Purgatory: Real or Imagined?

[jmcrae]

Deb1, when I am at my new church, it saddens me when the message is over. I want it to go on and on.

Do you worship God down on your knees at your church, as we do in the Catholic Church? Just curious. The Protestant Church that I went to never had any kneeling. The sermon was the “main event” - I didn’t even know what “worship” was until I became Catholic; I thought it meant singing and listening to the Bible readings and the sermon.

We have good homilies at our parish, too, though - they’re better than the Protestant ones that I used to hear. Our little Filipino priest manages to pack quite a wallop into a 10 minute homily; he doesn’t spend forty minutes wandering from pillar to post exegeting the Greek - he just puts it all into plain English and then tells you what you ought to do about it.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Deb, but that is what I was taught. Just one of the things that got changed along thte way.

That is what was actually in your Catholic text books and in the Catechism? These sources actually told you that Mary would come to Purgatory on Thursdays and save you? The literature actually told you to stock pile indulgences?

The teaching material in my Catholic School never taught anything like that.

 

[deb1]

Deb, but that is what I was taught. Just one of the things that got changed along thte way.

jmcrae, I did NOT say that purgatory was in hell. Get off that, would you?

I am sorry, but I am NOT going to pray TO anyone but God.

Sorry.

To pray means simply to ask. If you ask your neighbor for a cup of sugar then you have prayed to them. Yes, that sounds weird by modern usage of words but it is true. Remember reading Shakespere in school and thinking how odd is was to hear of people saying things like, “Pray thee for a piece of bread.” or whatever they said. They weren’t worshipping one another. THey were simply asking someone for something.

So, never, never ask anyone for anything again.

 

[deb1]

Deb1, when I am at my new church, it saddens me when the message is over. I want it to go on and on.

That is great!! Normally, I feel that way about mass. Since my hubby has left for Afghanistan, I sometimes feel sad about going to church without him. That has nothing to do with the holiness of our Church but my own emotional association of attending church with him. Once I get to church though, I feel revitalized.

 

[beartaich]

BelFar, yes, it is what we were taught. It was in our “Religion” books, not in the Baltimore Catechism. I couldn’t make up this stuff. IT WAS TAUGHT. Yes, the stockpiling of indulgences was all there. I was in the catholic schools in the 1950’s.

jmcrae, a few years ago, I was helping my husband with his job and it was Palm Sunday. I had just come from my church and had to deliver something to a lady. She had pictures of the Sacred Heart and Mary all over her front door and she came to the door and was wearing a holy medal. I knew she was catholic, and seeing all the pictures and stuff, I thought I’d mention something about church that day. My mind was so full of the wonderful message that day, that I couldn’t help but say to her, “wasn’t church wonderful today?”, thinking that since she had obviously gone to mass. She said “yes it was! I didn’t think we’d ever get out, it was that long!”

I was stunned. How can anyone tire of the Good Word? But she was complaining about the long time in church and all I could think of, was how I wanted more and more.

Oh well.

 

[beartaich]

Deb, I am sorry to hear that he is so far away. I was in Vietnam for a bit. Hubby went to England at that time.

I’m happy that you are happy with your church as I am with mine. Since I have been going to my church, after my immersion baptism, I have had God speak to me in many ways. I have also witnessed many miracles since my conversion.

 

[deb1]

Deb, but that is what I was taught. Just one of the things that got changed along thte way.

jmcrae, I did NOT say that purgatory was in hell. Get off that, would you?

I am sorry, but I am NOT going to pray TO anyone but God.

Sorry.

I don’t think that the fault is the church, Bear. It sounds as if you had some very bad teachers.

Nothing has changed. You were just not taught correctly.

Perhaps someone on this site could provide some quotes from older Catholic literature.

My whole family is Baptists. Some of the things they believe are odd also, but I understand that despite what I was taught that these odd believes don’t represent all or even most Baptists. My family was very rural and poor and sometimes when you combine these two facts, you get religious but superstitious people. Perhaps that is what happened to you, only instead of being Baptist, you were Catholic. Is that possible?

 

[BelFarfalla]

BelFar, yes, it is what we were taught. It was in our “Religion” books, not in the Baltimore Catechism. I couldn’t make up this stuff. IT WAS TAUGHT. Yes, the stockpiling of indulgences was all there. I was in the catholic schools in the 1950’s. .

I attended Catholic schools in the 1950s too. Never had anyone tell me to stockpile indulgences.

So how were you supposed to obtain these indulgences?

I was stunned. How can anyone tire of the Good Word? But she was complaining about the long time in church and all I could think of, was how I wanted more and more.

Oh well.

You take one story like this and try to paint an tire religion because of it.

 

[LilyM]

Deb, I am sorry to hear that he is so far away. I was in Vietnam for a bit. Hubby went to England at that time.

I’m happy that you are happy with your church as I am with mine. Since I have been going to my church, after my immersion baptism, I have had God speak to me in many ways. I have also witnessed many miracles since my conversion.

Got news for you - if you feel closer to God in your current church it’s because you’ve changed, not him! He’s the same God as he was when you were Catholic. YOU are the one who is different now. Funny that.

 

[beartaich]

Bel, I do what? “try to paint an tire religion because of it”???

I am NOT trying to paint anything, much less “an tire” whatever that means.

Instead of discussion, there is the typical “us vs. them” thing here. I am really tired of it.

I feel that I have conquered an awful lot of the damage that was done to me by the nuns and the craziness of the church back then. I am very happy where I am now. I apologise to everyone here, I should never have posted. I am now closer to God than I ever was as a child.

I could go on and on, but I know I would be accused of any number of things, so I will leave you good people for the night. I am quite tired and I need my oxygen.

 

[mark_a]

LilyM, not anywhere near as much as it happens before and after a mass.

I disagree with most of what you said, but not this. Many people make a bee line for the door instead of returning to their seats to pray right after communion.

I have been to some Catholic churches where the announcements before mass include "it is our custom here at st so and so Catholic Church to finish the recessional hymn before leaving to love and serve the Lord.

Its a shame people leave early, but what makes you think they wouldn’t leave a Protestant service early?

 

[jmcrae]

She said “yes it was! I didn’t think we’d ever get out, it was that long!”

She said yes, it was wonderful. What’s wrong with that?

I was stunned. How can anyone tire of the Good Word? But she was complaining about the long time in church and all I could think of, was how I wanted more and more.

Was she really complaining, or were you just reading that into what she said? Maybe she was just commenting that it was a long Mass - after all, she did say that it was wonderful, didn’t she?

Also, just because someone becomes tired after a long day of standing and kneeling at Mass (Palm Sunday Mass is two hours long at our parish, and there is very little sitting down at that one - it’s all standing and kneeling except for the Epistle reading and the preface of the Eucharistic prayer), doesn’t mean they aren’t keen on the Word of God.

Deb is right - there is nothing in official Catholic teaching about Mary going to Purgatory on Thursdays and getting everybody out who has a Brown Scapular. (I always thought she was supposed to come on Saturdays … - sorry, just kidding!! )

There is also nothing about “stockpiling” Indulgences. I suppose there is a sense in which one could stockpile Indulgences - in my case, I give them to my Angel as soon as I get them and trust that my Angel knows who in Purgatory would benefit the most from them.

 

[deb1]

Bel, I do what? “try to paint an tire religion because of it”???

I am NOT trying to paint anything, much less “an tire” whatever that means.

Instead of discussion, there is the typical “us vs. them” thing here. I am really tired of it.

I feel that I have conquered an awful lot of the damage that was done to me by the nuns and the craziness of the church back then. I am very happy where I am now. I apologise to everyone here, I should never have posted. I am now closer to God than I ever was as a child.

I could go on and on, but I know I would be accused of any number of things, so I will leave you good people for the night. I am quite tired and I need my oxygen.

No, keep posting. Its an interesting topic.

But you can’t expect us not to answer you or defend our faith. Its not that its an us against them mentality. We just disagree with you on this manner.

If you post long enough, people who disagreed with you on this subject will agree with you on different subject. This forum tends to even out in the end.

 

[deb1]

BelFar, yes, it is what we were taught. It was in our “Religion” books, not in the Baltimore Catechism. I couldn’t make up this stuff. IT WAS TAUGHT. Yes, the stockpiling of indulgences was all there. I was in the catholic schools in the 1950’s.

jmcrae, a few years ago, I was helping my husband with his job and it was Palm Sunday. I had just come from my church and had to deliver something to a lady. She had pictures of the Sacred Heart and Mary all over her front door and she came to the door and was wearing a holy medal. I knew she was catholic, and seeing all the pictures and stuff, I thought I’d mention something about church that day. My mind was so full of the wonderful message that day, that I couldn’t help but say to her, “wasn’t church wonderful today?”, thinking that since she had obviously gone to mass. She said “yes it was! I didn’t think we’d ever get out, it was that long!”

I was stunned. How can anyone tire of the Good Word? But she was complaining about the long time in church and all I could think of, was how I wanted more and more.

Oh well.

I bet that you have forgotten the athletic nature of Catholic worship. Up, down, kneel, turn and shake a few hands, She might have been just honestly worn out!

 

[Mannyfit75]

Purgatory is not in the Scripture it is implied.

Consider this passage:

Therefore God has exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and everyone tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. - Philippians 2:9-11

Under the earth is Purgatory. God is not exalted in hell, so the third place is Purgatory…

 

[Karl_Vogelheim]

I find it amazing that people do not believe in purgatory. It is not a new belief, it comes to us from the Bible, the Apostles and the Fathers of the Church.

Prayer for the dead was and is a Jewish tradition (praying Kadish) and is mentioned in Maccabees.

There are great texts on the Catholic Answers web site on Purgatory and the Bible itself indicates we must be purified before we enter heaven.

Even the natural law requires purification. A person robs a bank, gets caught and goes to prison (purification) even if all the money is recovered. Once the purification is complete and the person has paid their debt to society, they are released (to heaven?) back into society. The nice thing about purgatory as far as God is concerned is, you never have to be a second offender.

As far as leaving early or coming late to Church is concerned, what does that have to do with us? We will not be judged on other peoples faults, only our own. I suggest that this is just another “Red Hering”.

People don’t just leave the Catholic Church. They leave for a spouse, or because they have lost the gift of faith (use it or lose it) or because they are lazy or have a poor knowledge of their faith. They want the easy way out and they take it. There are also those who think that since they don’t believe a doctrine, it does not exist. They are in for a rude awakening.

The Church has existed for 2007 plus or minus years. Look to Rome and you can never go wrong. You might want to read Scott Hahn’s book, Rome Sweet Home, before you give up the Church altogether.

Somebody stuck something in about the Inquisition. You are obviously ignorant. The inquisition was never about the Jews, it was about those people who said they were Catholic but never converted in the first place.

Read real authors about the Inquisition. Read Hillaire Belloc on the Crusades. Read the real story about Pope Pius the XII and world war II. See why Gold Meier and other Jewish leaders praised him for his saving thousands of Jews, after WWII.

Stop whining and get a life. Stop parroting the anti-Catholic rhetoric, most of which was made up by the anti-Catholic Protestants of the 19th century and the 7th day Adventists of today. Get the facts. Pray the Rosary and get yourselves straight!

 

[beartaich]

Thought that I’d check back here once more before turning on the oxygen machine.

Yes, I know that there is a lot of standing, kneeling, up and down at a mass. That’s OK, but from my “own” experience" I know that if a homily is more than ten seconds long, there are people complaining. Even my own folks, who are in their late 80’s. My mom goes to mass all the time and drags dad, who can barely walk and doesn’t really know what is going on around him. She goes, flirts with the guys and comes back home. I do the driving but I won’t go into the church. That is how I’ve made my observations again about folks going in late and leaving early.

That little old lady wasn’t tired out, she even mentioned to me that she misses the “old days” when mass was in Latin and you didn’t have to know what was going on. wow.

 

[beartaich]

Karl,

I am not whining and I do not need to “get a life”. I have one, thank you and I am happy with where I am now. I would rather die than to go back where I was.

 

[deb1]

Thought that I’d check back here once more before turning on the oxygen machine.

Yes, I know that there is a lot of standing, kneeling, up and down at a mass. That’s OK, but from my “own” experience" I know that if a homily is more than ten seconds long, there are people complaining. Even my own folks, who are in their late 80’s. My mom goes to mass all the time and drags dad, who can barely walk and doesn’t really know what is going on around him. She goes, flirts with the guys and comes back home. I do the driving but I won’t go into the church. That is how I’ve made my observations again about folks going in late and leaving early.

That little old lady wasn’t tired out, she even mentioned to me that she misses the “old days” when mass was in Latin and you didn’t have to know what was going on. wow.

Did she specifically say that she missed not knowing what was going on or just that she missed the Latin? I’ve always wanted to go to a Latin mass. Not so I’ll be confused. I just think that it would be interesting.

I honestly don’t know, weren’t the homilies in english before Vatican 2?

 

[beartaich]

deb, no… what she said to me, was that when the mass was in Latin, she could just sit there and not have to participate much more than parrotting the latin responses. She now had to give her responses in English, thus, more participation.

She also mentioned that she was tired of having to “participate” so much, that she already has ALL she needs to get to Heaven when she dies. She wears her holy medals, she has people praying when she is dead and all that. I’m sorry, but I just cannot subscribe to that.

It saddened me, to know that I received so much from my service that day, that I felt so much of God touching me! Then I met this lady and all she could do was complain about how long the preaching was.

I really must get to my oxygen now. I’m starting to wheeze.