Purgatory-the risks of teaching it to new Catholics

[ReadTheBible]

1 Corinthians says nothing about believers suffering the temporal consequences for their sins in purgatory. Their works are burned. It doesn’t refer to the consequence of sin, but of the reward for service. The issue is not sin and its punishment but instead service and its reward.The “loss” is loss of reward for not having served Jesus. The “fire” does not purge an individual or their soul from sin but rather serves to reveal or disclose the quality of one’s works. Purgatory is supposed to sanctify and change the soul of the believer to make him fit for heaven.

Paul often spoke about the Day of the Lord. The entire text in 1 Corinthians 10-15 is speaking about judgement day. Look at verse 13 “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it”

It’s a single day, judgement day.

 

[nogames]

Usagi:

You purport to begin with a concern that teaching purgatory to new Catholics is “risky” — perhaps suggesting (quite rightly) that it is easy to explain poorly or misunderstand … but in the end you have revealed that you believe the teaching to be false. So, y’know, thanks and all, but we’ll just keep on teaching the Faith our way.

Yes, I pointed out quite a while up-thread that he seemed to have begun this thread with deception. Oddly enough, he never responded to that.

I have given you no reason to judge me. I often ignore posts that seem to be intended to provoke. I don’t think that your judgment of me is worth responding to. You can do better!

 

[nogames]

nogames:

steve-b:

click on the link “purgation” that was given

I clicked it. What is it in this passage that makes you convinced that it is about purgatory, and what is it telling us is to be purged out of us?

What is not clear?

A person on the Day, (the day they die) will go through fire, but will be saved but only as one escaping through the fire. All the garbage will be burned up causing suffering, and only the good remains. That describes purification.

What, in your opinion is being “purified” in this passage? I’ll cut and paste the passage (1 Cor. 3:10-15) here:

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Wood, hay, and straw get purified by fire? Or are you saying that wood, straw, and hay represent people burning in hell?

 

[angel12]

In other words, you just don’t want to address the fact that you began with deception. You could have done better!

BTW, that’s an observation, not a judgment. There’s a difference.

 

[nogames]

In other words, you just don’t want to address the fact that you began with deception. You could have done better!

BTW, that’s an observation, not a judgment. There’s a difference.

By labeling your judgment of me “an observation”, you have ended up in exactly the same place, with the same attitude and the same conclusion. Different label; same apparent need to judge. Are you just trying to change the subject?

 

[angel12]

You’re the one trying to change the subject. Not a very good try, mind you, but an obvious one. You fooled us into thinking your original question was sincere, but not for long.

 

[nogames]

You’re the one trying to change the subject. Not a very good try, mind you, but an obvious one. You fooled us into thinking your original question was sincere, but not for long.

Let’s stop with the needless accusations and get back to the topic of purgatory.

 

[Usagi]

No, the wood, hay, and straw are the unworthy works of the believer, built on the foundation of their salvation by Jesus. The believer is purified, being left only with the worthy works (performed under grace, of course) that were built on the foundation of salvation. Salvation remains, but the believer who has things “burned up” suffers loss like one escaping from a house fire.

 

[Usagi]

There is no purgatory. No human will enter heaven based on good deeds.
There is no amount of good works one can do to attain heaven. Heaven is attained only by the wonderful grace of God. It is his gift, if a human obeys his laws and believes in Jesus.

Both I and the entire Catholic Church agree with everything you just said, except for that first sentence, which seems unconnected to the rest.

 

[nogames]

No, the wood, hay, and straw are the unworthy works of the believer, built on the foundation of their salvation by Jesus. The believer is purified, being left only with the worthy works (performed under grace, of course) that were built on the foundation of salvation. Salvation remains, but the believer who has things “burned up” suffers loss like one escaping from a house fire.

Where is this passage telling us that the believer is purified by the fire? Do you think that WORKS “revealed with fire” means, “PEOPLE purified with fire”? Is the “testing” of each person’s work the same as the “purging of sinful tendencies” from each person?

1 Cor. 3:13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.

 

[anon65111186]

1. No sin can exist in heaven
2. According to the bible and the teaching of the apostles and the early Christians, there is purification after death
3. This purification involves pain or suffering of a kind
4. God helps those being purified, and so can the prayers of those on earth
5. Jews were the first to believe in purgatory (2 Maccabees and other books), though they didn’t use that Latin name for it
6. Modern Jews believe in purgatory, but don’t use the name
7. Eastern Orthodox also believe in purgatory
8. Protestants are the only Christians that deny purgatory
9. Indulgences for purgatory, or any indulgences were never sold
10. Purgatory doesn’t have time like here on earth
11. There is pain in the afterlife until the New Jerusalem, and the passing of heaven and earth
12. All our bad life’s works will go up in flames, and we will only escape into heaven via flames, according to St. Paul. All our bad stuff is like a burning building, purgatory is a “get out of the flames if you want to go to heaven” thing!

It is a fact that there is sin this side of heaven, but no sin in heaven, so when does the purification happen Protestants?

 

[edtaylor51]

What is there to hide? Anyone can look it up on Wikipedia.

 

[steve-b]

1 Corinthians says nothing about believers suffering the temporal consequences for their sins in purgatory. Their works are burned. It doesn’t refer to the consequence of sin, but of the reward for service. The issue is not sin and its punishment but instead service and its reward.The “loss” is loss of reward for not having served Jesus. The “fire” does not purge an individual or their soul from sin but rather serves to reveal or disclose the quality of one’s works. Purgatory is supposed to sanctify and change the soul of the believer to make him fit for heaven.

Fire most certainly purifies. You create distinctions when/where there is no difference.

ReadTheBible:

Paul often spoke about the Day of the Lord. The entire text in 1 Corinthians 10-15 is speaking about judgement day. Look at verse 13 “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it”

It’s a single day, judgement day.

Guess what? The day you die is judgement Day. You will know exactly where you will be spending eternity on the Day you die because this life is over, and eternity begins on that day…

 

[Pup7]

The TITLE of this thread should’ve been a dead giveaway that sincerity wasn’t the plan here.

 

[steve-b]

There is no purgatory.

Says who

ReadTheBible:

No human will enter heaven based on good deeds. There is no amount of good works one can do to attain heaven.

Jesus has the final word. He says Good works play HUGE in our salvation

ReadTheBible:

Heaven is attained only by the wonderful grace of God. It is his gift, if a human obeys his laws and believes in Jesus.

All those who are separated from His Church, are disobedient to His law of perfect unity, and therefore by their willful disobedience, show their lack of belief in Him.

ReadTheBible:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The reason you leave out VS 10, is because it destroys your whole argument.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Since

1. God created us for good works
2. Good works He prepared in advance for us to do

Guess what happens to those who don’t do them? God puts THEM on the left with the goats for Hell. Good works play HUGE in our salvation

ReadTheBible:

11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The apostle Paul didn’t say God’s grace shall be given to the believers only if you believe and go through torment after the physical death of the body. That’s just silly.

All humans who have lived remain dead except 3, Jesus, Enoch, and Elijah. The dead will remain dead until Jesus returns.

you’re appearing to confuse “good works” and “works of law”

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

nogames:

steve-b:

click on the link “purgation” that was given

I clicked it. What is it in this passage that makes you convinced that it is about purgatory, and what is it telling us is to be purged out of us?

What is not clear?

A person on the Day, (the day they die) will go through fire, but will be saved but only as one escaping through the fire. All the garbage will be burned up causing suffering, and only the good remains. That describes purification.

What, in your opinion is being “purified” in this passage? I’ll cut and paste the passage (1 Cor. 3:10-15) here:

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

All this happens on “the Day” one dies. In this case the one going through this “will be saved” after going through this, but only as one escaping through the flames.

nogames:

Wood, hay, and straw get purified by fire? Or are you saying that wood, straw, and hay represent people burning in hell?

People “on the Day” who are going to hell

don’t go through purgation

Purgatory is only for those souls who are saved, and after the purgation process takes place, they go to heaven.

Souls who die in mortal sin, go straight to hell

 

[nogames]

A person on the Day, (the day they die) will go through fire, but will be saved but only as one escaping through the fire. All the garbage will be burned up causing suffering, and only the good remains. That describes purification.

According to the bible, that describes the testing of our works and not any sort of purification. But if our sinful works are something that God wants to burn out of us to make us worthy of heaven, why does purgation only “work” for non-mortal sins?

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

A person on the Day, (the day they die) will go through fire, but will be saved but only as one escaping through the fire. All the garbage will be burned up causing suffering, and only the good remains. That describes purification.

According to the bible, that describes the testing of our works and not any sort of purification.

According to the bible, assuming one doesn’t die in mortal sin, all that is unworthy in a soul, is ultimately purged away. Thereby one is purified.

nogames:

But if our sinful works are something that God wants to burn out of us to make us worthy of heaven, why does purgation only “work” for non-mortal sins?

Because by definition, one who dies in mortal sin, goes to hell.

examples: note the consequences

Titus 3:10-11 Reject a heretical (αἱρετικὸν )man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
Ephesians 5:3-5 fornication, covetousness……5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Hebrews 10:23-27 missing Eucharist deliberately on Sunday, no sacrifice for sin for THEM but a fiery judgement that consumes the adversaries of God.
Galatians 5: 19 - 21 sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions (διχοστασίαι ) factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, will not inherit heaven
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 no sexually immoral (πόρνοι ), nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ( ἀρσενοκοῖται ), 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
2 Thes 1: 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction…

 

[Seagull]

Harmful ?

Lol - I’d say 'more of a deterrent ’

 

[ReadTheBible]

“Guess what? The day you die is judgement Day. You will know exactly where you will be spending eternity on the Day you die because this life is over, and eternity begins on that day…”

Not according to the bible.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Job14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Jesus plainly says the dead are in a state of sleep even to his disciples.

John 11: 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.