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NightRider
Guest
If I find out I’ll let ya know! 
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mayra_hart
Guest
The Last Things: Judgment, Heaven, Hell and Purgat Fr. John Corapi, SOLT
2/9/200
The particular judgment is that judgment which comes immediately upon death. “Each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith” (#1021). As the Catechism reminds us, and it is defined teaching, not optional: Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven–through a purification (purgatory) or immediately–or immediate and everlasting damnation (Hell) (#1022).
This statement of our faith is clear and is not to be nuanced into oblivion. Every soul ultimately ends in heaven or hell. How we live here and now determines how we shall live forever. The possibility of sinning seriously (mortal sin) is a terrifying reality. If we die without repenting, hell is the result. We do not like to think of this, much less speak of it, but it is necessary to do so. Mercy is for now; judgment is for later. We must accept God’s mercy now through repentance and the sacrament of reconciliation while there is still time.
According to the Catechism, “Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified (with no need of purgatory) live for ever with Christ”(Heaven) (#1023). Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness. Heaven is what we are made for. Anything less is a catastrophe, for the only definitive failure in a human life is the loss of eternal salvation. The only definitive success in a human life is sanctification and, ultimately, heaven. The way we live must reflect this most basic and compelling of truths.
Purgatory is the final purification of a person who is on their way to heaven. Only the truly pure and perfected in grace can see God face to face. If we don’t achieve the perfection of charity on this earth the mercy of God provides for us a place of final purification. This is purgatory, and it is a doctrine of the faith. “The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent” (#1031). The church’s teaching is based upon certain texts of Scripture such as 2 Maccabees 12:46, remembering that only the church’s magisterium has the authority to authentically interpret Scripture, not any individual expressing what they think is “plausible.”
2/9/200
The particular judgment is that judgment which comes immediately upon death. “Each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith” (#1021). As the Catechism reminds us, and it is defined teaching, not optional: Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven–through a purification (purgatory) or immediately–or immediate and everlasting damnation (Hell) (#1022).
This statement of our faith is clear and is not to be nuanced into oblivion. Every soul ultimately ends in heaven or hell. How we live here and now determines how we shall live forever. The possibility of sinning seriously (mortal sin) is a terrifying reality. If we die without repenting, hell is the result. We do not like to think of this, much less speak of it, but it is necessary to do so. Mercy is for now; judgment is for later. We must accept God’s mercy now through repentance and the sacrament of reconciliation while there is still time.
According to the Catechism, “Those who die in God’s grace and friendship and are perfectly purified (with no need of purgatory) live for ever with Christ”(Heaven) (#1023). Heaven is the ultimate end and fulfillment of the deepest human longings, the state of supreme, definitive happiness. Heaven is what we are made for. Anything less is a catastrophe, for the only definitive failure in a human life is the loss of eternal salvation. The only definitive success in a human life is sanctification and, ultimately, heaven. The way we live must reflect this most basic and compelling of truths.
Purgatory is the final purification of a person who is on their way to heaven. Only the truly pure and perfected in grace can see God face to face. If we don’t achieve the perfection of charity on this earth the mercy of God provides for us a place of final purification. This is purgatory, and it is a doctrine of the faith. “The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent” (#1031). The church’s teaching is based upon certain texts of Scripture such as 2 Maccabees 12:46, remembering that only the church’s magisterium has the authority to authentically interpret Scripture, not any individual expressing what they think is “plausible.”
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puzzleannie
Guest
this entire post is excellent, and extremely important to Catholic understanding of the entire doctrine of praying for the dead and its roots in Judaism. Since you hare so knowledgeable can explain this custom. Having lived for many years on Cleveland’s east side in an area which has always been predominantly Jewish, I am familiar with the custom of “sitting Shiva”, this is when neighbors would be able to visit and comfort the family and pay their respects, since burials usually take place within 24 or 48 hours and there is not the usual funeral home visitation. can you explain that custom and its purpose.
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Matt16_18
Guest
Here is a link to the article that I quoted. I believe David Techner answers your question.
The Jewish Funeral–A Celebration of Life
By David Techner
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joehar
Guest
Purgatory, part II
Does God’s Word teach about purgatory? There is no mention of purgatory in the 66 books of the Bible, and since the orthodox biblical view of forgiveness assures redeemed sinners that their sins have all been paid in Christ, the doctrine of purgatory is rejected by Protestants as an erroneous addition to the Bible. Furthermore, we believe that it has been created by the church out of virtual necessity, as its view of the inadequacy of Christ’s death demands such a doctrine.
This doctrine simply fits with Catholicism’s whole system of justification by faith plus works – a keystone of Catholic theology. There is no possible way to reconcile Catholic teaching with Protestant teaching or the Bible on this point. Purgatory is part of a false gospel.
Does God’s Word teach about purgatory? There is no mention of purgatory in the 66 books of the Bible, and since the orthodox biblical view of forgiveness assures redeemed sinners that their sins have all been paid in Christ, the doctrine of purgatory is rejected by Protestants as an erroneous addition to the Bible. Furthermore, we believe that it has been created by the church out of virtual necessity, as its view of the inadequacy of Christ’s death demands such a doctrine.
This doctrine simply fits with Catholicism’s whole system of justification by faith plus works – a keystone of Catholic theology. There is no possible way to reconcile Catholic teaching with Protestant teaching or the Bible on this point. Purgatory is part of a false gospel.
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RNRobert
Guest
There’s no mention of the “Trinity” or “incarnation” in the Bible either, so why haven’t Protestants thrown out those concepts? BTW, there are 72 books to the Bible.
The Catholic Church does not regard Christ’s death as inadequate to pay for our sins. Rather, it is our inadequacy of responding to God’s grace. God wants to MAKE us holy, not simply cover up our sins like snow covered dunghills (to use Luther’s analogy). However, many times in our life we resist God’s grace. The Bible itself bears witness to this. **So he was not able to perform any mighty deed there, apart from curing a few sick people by laying his hands on them **(Luke 6:5-6). The Gospels also record how Jesus was able to cure the man born blind but could not cure the spiritual blindness of the Pharisees (John 9).
To this I would reply with a big resounding
YES!!!
However, it is the Protestant theology that it is in error. If you read the Gospels carefully, you will notice it is what one DOES, not what one SAYS, that accomplishes salvation. Jesus tells his followers more than once:
**Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. **Matthew, 7:21
Why do you call me. 'Lord**, Lord,’ but don’t do what I command? **Luke 6:46
In Matthew 25, Jesus tells two parables (the Parable of the Talents and the Parable of the Sheep and Goats) that clearly indicate salvation is based on what one did or didn’t do in one’s life, not on whether they uttered a ‘sinner’s prayer’ (something which itself is nowhere in the Bible).
As James writes, Faith without works is dead (2:26) and he backs it up with examples of those who were justified by faith AND works. Of course, it isn’t surprising that Martin Luther called it “an epistle of straw,” since it contradicted his pet theory.
Even Paul said as much when he told King Agrippa that he “preached the need to repent and turn to God, and to do works giving evidence of repentence.” Acts 26:20
This is one of the primary reasons I abandoned Protestantism for the Catholic Church.
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Church_Militant
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Exalt
Guest
Wow, I can’t believe that so many people voted that there were real fires in purgatory. That’s so strange. Our bodies are not going to go to purgatory, just our souls. Souls wouldn’t be affected by fire.
Purgatory as being “firey” is just a metaphor for the deep cleansing that goes on. After you die, you are still somewhat sinful. However, those in Heaven do not have even the slight hint of sin. So, there must be some period of healing and cleansing.
My youth minister said he always envisioned that, in purgatory, he and Jesus would sit down and talk about every little problem and, together, they would work through it. An intersting idea…
Purgatory as being “firey” is just a metaphor for the deep cleansing that goes on. After you die, you are still somewhat sinful. However, those in Heaven do not have even the slight hint of sin. So, there must be some period of healing and cleansing.
My youth minister said he always envisioned that, in purgatory, he and Jesus would sit down and talk about every little problem and, together, they would work through it. An intersting idea…
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CJE
Guest
No where is Purgatory described. I do believe that we are purified in Purgatory. There we will lose all our attachment to this world.
I believe that Purgatory is a gift from our Lord and I am very thankful that it is there.
As for the length of time, I have no idea. Because God exists outside of time, I believe that Purgatory and ones experience in Purgatory will be outside of time as well. Remember we are there to lose all attachments to this world.
As for the fires, again I do not know. I know that we will be purified. I know that it will involve some sort of pain, either physical or emotional or both. But when you look at what lies beyound Purgation, it is definitely worth it!
God Bless
I believe that Purgatory is a gift from our Lord and I am very thankful that it is there.
As for the length of time, I have no idea. Because God exists outside of time, I believe that Purgatory and ones experience in Purgatory will be outside of time as well. Remember we are there to lose all attachments to this world.
As for the fires, again I do not know. I know that we will be purified. I know that it will involve some sort of pain, either physical or emotional or both. But when you look at what lies beyound Purgation, it is definitely worth it!
God Bless
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RNRobert
Guest
Sometime last month I was reading the daily Scripture reading and came across this:As for the fires, again I do not know. I know that we will be purified. I know that it will involve some sort of pain, either physical or emotional or both. But when you look at what lies beyound Purgation, it is definitely worth it!
When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of burning (Isaiah 4:4, RSV).
Purification through fire is a common theme in Scripture.
John the Baptist told his listeners that Jesus would baptize “with the Spirit and with fire” (Matthew 3:11).
St. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 that our works will be tested with fire.
As Scott Hahn writes in Rome Sweet Home, “There’s the fire of hell, but then there’s and infinitely hotter fire in heaven; it’s God himself.” As Scripture confirms: Our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29; see also Deuteronomy 4:24).
St Peter tells us to endure our trials “so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:7).
I think this explains Purgatory the best: as a refiner’s fire that burns off all the dross of sin and self-love so that our souls are pure. Of course, the better we endure our trials and strive for holiness while alive, the less purgation we will have to undergo before entering heaven.
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BibleReader
Guest
I think discussion about whether Purgatory is a “condition” or a “place” is not-very-important semantics. I think that the folks in Purgatory, having been enlightened by the Particular and General Judgment, will be aware that what they are enduring is not what the Heaven-bound and Hell-bound are enduring; they will be aware that they deserve what they are getting; they will be aware that ultimately they are Heaven-bound; and so they will be happy, while they suffer.
About 10 years ago I was robbed at gunpoint. When it seemed to me that the robber was about to kill me, with a blast from the shotgun aimed at my neck, I grabbed the barrel and tried to pull it out of his hands and throw the gun away. The robber managed to wrestle the shotgun out of my hands and instead of decapitating me with a shot to the neck he smashed me in the face with the gun barrel. As I had blood running down my face, I smiled and was happy, because the worse thing – decapitation with a shotgun blast – did not occur.
I think that the folks in Purgatory will be more happy than sad, because the worse thing, Hell, did not occur.
About 10 years ago I was robbed at gunpoint. When it seemed to me that the robber was about to kill me, with a blast from the shotgun aimed at my neck, I grabbed the barrel and tried to pull it out of his hands and throw the gun away. The robber managed to wrestle the shotgun out of my hands and instead of decapitating me with a shot to the neck he smashed me in the face with the gun barrel. As I had blood running down my face, I smiled and was happy, because the worse thing – decapitation with a shotgun blast – did not occur.
I think that the folks in Purgatory will be more happy than sad, because the worse thing, Hell, did not occur.
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
I’m not comfortable describing purgatory as a physical place like work or home, but process has gotta happen someplace that isn’t hell or heaven. Perhaps it’s a “place” and a process that are one in the same.
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Angainor
Guest
I might be the only Lutheran that believes in something like Purgatory. Maybe it is CS Lewis’ influence.
I believe in a place similar to Purgatory à la “The Great Divorce”.
I do not believe Purgatory is “after-school detention”, a place we must go for a while before we are allowed into heaven.
I get a feeling that if you were to transplant me the way I am right now and put me into heaven, I would not quite fit in. I might not be entirely comfotable there. I think there probably is some place where I can grow further and become someone who fits into heaven.
I believe in a place similar to Purgatory à la “The Great Divorce”.
I do not believe Purgatory is “after-school detention”, a place we must go for a while before we are allowed into heaven.
I get a feeling that if you were to transplant me the way I am right now and put me into heaven, I would not quite fit in. I might not be entirely comfotable there. I think there probably is some place where I can grow further and become someone who fits into heaven.
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Genesis315
Guest
What’s the difference between going someplace to “grow” before you go to Heaven and the “after-school detention” scenario?
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Angainor
Guest
“After-school detention” would be if somewone was sent to Purgatory (where it is unpleasant) for a while as a simple punishment for the sins commited on earth.What’s the difference between going someplace to “grow” before you go to Heaven and the “after-school detention” scenario?
Humans deserve eternal damnation for their sins, so I don’t think the “after-school detention” model fits.
I don’t have a solid idea of what Purgatory might be like, but my current view goes something like this, which I must admit, is very much influenced by CS Lewis’ The Great Divorce: God will try to get everybody to grow to the point where they belong in heaven, and He will keep trying as long as there is something good left inside that person. Some people will be so far gone that there is nothing good left. Those will condemned to Hell.
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Genesis315
Guest
Angainor said:
Ahh, I get it now. Couldn’t that be kind of like the Catholic view? We think Purgatory prepares us for Heaven. It purifies our souls. I guess our view is that process is painful, while in your view it would not be. And you could still go either way in your view, whereas we have nowhere to go but heaven from there. Is that a fair understanding?
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Angainor
Guest
No, I don’t think it is necessarily pain-free. I just don’t think the pain would be simply punishment for punishment’s sake. If God just wanted to punish us, he would give us the punishment we deserve, which is eternal.
To tell you the truth, I don’t really know much about Catholicism’s view of Purgatory. My only real source of information was Lewis’ book.
Could someone, once in Purgatory, go either way? I’m not sure. It could be, that when someone dies with something good in their being that God can work with, God will eventually be able to grow that into something worthy of heaven. And if someone dies completely lost, then there would be nothing God could do.
Then again, someone might still have the freewill to rebel and reject God, even in Purgatory.
That is not something I think would be productive to dwell on. I will just pray that I will always trust in God, in this world and the next.
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Ahimsa
Guest
I see purgatory as a process that might take place either in the spiritual world or in the phenomenon of reincarnation.
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Genesis315
Guest
Here’s a good way I like to think of Purgatory. Have you ever poured hydrogen peroxide on a cut? It basically kills all the bacteria and stuff so the cut doesn’t get infected. It basically purifies that little bit of flesh. It also stings a lot! Pergatorial fire is basically hydrogen peroxide for the soul. Any traces of sin still in our living soul are removed, but the process is gonna hurt! That way, no contaminants (tracs of sin/evil) go into heaven. Does that analogy make sense?
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_Joshua
Guest
I believe the greatest pain will be longing to be united with God.
I read somewhere that Our Lady said, that it would be better to spend 15 years on earth suffering, than 15 minutes in purgatory.
It may be a spiritual fire, who knows, but will know if I’m fortunate enough to even get there.
People often wonder since the body isn’t there how can we feel pain.
Well I’ve heard of fantom pains, where someone loses a limb, but still feel pain in it.
So maybe although being seperated from the body, we still have the sensation of being united to it, just like the fantom pains.
Ok just me ranting
ok I’ll go and have a lie down
God have mercy on me a sinner.
I read somewhere that Our Lady said, that it would be better to spend 15 years on earth suffering, than 15 minutes in purgatory.
It may be a spiritual fire, who knows, but will know if I’m fortunate enough to even get there.
People often wonder since the body isn’t there how can we feel pain.
Well I’ve heard of fantom pains, where someone loses a limb, but still feel pain in it.
So maybe although being seperated from the body, we still have the sensation of being united to it, just like the fantom pains.
Ok just me ranting
ok I’ll go and have a lie down God have mercy on me a sinner.
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