess what? That is purgatory, even if you don’t use the word.

 

[jmcrae]

I have never seen anyone leave a Protestant service early. Not unless they were carried out on a stretcher.

I have. I ushered at a Protestant church off and on for 13 years. Lots of people arrived late, and lots of people left early. We sneaked them in and out the west transept door, so that nobody in the congregation would be disturbed, or even notice.

The problem with a lot of Catholic churches is not that more people arrive late or leave early - it’s the poorly trained ushers who let them, and sometimes even make them, barge up and down the centre aisle in the middle of Mass. If they were properly taken care of, you’d never notice them at Mass any more than you do in a Protestant church.

But that’s just a side issue, anyway. People arriving late or leaving early have nothing to do with Christ’s Truth.

 

[beartaich]

Deb, things in Heaven will be different. Yet if one truly believes, there will be no Purgatory. I’m happy that you are happy with your conversion, but I will never go back to the RCC church.

I am offended by people that pray for the dead. How about the folks that pay obscene amounts of money for Gregorian masses, so that person will go to Heaven, even if he/she were in Hell? These are beliefs that I WAS TAUGHT when I went to the Catholic school. None of this was imagined or thought up.

Things change, yes, I understand that, but this much?

 

[jmcrae]

These are beliefs that I WAS TAUGHT when I went to the Catholic school.

If so, then you were a victim of really, really bad Catechesis.

It’s also quite possible that you heard wrong, as well, though. I know I had to study many subjects over again when I went to high school and college because I misheard and misunderstood all kinds of things when I was in elementary school.

 

[deb1]

We are saved through the Sacrifice that Jesus made on the Cross. . I do know that when sins are forgiven, they are forgiven, as long as we are truly sorry for them.

.

well, I say amen. Guess what? Catholics agree, once your sins are forgiven, then they are forgiven. The problem is that you don’t really understand what purgatory is. That’s okay. This is what this forum is for.

I think that the concept of purgatory can best be explained through examples.

Imagine that you have a child who was able to save up some money for him/her self. Now imagine that through your child’s own carelessness, that they toss a ball through the neighbor’s window and shattered the glass. You take the child to the neighbor and your child is honestly contrite. Your neighbor forgives your child completely. Would you doubt the sincerity of your neighbor’s forgiveness if they asked your child to pay to replace the shattered window? After all despite either your child’s remorse or your neighbor’s forgiveness, the window remains shattered and needs replacing.

Yes, Jesus forgives your sin but it doesn’t change the fact that sin leaves a mark upon your soul. And that mark needs cleansing.

Or here is another example: Imagine two Christians. One is a sweet, elderly lady who really suffered for her faith. Maybe she lived in a country that was unfriendly to Christians. She read her bible, prayed and brought others to Christ despite the danger to her own life.

Now imagine the other Christian. He is a horrible serial killer. Shortly before his execution, fear of death made him contemplate the after life. He comes to a sincere understanding of his sins and wishes to accept Jesus as savior. He dies a Christian.

Both will go to heaven.

But it will take longer for the former serial killer to be cleansed and perfected before he enters heaven then the sweet older lady.

Doesn’t that make sense?

 

[beartaich]

jmcrae, both of my sisters, (one older, one younger) were also taught the same stuff. Our parents pounded this into our heads as well. This was in a suburb of Detroit and I am still in contact with some of the kids that I went to school with. They still cling to all that stuff. Holy medals, scapulars, statues, pocket ministries, miraculous medals, etc.

Even a close family member told me to pray TO a deceased family member.

Why?

 

[beartaich]

deb1, yes it makes sense and I do understand what the Catholics teach about Purgatory. It is hardly Biblical, according to certain verses in Hebrews, Luke, Revelation, Psalms, etc.

 

[deb1]

LilyM, not anywhere near as much as it happens before and after a mass./quote

I grew up in Baptist Churches and I can assure you that it is no different.

In some churches the congregation is taught that you can tell a ‘real’ Christian by how they act, so a very judgemental spirit creeps in. Anyone who isn’t acting exactly as they should is considered by the other church members as not a “real” Christian. That fear of being judged can have a powerful effect on people

I attended a church in which the pastor taught that if you didn’t want to be in church the moment the doors opened then you were probably not full of the Holy Spirit and therefor not a Christian.

I decided that I didn’t want to go to church on Wednesday night. I sent my kids and hubby but I thought that I could get a well deserved alone time on that night. The pastor and a group of women approached me after a service and lambasted me for not being spiritual enough. Why? Because I didn’t want to attend church three times a week on top of constantly volunteering.

If this is the type of pressure that makes some people go to church, then I want no part of it.

Please notice, i am not saying that all Protestant churches are like this. I know plenty good Protestants who I respect.

 

[deb1]

Deb, things in Heaven will be different. Yet if one truly believes, there will be no Purgatory. I’m happy that you are happy with your conversion, but I will never go back to the RCC church.

I am offended by people that pray for the dead. How about the folks that pay obscene amounts of money for Gregorian masses, so that person will go to Heaven, even if he/she were in Hell? These are beliefs that I WAS TAUGHT when I went to the Catholic school. None of this was imagined or thought up.

Things change, yes, I understand that, but this much?

I had a mass said for my mom and do to finances I did not have to pay. Even if I had to, it is only ten dollars and that is a donation not a requirement.

You can not pray a person out of HELL. You are mistaken about that. Catholics do not believe that.

 

[deb1]

deb1, yes it makes sense and I do understand what the Catholics teach about Purgatory. It is hardly Biblical, according to certain verses in Hebrews, Luke, Revelation, Psalms, etc.

I used to have verses that supported Purgatory but I need to refind them. But give me time and I will post some.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae, both of my sisters, (one older, one younger) were also taught the same stuff. Our parents pounded this into our heads as well.

What, that Purgatory is in Hell? It isn’t - it’s part of the Way of the Cross that leads to Heaven.

They still cling to all that stuff. Holy medals, scapulars, statues, pocket ministries, miraculous medals, etc.

There’s nothing the matter with those things - I wear a scapular with St. Benedict and Miraculous medals, and a crucifix, and I carry a Rosary in my pocket. I don’t pray to these objects, and I don’t think they’re magical - they’re important reminders of my faith, and the prayers that go with them build my confidence.

Even a close family member told me to pray TO a deceased family member.

Why?

Because she is up in Heaven now with God, and she can add her prayers to yours. Prayer is just the telephone line to Heaven - nobody was asking you to worship your family member - who by the way is very much alive right now - more alive than you or I. She can help you.

I always find it amazing that Protestants don’t mind doing hard work here on earth, and being useful to one another, but as soon as people get to Heaven, somehow they go blind and deaf, and all their limbs get tied up and paralyzed, and they can’t do a single thing - does that really sound like Heaven, to you? Things are supposed to be better and more free in Heaven - not less.

If you can call up a tow truck driver to come and get you out of the ditch here on earth, where we are all pale shadows of what we will be when we get to heaven, then why can’t we call upon the Saints to help us, who are much more powerful now that they’re in Heaven than they ever were when they were alive on the earth?

If a sinful tow truck driver can get you out of the ditch here on earth, then a perfect Saint can help you pray to God. I think?

 

[beartaich]

Deb1, when I am at my new church, it saddens me when the message is over. I want it to go on and on.

 

[beartaich]

Deb, but that is what I was taught. Just one of the things that got changed along thte way.

jmcrae, I did NOT say that purgatory was in hell. Get off that, would you?

I am sorry, but I am NOT going to pray TO anyone but God.

Sorry.