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Randy_Carson
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Whoa! Hold your horses there, pardner…
Are you saying that before the Cross of Christ, there WAS a third alternative to heaven or hell?
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Are you saying that before the Cross of Christ, there WAS a third alternative to heaven or hell?
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clmowry
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Actually, your continued ambiguity [which I can only presume to be intentional] leaves me unable to determine what postion you hold beyond the Catholic postion being wrong.
Chuck
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rinnie
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You didn’t say it, you are saying that Paul said it
Oh well then thats okay then
You didn’t say it, you are saying that Paul said it
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Techno2000
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paul_c
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JacobG
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The Bible stresses repeatedly that nothing but belief in Christ saves, penance is nowhere mentioned. Neither is purgatory. Everything in the Luke 16 parable points to the fact that our eternal destiny is fixed at death. Abraham told the rich man that died and went to hell that his fate was sealed and could not be changed. This excludes the possibility of repentance in the spirit world.
Peter said in Acts 8:20-22 : Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Nor can indulgences affect you in the hereafter. Salvation is a free gift of God. You either repent, and accept Christ and His finished work at Calvary or perish. God does not give a 3rd alternative.
Peter said in Acts 8:20-22 : Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Nor can indulgences affect you in the hereafter. Salvation is a free gift of God. You either repent, and accept Christ and His finished work at Calvary or perish. God does not give a 3rd alternative.
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JacobG
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1 Corinthians 3:15, a passage often cited in support of purgatory, is about works being evaluated. Paul uses the imagery of fire, but the works are burned, not the person. Since Paul writes that even a person without any good works can be saved, as long as he’s resting on the foundation of Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:11), the passage actually contradicts Catholic teaching about salvation and works rather than supporting Catholic teaching about purgatory.
Colossians 1:24 also has nothing to do with any purgatory. Christ alone suffered once and for all to atone for all sins (Isaiah 53:5, 53:10-11, Heb 1:3, Heb 9-10, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 John 1:7). Christians are released from sin through His blood (Rev 1:5). They don’t have a shackle remaining on one of their legs that has to be burned away in purgatory. Col 1:24 talks about Christ’s ministerial suffering, not His redemptive suffering.
Colossians 1:24 also has nothing to do with any purgatory. Christ alone suffered once and for all to atone for all sins (Isaiah 53:5, 53:10-11, Heb 1:3, Heb 9-10, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 John 1:7). Christians are released from sin through His blood (Rev 1:5). They don’t have a shackle remaining on one of their legs that has to be burned away in purgatory. Col 1:24 talks about Christ’s ministerial suffering, not His redemptive suffering.
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Thing
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Nobody said you can change your mind in purgatory; if you are in purgatory you are saved. But you cannot bring any sin with you into heaven. Where the sin is removed is called purgatory - from ‘purge’.
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Thing
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TheWay
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moondweller, I’m sure you agree with the following two biblical propositions. The first we also know from experience, that is, (1) Christians continue to sin after receiving the grace of salvation. The second we know from the bible, and that is, (2) there will be no sin in Heaven. If you agree with these two biblical concepts, the inevitable conclusion is that Purgatory exists. Purgatory is a purification after death that enables the person to enter Heaven. Since we still sin and since we will not sin in Heaven, per the bible, the unavoidable conclusion is that God effects a change in us that removes any existing condition with a tendency to sin. You say this is not a process but that doesn’t make it true. There is a linear sequence of events (a process) after death given the before and after states of existence of the person: a before state where the person can still sin (as they did in this life) and a state of existence after the purification where the person will no longer sin.
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paul_c
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Jacob, the bible NEVER says that nothing but belief saves. In fact, It says that Faith without works is dead (james 2) and it says that if you have faith enough to move mountains, but do not have love, you are nothing (1Corinthians 13). Furthermore, there are dozens of statements throughout the new Testament that say you must follow the commandments to enter eternal life (Matthew 19 is an example) and that you will be judged on how you love and what you do (Matthew 25, Romans 2 are two examples). Now Granted, it also says you DO need to believe to be saved, but that is not the only requirement.
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rinnie
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Where is that scripture?
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moondweller
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Did you read the Scriptural reference I provided: see Lk. 16:19-31? There we got a glimpse of two men after death prior to the cross of Christ: Lazarus and the rich man. At the time of death Lazarus was carried away by angels to “Abraham’s bosom” where he was comforted (16:22), while the rich man to a place of torment in Hades (16:23, not “Gehenna:” Hell - no man is yet in Hell).Whoa! Hold your horses there, pardner…
Are you saying that before the Cross of Christ, there WAS a third alternative to heaven or hell?
One of the doctrines of the cross is propitiation:Heb 2:17 “Therefore, He (God the Son) had to be made like His brethren in all things (the incarnation), so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people” (see also Rom. 3:25; 1 Jn. 2:2; 4:10).Propitiation may quite simply be defined as the offering of a gift or sacrifice of sufficient value in order that the wrath of another might be appeased. And the propitiated person is one whose wrath has been turned into pleasure by the offering of a gift so desirable that the offended one can no longer find reason to continue in anger.
Jesus Himself made propitiation for our sins through the offering of Himself on the cross, in our stead, and the shedding of His precious blood procured the forgiveness of all our sins. IOW, through His sacrificial death and the shedding of His blood God has been propitiated. His wrath has been turned into pleasure.
In the book of Hebrews we see that Jesus entered into the heavenly Temple through His own precious blood, the propitiatory gift:Heb 9:11-12 "But when Christ appeared {as} a high priest of the good things to come, {He entered} through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."As the propitiation for our sins it was necessary for Jesus, our High Priest, to precede us believing sinners (made saints now “in Him”) into the presence of God for, were men to go before the Gift had been offered and accepted, we would have been slain (see Heb. 10:19-20). Christ, as the propitiation for our sins, prepared the way for believers to enter immediately into presence of God; by the prayers of the saints still here on earth (Heb. 4:16), and, experientially, by all the redeemed who have died Eph. 4:8).
“Abraham’s bosom” is now empty, but that place in Hades where the rich man was taken remains occupied with the unredeemed, awaiting the final judgment of the “dead” (see Rev. 20:11-15).
Notice, Randy, that “Abraham’s bosom” was not a place of tormenting fire, but a place of great comfort for Lazarus. And Paul has revealed that for the true believer, this side of the cross, to be absent from the body is to be at home with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:6-9). After all, our citizenship is heaven (Phil. 3:20).
According to Divine Revelation there is no place, or ever was a place, nor ever will be a place, called Purgatory. Why? Because Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and God, through His precious blood, has been propitiated. Christ, through His sacrificial death, has opened wide the entrance into heaven for all the redeemed.
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Randy_Carson
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So, there are places other than heaven and hell.
According to your explanation, there is a place where those destined for hell are currently being warehoused, and a place where those destined for heaven awaited Jesus.
Am I right?
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moondweller
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Correct. Hades is still occupied but the redeemed now enter heaven. Hell is yet to be occupied. Scripture reveals nothing like a place Rome calls Purgatory. Nor should it. God dealt with all sins, once for all, at Calvary. Men receive all the salvific benefits of Christ’s sacrificial work at the time of personal aith in Him (Eph. 2:8-9). As Jesus said:John 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture” (cf. Jn. 14:6)The “door” is not Purgatory.
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rinnie
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IF you say hades is not hell, and it is not heaven What is it?
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paul_c
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You have not proven your thesis that God dealt with all sins, once and for all, at Calvary. Furthermore, you will not be able to prove it because it is not scriptural. You always quote Ephesians 2: 8-9 but never include verse 10 because it runs counter to your theology. This is merely deceiving yourself.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.
If you don’t do the Good works, you have not been saved. ’
St, Paul also saidin romans 2:
3 Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.
He’s clearly talking to believers here and he tells them that their sins will be counted against them.
And John says in chapter 15:
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
6 Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned
this clearly says that people who were in him (believers) but do not remain in him will be thrown inot the fire and burned
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Randy_Carson
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Never said it was.
Thanks for acknowledging that there is nothing unscriptural about the idea that another place besides heaven or hell (Gehenna) exists. Hades (or She’ol) exists also.
Next, Jesus has dealt with the sins we repent of…Purgatory is where He deals with the attachments we have to the things of this life. It is a final purification to achieve the holiness necessary to enter heaven—this is entirely different from the punishment of hell. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:
To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain. (CCC 1472)Unlike the damned, those in the state of purgatory have the joy of knowing that, upon purification, they will enter eternal life in heaven.
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moondweller
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Here’s your problem and the source of difficulty with your doctrine. What I acknowledge is Divinely supported and revealed in the theopneustos Scriptures. What you’re asserting has absolutely no Scriptural support or Divine revelation. The beliefs of true Christianity must be based on Divine revelation or it becomes corrupt. We must still heed the warning Paul wrote to the churches in the region of Galatia who started to deviate from the gospel of Divine grace that was delivered to them: “A little leaven leavens the whole lump” (Gal. 5:9).Heb 10:14 "For by ONE offering He has perfected For All TIME those who are sanctified."And Paul writes to the Corinthian believers:1 Cor 6:11 "Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."Catholic Purgatory serves no purpose for us who have been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. It’s totally nonsensical.
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clmowry
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I wish somebody would give me a “protestant verses in Red bible.”
Are these the only verses in these bibles?
It never seems to fail that the counter arguement to every “proof text” lies within the same chapter of the quoted verse, but some how it never manages to get itself presented, maybe not even read?
For example Hebrews 10:26-27 “If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
And 1 Cor 6:18-20 "Avoid immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the immoral person sins against his own body.
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore, glorify God in your body."
Chuck
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