Purgatory view

[pnewton]

kepha1,

I can see how you equate reality TV with purgatory. I personally usually think of hell when I think of reality shows.

Seriously, that was a good and a unique analogy and I will remember it.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

kepha1:

Congratulations!!! You’ve won an EXTREME MAKEOVER!!!”

The extreme makeover here is the doctrine of purgatory. Catholics before the 1960s would not recognise this type of extreme makeover purgatory.

But in many ways it is encouraging to see the fluid comprehension among modern Catholics when they speak of purgatory. Things are changing. The doctrine seems to be in a state of flux. Eventually, like the doctrine of Limbo, it will find its rightful place. I believe that God is nudging you in the right direction. Alleluia! This is great news for those who pray for the unity of Christendom.

 

[kepha1]

Aw shucks! Thanks guys! Yes, it’s pure analogy. The TV show makes no mention of the soul whatsoever. But as a student apologist, I am striving to reveal things in terms that others can understand, rather than dry theology. And I don’t even have a TV!

kepha1

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

kepha1:

Aw shucks! Thanks guys! Kepha1

Dear Kepha,

I don’t know if you know that I am Orthodox, and so you are not locking horns here with a Catholic priest but with one of the “separated brethren.”

---

“The truth will make you odd.”
Flannery O’Connor

---

 

[francisca]

I found Paul’s letter to the Hebrews : it says God is a “consuming fire”

Hebrews 12:29
for our God is a consuming fire.

These verses say the same thing.

Deuteronomy 4:24
"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 9:3
Isaiah 29:6
Isaiah 30:27
Isaiah 30:30
Isaiah 33:14
Exodus 24:17

So I’m wondering if heaven, hell, and purgatory are all of the same fire, that is God’s fire of Love = heaven, God’s fire of Anger = hell, and God’s fire of longing for His love = purgatory… so to say that the same Fire will consume all man but according to each state…???

This teaching about heaven hell and purgatory is too ‘high’ for us to figure it out.

God bless

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

francisca:

I found Paul’s letter to the Hebrews : it says God is a “consuming fire”

Dear Francisca,

If we left out the reference to purgatory, then you have expressed something very very close to the belief of the Orthodox Church.

If you like, take a look at an article “The River of Fire”
philthompson.net/pages/library/riveroffire.html

You’ll find it a bit polemical in its attitude towards the West, but concentrate on the teaching of God as fire.

I am amazed and I think it is wonderful to find Catholic people moving, in a kind of instinctive way, closer to the Orthodox churches of the East… and I suppose closer to their own Byzantine Catholic brothers and sisters.

 

[atenciom]

Fr Ambrose:

The whole Aristotelean view which sees the world as composed of substance and accidents and which is the foundation of the Transubstantiation theory has no credence today. It is a Greek philosophical concept which has outlived its usefulness.

The Orthodox, who usually refrain from trying to explain the great Mysteries of the faith in pagan philosophical terms, are spared the embarrassment of having to drop them when the philosophy becomes outmoded.

Fr Ambose,
This is irrelevant.

-ON EXPLAINING THINGS IN “PAGAN PHILOSOPHICAL TERMS”: Philosophical terms are not the private property of any religion (pagan or otherwise). Anyone can know that some of God’s truth can be found anywhere. Islam teaches that man should worship God. Simply because this teaching is found in Islam doesn’t mean that it is false or " has no credence today."

-ON THE ORTHODOX WHO HAVE SPARED THEMSELVES EMBARRASSMENT: Any attempt by theologians who happen to be catholic or orthodox to FULLY explain a mystery will amount to very little. Some people will try to explain it and we can give them an ‘A’ for trying as long as they have the discipline to know where reason stops. Some stop where they are supposed to and some push farther. You can smugly look back at these latter attempts and laugh at the folly of these supposed errors, but it shows only arrogance since many make mistakes (yourself included). You can boast all you want about how some orthodox theologians have refused to take foolish chances, it does little to help your (Fr Ambrose’s) case because, as Mat16 pointed out, you are only trying to distract us from the fact that you are committing the opposite sin: Not going far enough. (see below)

Atenciom:

You have no valid reason to write off the “praying for the dead” issue as a bonafide mystery. You must have a reason to write it off otherwise you insult the character of God.

Fr Ambrose:

Is this in the way of an infallible statement? Or is it merely a private opinion? Has it been decided in Rome that the Orthodox are insulting the character of God and have been doing so for 2 millennia?

It is neither. You need only to step outside of your bias to see it. First off, time does nothing to lessen the gravity of error. If commiting an error two hours ago is wrong, then two thousand years will not make it less wrong. (not that I believe that the orthodox have been commiting this error for this long.)

(See next post)

Martin

 

[atenciom]

Matt16_18:

Ignorance is not a virtue. It is possible to commit serious sin by refusing to accept what can be known by reason.

INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE

Lack of knowledge, either of fact of law, for which a person is not morally responsible. This may be due to the difficulty of the object of the knowledge, or scarcity of evidence, or insufficient time and talent in the person, or any other factor for which he is not culpable.

(Etym. Latin in, not + vincibilis, easily overcome: invincibilis.)

VINCIBLE IGNORANCE

Lack of culpable knowledge for which a person is morally responsible. It is culpable ignorance because it could be cleared up if the person used sufficient diligence.

One is said to be simply (but culpably) ignorant if one fails to make enough effort to learn what should be known; guilt then depends on one’s lack of effort to clear up the ignorance.

That person is crassly ignorant when the lack of knowledge is not directly willed but due to neglect or laziness; as a result the guilt is somewhat lessened, but in grave matters a person would still be gravely responsible.

A person has affected ignorance when one deliberately fosters it in order to not be inhibited in what one wants to do; such ignorance is gravely wrong when it concerns serious matters.

(Eytm. Latin vincibilis, easily overcome; ignorantia, want of knowledge or information.)

Pocket Catholic Dictionary, John A. Hardon, S.J
FrAmbrose:

Did anybody say that it was?

The Orthodox are also ignorant of the infallibility of the bishops of Rome, and ignorant also of the Roman Pontiff’s certainty of his immediate and universal jurisdiction, and ignorant of his claim that nobody can be saved unless they are in communion with him…

Ah, blessed ignorance!

Fr Ambrose,
You are also ignorant that 2+2=5 and that the sky is green. You cannot cite a list of (supposed) errors and then claim that you are relieved of your obligation to seek the truth. That charge is still laid squarely on your shoulders.

Allow me to make an analogy. If God has given us enough data to make it 50% of the way there, in order to come to the conclusion, we must exercise our faith and “jump” the other 50%. If, at some point, we start to exercise our reason by putting the God-given-data together with other God-given-data, we are able to squeeze out another 10%, then we only have to exercise and “jump” only the remaining 40%. But this jump is different. Because we have fine tuned our direction an additional 10% and “jumped” from the 60% mark, we will land in a slightly different place (i.e. come to different conclusion) than if we had jumped from the 50% mark. Unschooled people who only have access to 30% may make their 70% leaps of faith. If they come to the wrong conclusion, they are not culpable. But you, sir, are a learned man. You have no excuse. You are commiting the fallacy of “affected ignorance.”
What you are doing is refusing to use the capacity of reason that God gave you to combine the data together (which God gave you), to come to a more accurate conclusion. This is a serious error; more serious than you think. Perhaps earlier in your life, you had an excuse because you may have not known you needed to do this. But as you read this, you have an obligation to seek out the truth which is God.

Martin

 

[Matt16_18]

The Catholic Church knows about the existence of purgatory because God has divinely revealed that knowledge to his church. The existence of purgatory is part of the deposit of faith, and has always been taught by the true church, as can be verified by reading what the Church Fathers had to say about purgatory.

The Greek Church fell into error when she began to deny what the Fathers of the Church taught about purgatory, just as the Greek Church fell into heresy on many other occasions. It has often been the case that the surfacing of heresy becomes engine that drives the solemn definition of doctrine by the Magisteium of the Church. The solemn definition of Transubstantiation was brought about in part by the heretical Protestant doctrine of Consubstantiation. The solemn definitions of the Trinity were brought about by various christological heresies that arose in the Eastern Churches. The early Ecumenical Councils are full of examples that refute Fr. Ambrose’s claims about the alleged repugnance of the Eastern Church bishops to formally define the doctrines of Christianity by making use of existing philosophical concepts. Fr. Ambrose is talking sheer nonsense, and one only need a cursory knowledge of the Ecumenical Councils that the Orthodox accept as valid to see the absurdity of what Father Ambrose is saying about “pagan philosophy”.

At the Council of Florence, the issue of the schismatic Greek Church’s denial of purgatory was formally addressed. There is no need to revisit this issue; the Greek Orthodox Church will be able to end her schism with the Catholic Church when she accepts once again the historical Christian beliefs about the existence of purgatory.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

atenciom:

This is a serious error; more serious than you think. Perhaps earlier in your life, you had an excuse because you may have not known you needed to do this. But as you read this, you have an obligation to seek out the truth which is God.Martin

Dear Martin,

It is you who are really in error. You seem to be placing the human mind above the faith of the Church. This is symptomatic of what has led the West astray from the true faith. You reply too much on what Anselm of Canterbury called (God forgive him) “infallible reason.”

To answer your charges that I have an obligation to seek the truth. I have sought it and I have found it. The truth is a person. The truth is Jesus Christ. The truth is found in His Church, which is the Pillar and Ground of Truth. The certainty of truth is found only within His Church, and His Church does not teach purgatory.

This is enough for me. I cannot imagine imperilling my salvation by taking on board doctrine rejected by the Church. I accept the teaching of our Fathers and the teaching of the Apostles. For me, that kind of draws a line under it. I am not “seeking an excuse” not to believe in purgatory. It is enough that the Church does not believe it.

 

[John_Higgins]

Matt16_18:

the Greek Orthodox Church will be able to end her schism with the Catholic Church when she accepts once again the historical Christian beliefs about the existence of purgatory.

Stop throwing “heresy” charges around! The Holy Father doesn’t, why should you? Let’s look at the CCC:

838 “The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.” Those “who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.” With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."

And I’m sure Father Ambrose would tell you that purgatory is NOT what is keeping our two churches apart.

John

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Matt16_18:

The Greek Church fell into error when she began to deny what the Fathers of the Church taught about purgatory

Can you seriously imagine what is the most conservative Church in Christendom beginning to deny anything which had been a part of its faith. Would the old grannies allow it? Would the monks not rise up in rebellion? Would not a few bishops have been lynched if they tried to change the faith and remove purgatory from the doctrine of the Greek Church? My friend, you have no concept of the fierce conservatism of the Orthodox!!

The early Ecumenical Councils are full of examples that refute Fr. Ambrose’s claims about the alleged repugnance of the Eastern Church bishops to formally define the doctrines of Christianity by making use of existing philosophical concepts. Fr. Ambrose is talking sheer nonsense, and one only need a cursory knowledge of the Ecumenical Councils that the Orthodox accept as valid to see the absurdity of what Father Ambrose is saying about “pagan philosophy”.

I apologize for being unclear in previous posts. Yes, the Church adopted and adapted elements of pagan Greek philososophical terminology. However, you can still read treatises from the Church Fathers, proud to be Greeks themselves, but full of heavy warnings of the danger of “Hellenistic” thought to the Church. The Fathers knew the limits of the usefulness of Greek thought when it was used to explain Christian doctrine. I see the doctrine of transubstantiation as being in a different catergory. Thomas Aquinas took a pagan Greek concept from Aristotle about the nature of matter (divided in substance and accidents) and he employed it as **the **explanation of how the change takes place in the Eucharist. He seized upon a pagan Greek concept of matter and he used it too enthusiastically and too uncritically. The Church Fathers had never gone so far; when convenient they had adopted Greek terminology into Christian usage but they had not adopted Greek thought systems per se.

At the Council of Florence, the issue of the schismatic Greek Church’s denial of purgatory was formally addressed. There is no need to revisit this issue; the Greek Orthodox Church will be able to end her schism with the Catholic Church when she accepts once again the historical Christian beliefs about the existence of purgatory.

I can only repeat that, if they were historical, then you would still find them in the Orthodox Church. The fact that you do not speaks volumes. You can’t argue that the Orthodox have removed the belief because 1) you would have to offer evidence that at some time the Orthodox had accepted the belief and then removed it, and 2) the innate and overwhelming conservatism of the Orthodox would have never allowed its removal if it had ever been a part of our tradition.

 

[Matt16_18]

Fr Ambrose:

Can you seriously imagine what is the most conservative Church in Christendom beginning to deny anything which had been a part of its faith.

There was a time when just about every Greek bishop was an Arian heretic. Taking into account the history of the Greek bishops, yes, I can imagine that they could fall into error again.
Fr Ambrose:

I see the doctrine of transubstantiation as being in a different catergory. Thomas Aquinas took a pagan Greek concept from Aristotle about the nature of matter (divided in substance and accidents) and he employed it as **the **explanation of how the change takes place in the Eucharist. He seized upon a pagan Greek concept of matter and he used it too enthusiastically and too uncritically.

That should be debated on a different thread. It wouldn’t be to difficult to refute this argument.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Matt16_18:

There was a time when just about every Greek bishop was an Arian heretic. Taking into account the history of the Greek bishops, yes, I can imagine that they could fall into error again.

That is a bit of a two-edged argument!

Arianism was rampant all across the territory of the Church of Rome, in Italy, Spain, Germany, Northern Africa, Sicily.

As Saint Jerome wrote **“the whole world groaned and marvelled to find itself Arian”. **

Many Councils were held within the Roman Church which actually accepted Arianism - Arles, Milan, Ariminum (359). The Arians were so strong in the West that they banished the legitimate Pope Liberius off to somewhere in the East. There was the fear that the whole Church of Rome and all of Western Europe would become Arian… There were complaints from the Catholics in Italy that all their institutions were in the hands of the Arians.

My beloved patron Saint Ambrose spent a lot of his energy combatting the Arianism which was in his diocese of Milan. Arianism and Orthodoxy were in mortal combat in his diocese and throughout Italy.

 

[PilgrimJWT]

Purgatory is a firmly established Catholic teaching, although it is a bit of a strain to tie it to Biblical teaching. Except for generalities as to its purpose I don’t think the Church has any particular beliefs about it.

I have an easier time believing in Purgatory than in Heaven or Hell, actually. The world out there is seldom all black or all white, and a purgation of even the finest people would seem to be necessary for them to be able to stand the presence of an all-perfect God.

Since eternity is on the other side of time, I think Purgatory is out of a time dimension, same as Heaven or Hell are. But as a doctrine it seems to make perfect sense. To quote an unorthodox poet (who nevertheless had a fine understanding of the human condition. Grant yourself a degree if you can name the writer of this:

“There’s so much good in the worst of us,
And so much bad in the best of us,
It ill behooves the best of us,
To talk about the rest of us”

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

PilgrimJWT:

a purgation of even the finest people would seem to be necessary for them to be able to stand the presence of an all-perfect God.

It’s “logical” but I don’t buy into it. We, in all our sinfulness, stand every moment of our lives in the presence of an all-perfect God. We stand before Him, imperfect and unclean as we are, when we stand before the holy Chalice for Commuinion. He is more than pleased to come to us in Holy Communion. He comes and dwells in us in all our sinful state. He fills the very veins and reins of our bodies and souls with His divine presence. He does not seem to feel belittled or besmirched to dwell in us both bodily and spiritually. The Holy Spirit also dwells in us; our bodies are His temples. Why would He suddenly become so “coy” on the other side?

Since eternity is on the other side of time, I think Purgatory is out of a time dimension, same as Heaven or Hell are.

Does time exist in Heaven? I wrote a little about this earlier in this thread…

At the time of the Last Judgement a “new heaven and new earth” will come into existence. It makes sense that time will not cease at the Last Judgement but it will continue. Time is a part of God’s creation, as will be the new heaven and earth - these are created things which have a beginning in time… and it seems likely that they have a continuance in time.

Revelation 22:1-2

And he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as
crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
in the middle of its street. And on either side of the river
was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its
fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the
healing of the nations.

Notice the passing of time. The tree of life puts forth its fruit “every
month.”

Also from the Book of Revelation…St John says:

“And there was silence in heaven for the space of half an hour.”

I am not claiming infallibility on this

Grant yourself a degree if you can name the writer of this:

“There’s so much good in the worst of us,
And so much bad in the best of us,
It ill behooves the best of us,
To talk about the rest of us”

Woody Allen? No. Charles Allen ?

 

[Matt16_18]

**Cathechism of the Catholic Church

1031** The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.​

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Matt16_18:

Cathechism of the Catholic Church

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.​

So now there *IS *a purifying fire - a teaching to which I suppose Catholics must give assent since the Councils of Florence and Trent are infallible. They have been ratified by the Popes?

So shame, shame :tsktsk: on all the people here who have been leading me up the garden path and telling me that there is no purgatorial fire!!

 

[Annunciata]

Father Groeschel was on EWTN this evening talking about his ordeal with nearly dying in his recent accident. In the course of the conversation he was discussing Prugatory in the sense that when we are getting ready for the end or even think about dying we should not fear death. Now this is a new perspective I had only heard a few times…I still have the view of the “fiery place”… He spoke of it as a better place than here on earth because we know we are going to heaven…it’s just a matter of time… These were not his exact words, but how I understood it. It works for me. I like this view…

 

[Matt16_18]

From: A pocket prayer book for Orthodox Christians

**Trisagion Memorial Prayer for the departed **
(These prayers are customarily read for 40 days after the falling asleep of the servant of God.)

… Pardon, we beseech Thee, every transgression which may have been committed, whether by word or deed or thought. For there is no man who lives and does not commit a sin. Thou only art without sin, Thy righteousness is everlasting, and Thy word is the Truth. …