purgatory

[adriancombe]

adriancombe;:

First: sanctification, in the thought of St. Paul, is not irreversible:

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Obviously, one who has trodden under foot the Son of God and considers His blood as unholy (common), was never personally sanctified, by faith, in the Son of God.

This is called assuming what you have been asked to prove (which you have not done yet), aka a circular argument. In other words, it is not even an argument - merely an unsupported statement.

You fail to understand the context of that verse and how the word sanctified is used.

Another unsupported statement. Moreover, and painfully obviously, the ‘context’ is the same as in **your ** post #321!:

Heb 10:10 “By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Patently, if the same word, hagiazo, is used in the same context, it means the same thing. Furthermore, the Greek word ephapax (G2178) , which your translation renders ‘once for all’, does not mean ‘once for all’. ‘One time’ or ‘all at once’, depending on the context, is a valid rendering of ephapax. Again, you need to look at how it is used in other passages:

Rom 6:10 For 3739 1063 in that he died 599 , he died 599 unto sin 266 once 2178: but 1161 in that 3739 he liveth 2198 , he liveth 2198 unto God 2316.

So, unless you are going to posit that Christ died irreversibly, logic forces you to abandon the impossible translation of ephapax as ‘once for all’; otherwise, you are denying the Resurrection.

 

[adriancombe]

Heb 10:14 “For by ONE offering He has perfected For All TIME those who are sanctified.”

Incorrect. As you have already been instructed, eis to dihnekes means “continually”.

 

[TheWay]

Here’s the Biblical response:1 Cor 6:9-11 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."At the beginning of the letter Paul calls them “saints,” not sinners. What’s described above are sinners. Sinners, such as the above will not inherit the kingdom of God. But no true believer is ever identified as a “sinner,” but a saint, having been credited God’s own righteousness through faith in Christ. Because “the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).

Only the righteous will enter heaven. But not those who have a righteousness of their own, but that which is through faith, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of FAITH (Phil. 3:9).

When God Himself credits His own righteousness to believers, there’s no need for a place like Catholic Purgatory. For this reason you can’t find it taught in the theopneustos Scriptures.

moondweller, you failed to address the fact that Christians continue to sin after we have received the grace of salvation and the fact that none of us will be sinning in Heaven. God effects a change in us after death which removes the possibility of sin in Heaven. I contend that Protestants, if they follow their theology to its logical conclusions, agree with the Catholic concept of Purgatory without realizing or admitting it.

Now let’s move on to what you wrote in your post. Paul says in 1 Corinthians. 1:2, “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints…” Yes, Christians are *called to be *saints. That is our purpose and our goal, but Paul doesn’t say that the Corinthians are already saints as of his writing.

Faith for Paul includes the fruits of the Spirit, or faith working in love. We agree that our righteousness comes from God on the basis of faith, but that does not mean that we are perfectly sanctified. Notice what Paul says several verses later in Philippians. 3:12: “Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.”

And herein lies the major problem with your theology. According to your theology, justification and sanctification are two separate and distinct things. According to your theology, sanctification is the result of salvation (or justification) but sanctification does not play a part in salvation. But according to Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, sanctification does play a role in our salvation: “But we must always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth."

 

[paul_c]

Here’s the Biblical response:1 Cor 6:9-11 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."At the beginning of the letter Paul calls them “saints,” not sinners. What’s described above are sinners. Sinners, such as the above will not inherit the kingdom of God. But no true believer is ever identified as a “sinner,” but a saint, having been credited God’s own righteousness through faith in Christ. Because “the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).

Only the righteous will enter heaven. But not those who have a righteousness of their own, but that which is through faith, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of FAITH (Phil. 3:9).

When God Himself credits His own righteousness to believers, there’s no need for a place like Catholic Purgatory. For this reason you can’t find it taught in the theopneustos Scriptures.

Moondweller, How clearly did Saint Peter recognize what people like you would do (2Peter 3: 10-18:

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out.
11 Since everything is to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought (you) to be, conducting yourselves in holiness and devotion,
12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved in flames and the elements melted by fire.
13 but according to his promise we await new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace.
15 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.
17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.
18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory now and to the day of eternity.

If you continue to read Corinithians beyond what you quoted you would find 3 chapters of admonishments on how to lead the Christian life followed by this quote in 1cor 9: 23-27:

23 All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it.
24 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win.
25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.
26 Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing.
27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified

You are fooling yourself when you pull selected quotes out of scripture to make points that are inconsistent with the context in which they are given. You are fooling no one here because all the Catholics on this board understand scripture in the context in which it was intended.

You are in fact distracted from the truth. Yes, if you were validly baptized, Jesus gave you new life. But you have to follow him in that new life or you will not be saved. Just as Paul says in 1Cor 9 above, you must persevere in the faith so that you are not disqualified for eternal life. Note, Peter says the same thing in his quote above, telling the faithful not to be found with any spot or blemish

 

[Randy_Carson]

Here’s the Biblical response:
1 Cor 6:9-11 "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
At the beginning of the letter Paul calls them “saints,” not sinners. What’s described above are sinners. Sinners, such as the above will not inherit the kingdom of God. But no true believer is ever identified as a “sinner,” but a saint, having been credited God’s own righteousness through faith in Christ. Because “the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness” (Rom. 4:5).

I disagree.

John wrote:

1 John 1:8-10
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

So, while John does not call his audience sinners explicitly, he tells them that they are sinners in no uncertain terms.

When God Himself credits His own righteousness to believers, there’s no need for a place like Catholic Purgatory. For this reason you can’t find it taught in the theopneustos Scriptures.

Moondweller-

You can’t find the Trinity taught explicitly in the scriptures, either.

You can’t find the hypostatic union of Jesus taught in the scriptures, either.

You can’t find the idea that Jesus had two wills - one human, one divine, in the scriptures, either.

You can’t find the idea that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle in the scriptures, either.

And, of course, you can’t find the canon of scripture itself in the scriptures, either.

Some things we know by Apostolic Tradition and the use of reason.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The problem is, Randy (and it’s been pointed out to you many times before), that passage in context is about WORKS and REWARDS, not the purging of sins. The fire there (which is figurative) is revelatory, not purgatorial. Those works which cannot be burned (figuratively, gold, silver, precious stones) receive reward. Those which do burn (figuratively, wood, hay, straw) - no reward.

Every true believer will go through the fiery judgment of his works. But the man who goes through the fiery judgment and receives no reward is yet saved because his salvation was never based on his works in the first place, but “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone. That’s what verse 15 is stating.

Admit it, there’s no Apostolic teaching on Catholic Purgatory. Purgatory is a post-Apostolic teaching of men.

Two questions:

1. Why would God destroy something that one of His sheep had labored to build?
2. Is the development of my own character a “work” that God will judge? In other words, will God judge whether I have put my own flesh to death through fasting, prayer, learning to control my tongue, my passions, averting my eyes from things that I should not see, etc?

And before you dismiss these things as “too Catholic”, let me remind you of Paul’s clear example:

1 Corinthians 9:25-27
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

 

[Roman_Army]

how do we know that this is true? how do we know that we released 1000 souls from purgatory? I recieved this as an answer to a earlier thread I posted about purgatory

St. Gertrude prayer for the souls in Purgatory - Eternal Father, I offer you the most precious blood of your Divine Son Jesus, in union with the masses said throughout the day, for all the holy souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, in my own home and in my family.

Each time you say this prayer, 1000 souls are released from Purgatory.

This falls under private revelation. It can be true or it can be false, the Church only judges whether or not it can be believed and practiced without it harming one’s Catholic Faith. Individual and specific private revelations like these including various visions, miracles, and apparitions of Christ, Mary, Angels, or Saints do not belong to the deposit of faith, they’re just intended to bring us to faith and the practice of virtue and piety within a specific time in history or in our own lives. They’re good and I would say that it is required to believe in the general principle that it is possible for such miracles, visions, spiritual messages, and apparitions to occur, though one is not required to accept each individual one.

Now, in my opinion, I do not subscribe to the idea that one simple prayer like this that takes only seconds to recite will release 1,000 souls from purgatory each time it is said. Perhaps it might be said that each day when one piously recites this prayer while in a state free from attachment from sin and after worthy reception of the Eucharist coupled together with all the piously celebrated masses throughout the world in which each prays for the faithful departed can indeed release thousands of souls from purgatory. But, one cannot know the precise number of souls released from purgatory. We must also remember that purgatory is intended for justice, it is where the faithful pay the temporal debt they have incurred from their sins. Every single sin we commit after baptism must be repaid to society, nature, and to God in some way, usually through acts of charity, fasting, almsgiving, prayer, mass, devotions, performing a Church approved indulgence, offering up one’s sufferings and uniting it with Christ, etc.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Quote (Originally by moondweller)—
The problem is, Randy (and it’s been pointed out to you many times before), that passage in context is about WORKS and REWARDS, not the purging of sins. The fire there (which is figurative) is revelatory, not purgatorial. Those works which cannot be burned (figuratively, gold, silver, precious stones) receive reward. Those which do burn (figuratively, wood, hay, straw) - no reward

.

I have tried to point this out to Randy as well…

The Trinity may not be explicitly taught in Scriptures, but the concept of it is clearly seen. And we find nothing that contradicts it. Purgatory is a false doctrine because of the overwhelming evidence that Christ purifies the sinner who turns to him and repents of their sins.1 John 1:7, 2:2 says Christ purifies the sinner who confesses directly to Him. Hebrews 9:22 tells us without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.This offering by Christ was sufficient, perfect and complete. There is no more offering sacrifice or work of atonement or satisfaction to be made for sin. For the roman catholic, the expiation of his sins involves a process of works that extends throughout his whole life and even after death. Any hope of trusting in Christ’s atonement is nullified by what he must personally do to atone or expiate his own sin. Hebrews 1:3 tells us that Christ effected man’s purgation from sin. Therefore, purgatory is unnecessary and clearly contradicts the Holy Scriptures. There are clear passages that say all believers in Christ enter into His holy presence upon death. Rev 14:13 for example says Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours. The Christian believer is given rest; not horrible suffering for purification. Paul said in 2 Corinthians, to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord.

That’s the Gospel, Randy. Its more than Christ has died, Christ is risen. The “good news” is that He died for you and paid your sin debt in full. But if you are trying to work and sweat and pay for it yourself, then you are believing in another gospel, which isn’t a gospel for there is only One True Gospel. You are trusting yourself and your church to get to heaven and not in Christ alone and His finished work at Calvary.

 

[yankee_drifter]

In the catholic catechism, it says under the topic of purgatory: Purgatory, as a good opportunity to clean up a bit before we enter God’s heaven, seems logically proper. After all, who of us would want to go from the dust of this earth before preparing a little before entering the very presence of the Lord God?

 

[PRmerger]

In the catholic catechism, it says under the topic of purgatory: Purgatory, as a good opportunity to clean up a bit before we enter God’s heaven, seems logically proper. After all, who of us would want to go from the dust of this earth before preparing a little before entering the very presence of the Lord God?

Do you have a paragraph number from the Catechism for this, yankee? The language used in your quote above seems quite pedestrian and not at all the language of the Catechism, so I’m a bit skeptical that you found that in there.

I think you found that elsewhere.

Nevertheless, I find nothing wrong with the statement. Wouldn’t you want to put on your wedding garments before you see your Beloved face to face? Don’t you want to take off your dirty shoes in the mud room before you enter the Mansion? Seems appropriate to me!

 

[Randy_Carson]

. The Trinity may not be explicitly taught in Scriptures, but the concept of it is clearly seen. And we find nothing that contradicts it.

Purgatory may not be explicitly taught in Scriptures, but the concept of it is clearly seen. And we find nothing that contradicts it.

You are not perfect now, you will not be perfect at the moment of your death, but you must be perfect before you enter heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

. Paul said in 2 Corinthians, to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord.

No, yankee. You have been told that by your pastor, and accepted it gullibly, but that is not what the verse says. It says he **prefers **to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. BIG difference between what you’ve added (or your pastor has added) to Scripture and what it actually says.

Also see the previous discussion (posts #200 on) on this. It’s already been established that Scripture does not say “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” THAT is another gospel, yankee!

 

[moondweller]

.

I have tried to point this out to Randy as well…

Yes. That’s why I contend that Purgatory is a doctrine rooted in unbelief.

The Trinity may not be explicitly taught in Scriptures, but the concept of it is clearly seen. And we find nothing that contradicts it. Purgatory is a false doctrine because of the overwhelming evidence that Christ purifies the sinner who turns to him and repents of their sins.

Yes! It’s what the cross is all about. The Apostolic message taken to the world was the cross of Christ, where He, once for all, “made purification of sins.” It’s a Divine message to be believed.

1 John 1:7, 2:2 says Christ purifies the sinner who confesses directly to Him.

Yes. John was writing to combat a form of Gnostic teaching infiltrating the church in his day. A teaching that denied even the idea of sin itself (1 Jn. 1:8) and that men are, in fact, sinners (1 Jn. 1:10).

Often even Protestants incorrectly interpret 1 Jn. 1:9 by applying that verse to believers meaning an on going experience for the forgiveness and cleansing of sins. But the Greek word translated “confess” in that passage is homologeo and means “to acknowledge.” When one acknowledges sins and, therefore, oneself a sinner (which would have been totally contrary to Gnostic teaching in that day), John here confirms that upon faith in Christ, He (God) is faithful and righteous to forgive us of our sins and cleans us from ALL unrighteousness. Nowhere does John (or any of the Apostles) teach us that men receive forgiveness and cleansing of sins upon confessing them. But rather upon believing:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Col 1:14 "…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."Upon belief in Christ the sinner is forever forgiven and cleansed of ALL unrighteousness. Even credited (reckoned, a as gift) the righteousness of God Himself, which is Divine justification (Rom. 3:24; 4:5; Phil. 3:9). Throughout Scripture forgiveness and cleansing of sins are always through sacrificial blood, not fire. Forgiven and cleansed is the true believer’s status before God - now in the risen Christ.

Catholic Purgatory simply cannot exist in light of the doctrinal teachings presented to us in the theopneustos Scriptures concerning Christ’s sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection as directly applied to the believer (e.g., Rom. 4:25 - 5:2). And for this reason alone it cannot be found in the Scriptures.

Hebrews 9:22 tells us without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.This offering by Christ was sufficient, perfect and complete. There is no more offering sacrifice or work of atonement or satisfaction to be made for sin. For the roman catholic, the expiation of his sins involves a process of works that extends throughout his whole life and even after death. Any hope of trusting in Christ’s atonement is nullified by what he must personally do to atone or expiate his own sin. Hebrews 1:3 tells us that Christ effected man’s purgation from sin. Therefore, purgatory is unnecessary and clearly contradicts the Holy Scriptures. There are clear passages that say all believers in Christ enter into His holy presence upon death. Rev 14:13 for example says Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours. The Christian believer is given rest; not horrible suffering for purification.

:yeah_me:Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."Catholic Purgatory denies this Christ glorifying revelation.

That’s the Gospel, Randy. Its more than Christ has died, Christ is risen.

Absolutely!! And it’s revealed that all true believers are no longer in Adam (in whom all men were made sinners), but now in the risen Christ (in whom all believers are made righteous, Rom. 5:19).

Isn’t it amazing the unity of our faith in Christ. Yet we don’t even go to the same church. This is the unity in Him that Christ prayed for in Jn. 17. Such unity is not to be mistaken for religious conformity, but our faith in Christ alone, and our new identity now in Him risen: “washed, sanctified and justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).

What more can be said on this subject? The believer’s Divinely revealed new status in the resurrected Christ is a matter of personal faith in God’s Word. One either believes it or not. That’s how God has ordained it.

Time for me to move on. Hope to see you on the forum. Your words were refreshing to my soul.

 

[moondweller]

Do you have a paragraph number from the Catechism for this, yankee? The language used in your quote above seems quite pedestrian and not at all the language of the Catechism, so I’m a bit skeptical that you found that in there.

I think you found that elsewhere.

**Nevertheless, I find nothing wrong with the statement. Wouldn’t you want to put on your wedding garments before you see your Beloved face to face? Don’t you want to take off your dirty shoes in the mud room before you enter the Mansion? Seems appropriate to me! **

Taking off one’s dirty shoes in “the mud room” might sound “appropriate” to the “pedestrian” mind, but is nowhere revealed by the Divine Mind. :tiphat:

 

[guanophore]

It is great to see you again MD. I have been missing you! There is a TULIP thread running that needs your help badly. You will find a disciple using the name of 2nd Adam who could very much use your guidance. anyway…

The problem is, (and it's been pointed out to you many times before), that passage in *context* is about WORKS and REWARDS, not the purging of sins.

We are in agreement that it is about works and rewards. Jesus and the Apostles are clear that we will be judged according to our works. The things that we DO arise from the attitudes of our hearts, which are not always in a state of purity before God. The "dead works’ or those that are not done in grace, create temporal penalties and consequences. It is these consequences that need to be purged or burned away. Everyone commits acts that are not pleasing to God, and these need to be purified from us because nothing unclean can enter heaven.

The fire there (which is *figurative*) is *revelatory*, not purgatorial.

It is clear from the context that both things are true. The fire (that which purifies) reveals and cleanses (burns away dross). I don’t think anyone is trying to say there are literal flames. “Purg” is the the Latin root to burn/purify. Purgatory is the state during which the soul is cleansed and made pure for heaven.

Those works which cannot be burned (figuratively, gold, silver, precious stones) receive reward. Those which do burn (figuratively, wood, hay, straw) - no reward.

This is because works that are not of God do not deserve reward, and the consequences of them make us unclean so that we cannot enter heaven.

Every true believer will go through the fiery judgment of his works. But the man who goes through the fiery judgment and receives no reward is yet saved because his salvation was never based on his works in the first place, but “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone. That’s what verse 15 is stating.

This is true, and Catholic. No one who is not saved by grace through faith has the advantage of purgatory.

Admit it, there’s no Apostolic teaching on Catholic Purgatory. Purgatory is a post-Apostolic teaching of men.

The term, Purgatory, being a Latin term is certainly a word, like Trinity, that came along in the Post Apostolic age. However, the Apostles taugth that nothing unclean can enter heaven. Therefore, we need more than to be “declared” clean. We need to actually be made clean. Anyone engaged in sanctification knows that the process of being made holy is not instantanteous.

 

[paul_c]

Yes. That’s why I contend that Purgatory is a doctrine rooted in unbelief.Yes! It’s what the cross is all about. The Apostolic message taken to the world was the cross of Christ, where He, once for all, “made purification of sins.” It’s a Divine message to be believed.Yes. John was writing to combat a form of Gnostic teaching infiltrating the church in his day. A teaching that denied even the idea of sin itself (1 Jn. 1:8) and that men are, in fact, sinners (1 Jn. 1:10).

Moondweller, both you and Yankee drifter are decieved. When you are baptized, you are born again in spirit and water. Your sins are forgiven, you gain the necessary graces to gain eternal life and you become a member of the church. However, you can denounce that membership, lose grace through sin and lose eternal life if you don’t do follow Jesus in loving God and Neighbor. That’s why you were given new life: to become like Christ. If you fail to do so, after gaining those Graces, you will be condemned. This is all scripturally supported. Starte with Romans 2: 1-8. You will be judged by what you do.

Often even Protestants incorrectly interpret 1 Jn. 1:9 by applying that verse to believers meaning an on going experience for the forgiveness and cleansing of sins. But the Greek word translated “confess” in that passage is homologeo and means “to acknowledge.” When one acknowledges sins and, therefore, oneself a sinner (which would have been totally contrary to Gnostic teaching in that day), John here confirms that upon faith in Christ, He (God) is faithful and righteous to forgive us of our sins and cleans us from ALL unrighteousness. Nowhere does John (or any of the Apostles) teach us that men receive forgiveness and cleansing of sins upon confessing them. But rather upon believing:Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

It is not surprising tha other Protestants interpret 1 John 1:9 to be about believers. John didn’t write to unbelievers… This is calling on believers to confess their sins. This is just another convoluted explanation you have concocted to try to justify your theology when it is clearly disputed by scripture.

Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”

Col 1:14 "…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."Upon belief in Christ the sinner is forever forgiven and cleansed of ALL unrighteousness. Even credited (reckoned, a as gift) the righteousness of God Himself, which is Divine justification (Rom. 3:24; 4:5; Phil. 3:9). Throughout Scripture forgiveness and cleansing of sins are always through sacrificial blood, not fire. Forgiven and cleansed is the true believer’s status before God - now in the risen Christ.

Catholic Purgatory simply cannot exist in light of the doctrinal teachings presented to us in the theopneustos Scriptures concerning Christ’s sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection as directly applied to the believer (e.g., Rom. 4:25 - 5:2). And for this reason alone it cannot be found in the Scriptures.:yeah_me:Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."Catholic Purgatory denies this Christ glorifying revelation.Absolutely!! And it’s revealed that all true believers are no longer in Adam (in whom all men were made sinners), but now in the risen Christ (in whom all believers are made righteous, Rom. 5:19).

This is what Romans 5:19 really says:
19 For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous
You have changed the scripture to support your own theology. who are you fooling?

Isn’t it amazing . the unity of our faith in Christ. Yet we don’t even go to the same church. This is the unity in Him that Christ prayed for in Jn. 17. Such unity is not to be mistaken for religious conformity, but our faith in Christ alone, and our new identity now in Him risen: “washed, sanctified and justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).

What more can be said on this subject? The believer’s Divinely revealed new status in the resurrected Christ is a matter of personal faith in God’s Word. One either believes it or not. That’s how God has ordained it.

Time for me to move on. Hope to see you on the forum. Your words were refreshing to my soul.

It must be very nice for you to hear one person agree with you, but that’s hardly the unity that Christ discussed. We have 1.1B Catholics and growing in unity on the full doctrine of the church under a single authority. compare that to what you are talking about.

The beleivers new status is not new at all if all he does is say he beleives and never lives the Christian life. give that some thought. Read James 2 again and maybe 1Corinthians 13 or Romans 2:1-8, or Matthew 19, or Matthew 25: 31-46. All of them describe the need to live the christian life to be saved. Faith without works is dead…

 

[guanophore]

.
The Trinity may not be explicitly taught in Scriptures, but the concept of it is clearly seen. And we find nothing that contradicts it.

If you really believe this, you have not had a stimulating discussion with a Mormon, or other Arian. In fact, if this were the case, 80 % of Christendom would not have fallen into Arianism in the early centuries.

. Purgatory is a false doctrine because of the overwhelming evidence that Christ purifies the sinner who turns to him and repents of their sins.1 John 1:7, 2:2 says Christ purifies the sinner who confesses directly to Him.

Actually, it is because of these things that it IS true. purification is what is referred to with the word “purgatory”. It comes from the Latin “to purify with fire”.

. Hebrews 9:22 tells us without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.This offering by Christ was sufficient, perfect and complete.

This is a true statment. This is why it is possible for us to be purified with fire.

. There is no more offering sacrifice or work of atonement or satisfaction to be made for sin.

Eternally, yes, but temporally there is. Sins create damage, and offerings offset this damage. In relationships it is called “making amends”. It is the healing that is caused by the damage of sin.

. For the roman catholic, the expiation of his sins involves a process of works that extends throughout his whole life and even after death.

It is clear that you do not undersand Catholic soteriology. Jesus has already made eternal satisfaction for our sins. This is applied to the individual in baptism, where we are washed, purified, and sanctified.

. ****Any hope of trusting in Christ’s atonement is nullified by what he must personally do to atone or expiate his own sin.

If the errors you promote were true, then this statement would logically follow. Fortunately, it is not the case.

. Hebrews 1:3 tells us that Christ effected man’s purgation from sin. Therefore, purgatory is unnecessary and clearly contradicts the Holy Scriptures.

Both things are true, yankee. It is Christ who purifies us,a nd it is possible because of His sacrifice.

. There are clear passages that say all believers in Christ enter into His holy presence upon death. Rev 14:13 for example says Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours.

This does not mean that they require no further purification prior to entering the holy of holies. God is not going to let snow covered dunghills into the gate.

. The Christian believer is given rest; not horrible suffering for purification. Paul said in 2 Corinthians, to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord.

You are assuming that God somehow abandons us when we are being purified for heaven. Why would you do that? did He not demonstrate in the fiery furnace that He would be present?

. Its more than Christ has died, Christ is risen. The “good news” is that He died for you and paid your sin debt in full.

Yes, this is why we benefit from the cleansing with fire.

. But if you are trying to work and sweat and pay for it yourself, then you are believing in another gospel, which isn’t a gospel for there is only One True Gospel. You are trusting yourself and your church to get to heaven and not in Christ alone and His finished work at Calvary.

His work is finished,but ours is not. We are commanded to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. As long as there is one smidgen of anything unclean in us, God will be at work purifying us for Himself.

 

[guanophore]

In the catholic catechism, it says under the topic of purgatory: Purgatory, as a good opportunity to clean up a bit before we enter God’s heaven, seems logically proper. After all, who of us would want to go from the dust of this earth before preparing a little before entering the very presence of the Lord God?

Yankee, you are further undermining your own credibility. You are not addressing uneducated buffoons here. We may understand the Christian faith differently than you, but we are not that easily swayed by falsehoods.

I was just about to commend you for reading the Catechism instead of getting your ideas out of wikipedia, when I realized that you stole this from a Catholic parish bulletin.

BTW, it is required here that we cite our sources. It is part of the forum rules. If you wish to remain as a contributor here, you will have to follow those rules. Perhaps Moondweller can give you some guidance on that.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The problem is, Randy (and it’s been pointed out to you many times before), that passage in context is about WORKS and REWARDS, not the purging of sins. The fire there (which is figurative) is revelatory, not purgatorial. Those works which cannot be burned (figuratively, gold, silver, precious stones) receive reward. Those which do burn (figuratively, wood, hay, straw) - no reward.

Every true believer will go through the fiery judgment of his works. But the man who goes through the fiery judgment and receives no reward is yet saved because his salvation was never based on his works in the first place, but “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone. That’s what verse 15 is stating.

Admit it, there’s no Apostolic teaching on Catholic Purgatory. Purgatory is a post-Apostolic teaching of men.

In a written exchange with James White on this topic, Robert Sungenis wrote:

Notice that Dr. White equates “suffer loss” with “loss of reward,” rather than, as 1 Cor 3:15 actually says, “If any man’s WORK is burned up he will suffer loss.” In other words, if we follow the metaphor that Paul has developed, the text does not say that the “loss” is a loss of reward, but a loss of work - the work that he did in building the building. It is the work that is destroyed by the fire, not the reward. Paul could have easily said, “If any man’s work is burned up he will lose his reward,” but he didn’t. So why does Dr. White force such an interpretation on the text? Because Dr. White’s theology demands that such a man forever be deprived of the reward, but Catholicism does not, since Catholicism says that the man of 1 Cor 3:15 does not lose his reward, rather, it is only temporarily delayed, since he must first pass through the fire in order to attain that reward, which is his salvation. That is why 3:15 says “he will be saved.”

Now, as far as interpreting the metaphor of “suffering loss” into a soteriological reality (as Paul did with the “foundation,” “building” and “temple”), we have some very interesting evidence in favor of the Catholic interpretation of temporal punishment. In a previous rebuttal to Dr. White on Purgatory (www.catholicintl.com/Answer_to_Dr_White_on_1Cor3.htm), I refered to several Protestant lexicons which say that the ultimate meaning of the metaphor “suffer loss” in 1 Cor 3:15 refers to some form of punishment. Below are the references I cited:

a) Louw-Nida Lexicon: #02949:38.7: zemioomai: “to be punished, with the implication of suffering damage - to be punished, to suffer punishment. zemiothesetai “but if anyone’s work is burned up he will suffer punishment” 1 Cor 3:15. It is also possible to understand zemioomai in 1 Cor 3:15 as meaning simply ‘to suffer loss.’”

Notice that Louw-Nida’s first, or primary, definition of zemioomai in 1 Cor 3:15 is “suffer punishment.”

b) Walter Bauer’ Lexicon states: “zemioo…2. be punished (Lysias 31, 26 al.; Dit., Or. 669, 40; Ptebt. 5, 92; Pro 19:9; Jos., Ant. 15, 16) 1 Cor 3:15. – Astumpff, TW II 890-4. M-M.” (page 338).

Notice that Bauer places 1 Cor 3:15 as the example of where zemioo has the meaning of “be punished.”

c) The UBS Greek Dictionary states: “zemioo, passive, lose, forfeit, suffer loss; be punished (1 Cor 3:15)”

Notice how the UBS puts a semicolon after suffer loss, thus considering the meaning of “be punished” the primary meaning of 1 Cor. 3:15.

d) Liddell and Scott Greek lexicon, along with the meaning of “suffer loss” and “to fine,” states: “2. generally, to punish, Id., Thuc.”

Interestingly enough, these lexicons concur with the LXX usage of “penalty” and “punishment” in legal and non-legal contexts, in the six uses of the Greek verb zemioo: Ex 21:22; Dt 22:19; Pr 17:26; 19:19; 21:11; 22:3; and seven uses of the Greek noun zemia: 2Kg 23:33; Er 7:26; Pr 22:3; 27:12; 1Ed 1:36; 8:24; 2Mc 4:48. Of these, Ex 21:22 and Pr 19:19 have the identical morphology as zemiothesetai of 1 Cor 3:15 (indicative, future, passive, 3rd, person, singular) and are translated “punished” (from the Hebrew anash, which means “fine,” “punish,” or “penalty”).

Now, is this some ‘Catholic papal thumper’ telling you that “suffer loss” in 1 Cor 3:15 refers to “punishment”? Obviously not. None of the above authors ever claimed to be Catholic, nor were the translators of the LXX Catholics.

Later, in this same exchange, Sungenis writes:

Here’s what happens in 1 Cor 3:15, and it is perfectly compatible with Catholic teaching on Purgatory: (1) the man’s work is burned up by the fire, yet (2) the man himself is saved by passing through the same fire. In fact, in the Greek, the word “yet so” (NASB, and many other translations) is the adverb houtos. Adverbs modify verbs. The verb in the verse is sozo (“saved”). In other words, the adverb tells HOW the man is saved. In this passage, the adverbial clause is “yet so as by fire.” Thus, HOW will the man be saved? The adverbial clause tells us: BY PASSING THROUGH THE FIRE. Hence, in the same way the works had to pass through the fire to determine their quality, thus, the man himself must pass through the fire. If there is dross in him, the fire will remove it, just as the fire removed the bad materials from the building it burned. Its really very simple. Rome’s view is wholly compatible with Scripture. Since “fire” is used in this way in other Scriptures (1 Pt 1:7, 17) it fits like a glove here in 1 Cor 3:15.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Every true believer will go through the fiery judgment of his works. But the man who goes through the fiery judgment and receives no reward is yet saved because his salvation was never based on his works in the first place, but “by grace through faith” in Jesus Christ alone.

And, oh by the way,

Catholics have no problem saying ‘Amen’ to this because we AGREE that true believers may go through a purgatorial process and that they “will be saved”.

So, what you seem to misunderstand is that Purgatory is not a testing process by which God determines whether or not what you have done in this life will get you into heaven. This isn’t like standing around nervously waiting for a pregancy test to give you a “+” or a “-”.

No, this is about burning off the dross that still clings to the soul at the moment of death and dealing with the temporal - not eternal - consequences of sins that have already been forgiven.