purgatory

[guanophore]

The Bible stresses repeatedly that nothing but belief in Christ saves, penance is nowhere mentioned. Neither is purgatory. Everything in the Luke 16 parable points to the fact that our eternal destiny is fixed at death. Abraham told the rich man that died and went to hell that his fate was sealed and could not be changed. This excludes the possibility of repentance in the spirit world.

Well, we read it differently.

When Jesus says “will not be forgiven in this world, or the next” we understand that to mean that some sins may be forgiven in the next.

But Purgatory is only available to the saved, and we do believe our eternal destiny is fixed at death.

Peter said in Acts 8:20-22 : Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that **the gift of God may be purchased with money**. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Nor can indulgences affect you in the hereafter. Salvation is a free gift of God. You either repent, and accept Christ and His finished work at Calvary or perish. God does not give a 3rd alternative.

It is clear that you do not understand the principle of indulgences. They are efficacious BECAUSE one’s heart is right with God, and BECAUSE Jesus has paid the eternal price of our sins with His blood on the cross.

Purgatory is not a ‘third alternative’.

 

[guanophore]

1 Corinthians 3:15, a passage often cited in support of purgatory, is about works being evaluated. Paul uses the imagery of fire, but the works are burned, not the person.

Right!

The person, redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, is the gold. The works are the dross that is burned away.

Since Paul writes that even a person without any good works can be saved, as long as he’s resting on the foundation of Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:11), the passage actually contradicts Catholic teaching about salvation and works rather than supporting Catholic teaching about purgatory.

No, there is nothing in scripture that contradicts Catholic Teaching. The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics.

It is clear that you have very little understanding of Catholic soteriology. Catholics believe we are born again (saved) in baptism, when we are buried with Him in His death (united to His blood on the cross) and raised to life.

Colossians 1:24 also has nothing to do with any purgatory. Christ alone suffered once and for all to atone for all sins (Isaiah 53:5, 53:10-11, Heb 1:3, Heb 9-10, 1 Peter 3:18, 1 John 1:7). Christians are released from sin through His blood (Rev 1:5). They don’t have a shackle remaining on one of their legs that has to be burned away in purgatory.

Anyone who does not experience the sin nature (flesh) as a shackle has little experience with sanctification. I suggest a read of the second half of Rom 7. Let us know if you think Paul does not wrestle with his sin nature.

Col 1:24 talks about Christ’s ministerial suffering, not His redemptive suffering.

What is the difference? Do you think He was not ministering when He died for our sins?

 

[guanophore]

Is St. Paul God or is Jesus God?

Are you suggesting that Paul is acting outside the will of God?

 What is the *prison *that Jesus speaks of?

You mean the one you can’t get out of until you pay the last penny? I think He is referring to the consequences of our sins. It is in the context of making peace with someone while you are on the road with them. It is incumbent upon us to make amends for our wrongs, and insofar as it depends upon us, to be at peace with all men. If we wrong others, society, or our environment, we create harm. If we do nothing to make amends for the harm that we have done, can we really be considered repentant? “Penance” means living a lifestyle of “repentance” continually turning away from sin, and toward the things of God. If we are living a “pentitential” life, we will always be looking for ways to make amends for our wrongs.

 

[guanophore]

According to Divine Revelation there is no place, or ever was a place, nor ever will be a place, called Purgatory.

I think this is true. Just like Heaven and Hell, Purgatory exists outside the space time continuum. It is more proper to call it a “state” of cleansing.

Why?  Because Jesus is the *propitiation* for our sins and God, through His precious blood, has been *propitiated*.  Christ, through His sacrificial death, has opened wide the entrance into heaven for all the redeemed.

Indeed, it is BECAUSE of His propitiation for our sins through His blood on the cross that we are cleansed, so that we are fit for heaven. Whatever that is not cleansed from this in this life that needs to be will be after death.

Protestants believe in purgatory too, they just think of in more as “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we shall all be changed”. And maybe, since it is outside the space time continuum, that is what the experience will be like.

 

[guanophore]

Correct. Hades is still occupied but the redeemed now enter heaven. Hell is yet to be occupied. Scripture reveals nothing like a place Rome calls Purgatory. Nor should it. God dealt with all sins, once for all, at Calvary. Men receive all the salvific benefits of Christ’s sacrificial work at the time of personal aith in Him (Eph. 2:8-9). As Jesus said:John 10:9 “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture” (cf. Jn. 14:6)The “door” is not Purgatory.

You are creating a false dichotomy. We are purged in HIm, with Him, and through Him. It does not happen apart from Him! He is the finisher, the perfector of our faith! No one comes to the Father but by HIm.

 

[guanophore]

Catholic Purgatory serves no purpose for us who have been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. It’s totally nonsensical.

Well, if it is, then it is also nonsensical that any sanctification be done. If we already are as God desires us to be, why is any growth or change necessary?

 

[guanophore]

Obviously, one who has trodden under foot the Son of God and considers His blood as unholy (common), was never personally sanctified, by faith, in the Son of God. You fail to understand the context of that verse and how the word sanctified is used.

Perhaps you can enlighten us, then, MD?

You see, the Apostles taught that being partakers of His grace was to be make a member of the One Body, His Church. One cannot be sanctified unless one is saved by His blood. therefore, this innovative notion that one could be sanctified, but never believe, makes no sense to us.

Yes!  "*Once for all*" does imply ***irreversible***.

Christ’s sacrifice was irreversible,and once for all. However, it does not benefit those who are not united to it (not everyone is saved).

Actually, what you've just helped to prove is that it is not reversible, nor is the believer's sanctification in Christ a *process*, but in reality a *status*.

If this is the case, I am curous to find out why there are so many NT references to sanctification being ongoing.

The true believer is identified as one *sanctified* in the risen Christ.  Nothing about the risen Christ is reversible.

True, He is not reversible, but our path to holiness sure can be. His work is not completed in us during this lifetime, so as long as we are here in the vale of tears, the possibility exists that we can fall away.

To be sanctified in the risen Christ is an ongoing, perpetual status. It’s a condition, an eternal position.

It certainly can be. But one can also be cut off the vine, thrown into the fire and burned, disqualified, shipwrecked, fail to finish the race, their name blotted out of the book of life.

However, none of those is the topic of this thread. This thread is about how we are purified from sin, because nothing unclean can enter heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

Taking off one’s dirty shoes in “the mud room” might sound “appropriate” to the “pedestrian” mind, but is nowhere revealed by the Divine Mind. :tiphat:

Yes, God does use sharp, intellectual, erudite minds, such as St. Paul’s, to reveal His Divine Mind, but also poor, simple, pedestrian minds, such as the Blessed Mother’s, to complete His Work.

 

[adriancombe]

Often even Protestants incorrectly interpret 1 Jn. 1:9 by applying that verse to believers meaning an on going experience for the forgiveness and cleansing of sins. *But the Greek word translated “confess” in that passage is homologeo and means “to acknowledge.” *When one acknowledges sins and, therefore, oneself a sinner (which would have been totally contrary to Gnostic teaching in that day), John here confirms that upon faith in Christ, He (God) is faithful and righteous to forgive us of our sins and cleans us from ALL unrighteousness. Nowhere does John (or any of the Apostles) teach us that men receive forgiveness and cleansing of sins upon confessing them.

This is complete nonsense. The reason some Protestants interpret the passage that way is they have a better grasp of Greek grammar than you.

1:9 *ἐὰν ὁμολογῶμεν τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν, πιστός ἐστιν καὶ δίκαιος ἵνα ἀφῇ ἡμῖν τὰς ἁμαρτίας, καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀδικίας

First, all the verbs in the passage are subjunctive in mood, not indicative. This means John is addressing a desired state, not one that has definitely already occured. *Young’s Literal Translation captures this well: **

1 John 1:9
if we may confess our sins, stedfast He is and righteous that He may forgive us the sins, and may cleanse us from every unrighteousness;

Secondly,*ὁμολογεω is used in the present tense in this passage. Present tense in Greek indicates durative, linear action. But αφίημι and καθαρίζω are in the aorist, which indicates punctiliar action that occurs once. So what John conveys with economy of words in Greek, owing to the elliptical style of the language, we need to expressly more verbosely, thus

If, as I hope, you are confessing your sins regularly already, and assuming you continue to do so, each time you do, God will be faithful and forgive your sins and purify you each time.*

 

[yankee_drifter]

Posted by PRmerger

Do you have a paragraph number from the Catechism for this, yankee? The language used in your quote above seems quite pedestrian and not at all the language of the Catechism, so I’m a bit skeptical that you found that in there.

I think you found that elsewhere.

Nevertheless, I find nothing wrong with the statement. Wouldn’t you want to put on your wedding garments before you see your Beloved face to face? Don’t you want to take off your dirty shoes in the mud room before you enter the Mansion? Seems appropriate to me!

It came from a pocket size catechism for adults called: “Knowing your Faith”, All Basic Catholic Beliefs. Pg. 56

Randy Carson said in a post a few pages back that:

Purgatory is not a place where the soul can do anything to cleans himself; all cleansing is done by God alone

If I remove my muddy shoes and put nice garments on then its me doing the cleaning up, not God. If I make it to heaven, its because of the righteousness of Christ in me. Not my own righteousness. Read Isaiah 64:6

 

[yankee_drifter]

Quote from moondweller:

Isn’t it amazing the unity of our faith in Christ. Yet we don’t even go to the same church. This is the unity in Him that Christ prayed for in Jn. 17. Such unity is not to be mistaken for religious conformity, but our faith in Christ alone, and our new identity now in Him risen: “washed, sanctified and justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:11).

Couldn’t have said it better myself. This is the bride that Christ is coming back for. The unity Christ sought is found in individual believers in Him, not in one monolithic hierarchical church.

Thanks for the support. Its a wonderful thing that Protestants, Evangelicals, those true Christians who do not affiliate with any specific denomination, can find much agreement. We are mostly united in essentials and express liberty in the non essentials. I wish the roman catholic could understand that. They claim there are thousands and thousands of denominations but fail to see that we agree on many things because Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and the Holy Scriptures is where we find God’s Truth.

 

[Holly3278]

Personally I’m not crazy about these traditions (traditions with small “t”) when it says “pray x and release exactly this number of souls.”

I know prayer for souls in Purgatory helps them, and that’s enough to go forth and pray for them.

I agree. I know that prayers for the souls in Purgatory helps them but I do not know that a certain prayer actually releases 1000 souls from Purgatory. That said, it’s still a good idea to pray for the souls in Purgatory.

Here are some links about Purgatory:

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

staycatholic.com/ecf_purgatory.htm

staycatholic.com/purgatory.htm

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

catholicintl.com/articles/OldArticles/01/First%20Rebuttal%20to%20James%20White%20on%20Purgatory.pdf

catholicintl.com/epologetics/dialogs/lastthings/rebutal-white-purgatory1.htm

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1030

Pax Tecum,
Holly

 

[paul_c]

Quote from moondweller:

Couldn’t have said it better myself. This is the bride that Christ is coming back for. The unity Christ sought is found in individual believers in Him, not in one monolithic hierarchical church.

Thanks for the support. Its a wonderful thing that Protestants, Evangelicals, those true Christians who do not affiliate with any specific denomination, can find much agreement. We are mostly united in essentials and express liberty in the non essentials. I wish the roman catholic could understand that. They claim there are thousands and thousands of denominations but fail to see that we agree on many things because Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior and the Holy Scriptures is where we find God’s Truth.

This is completely laughable, frankly. People that make up their own christian faith are the true Christians, while those that follow the faith the way that Jesus intended are not? Please! Someday, you will understand the truth and come to realize how ridiculous this statement is. The scripture on which you rely (and unfortunately distort) was written by Catholics for Catholics. The Truth is the catholic interpretation of those scriptures. Where you deviate from that, you deviate from truth.

 

[rinnie]

Can you quote for me even one Apostle’s teaching on Purgatory?

Yes I can.

CCC 1030 The Final Purification or Purgatory
Alll who die in Gods grace and friendship but still imperfectly purified are indeed assured of their eternal salvaion, but after death they undergo purification so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the jo of heaven.

The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on purgatory at Councils of Florence and Trent. The TRADITION of the Church by reference to certain texts of scripture of a cleansing fire.

As for certain lesser faults we must believe that before the final judgment there is a purifying fire.

The teaching is also based on the practice of the prayers for the dead mentioned in SS. Judas Maccabeus made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin.

This has been believed from the beginning. This is a teaching believed and taught by the Apostles from the beginning of time, and taught by the Church from Tradition. As the bible will tell you not all is written.

Well this scripture is in the bible about the final purification. And because the Church holds the fullness of the truth Tradition and SS we have this teaching. THis teaching that has been passed down from the Apostles.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Posted by PRmerger

It came from a pocket size catechism for adults called: “Knowing your Faith”, All Basic Catholic Beliefs. Pg. 56

Randy Carson said in a post a few pages back that:

If[SIGN] I remove my muddy shoes and put nice garments on then its me doing the cleaning up, not God. If I make it to heaven, its because of the righteousness of Christ in me. Not my own righteousness. Read Isaiah 64:6

[/SIGN]

Then are you saying that you can be forgiven of sin all by yourself without the forgiveness of Christ. Because by us removing our muddy shoes and putting on nice garments is to go to confession repent, ask for forgiveness and sin no more. Do you believe we could even know to do this without Christ, Or that this is even possible without Christ.

Or are you saying we just do not have to repent and confess our sins at all? Are you trying to say that we can remain in our muddy shoes (our sins) and Not put on nice garments (confess our sins, quit the sin, and become pure once more)?

 

[yankee_drifter]

Quote from moondweller:

The church (the spiritual body of Christ) is to support the Word of God, the Word of truth (1 Tim. 3:15); it is not itself the Word of God nor itself the Truth

You are absolutely correct. The church’s responsibility is to support and defend God’s word, the Holy Scriptures. The church is not the source of Truth. Jesus never promised infallibility to any church because man is human, fallible. The infant churches already fell into error as we read in the NT. Paul wrote to Ephesus that even from among you are some teaching falsely. A pillar holds something up. The church of Christ must hold up Truth, not claim infallibility. What Jesus did promise was to always be with the church. Wherever 2 or more are gathered, there is He among them.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Quote from moondweller:

You are absolutely correct. The church’s responsibility is to support and defend God’s word, the Holy Scriptures. The church is not the source of Truth. [SIGN]Jesus never promised infallibility to any church b[/SIGN]ecause man is human, fallible. The infant churches already fell into error as we read in the NT. Paul wrote to Ephesus that even from among you are some teaching falsely. A pillar holds something up. The church of Christ must hold up Truth, not claim infallibility. What Jesus did promise was to always be with the church. Wherever 2 or more are gathered, there is He among them.

Yes he did. He promised the Apostles the Advocate the Holy Spirit to lead you to all truth. Jesus told his Apostles I WILL GIVE YOU THE WORDS. That is why when it comes to the Teaching of the Church it can not fail.

 

[clmowry]

yankee_drifter:
The church of Christ must hold up Truth, not claim infallibility.

How in the world does one do the first with out the implication of the 2nd?

If the Church upholds the Truth, then it is infallible [in upholding that truth.]

If the Church in not infallible [in upholding the Truth], then it is not capable of doing so.

Chuck

 

[rinnie]

How in the world does one do the first with out the implication of the 2nd?

If the Church upholds the Truth, then it is infallible [in upholding that truth.]

If the Church in not infallible [in upholding the Truth], then it is not capable of doing so.

Chuck

Exactly. 1 Tim 14. You have in you a spiritual gift which was given to you when the Protphets spoke and the body of elders LAID THEIR HANDS ON YOU. Do not neglect it.

If I did not believe that my Church held the fullness of truth in its teaching I would not be Catholic.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Quote from rinnie:

Then are you saying that you can be forgiven of sin all by yourself without the forgiveness of Christ. Because by us removing our muddy shoes and putting on nice garments is to go to confession repent, ask for forgiveness and sin no more. Do you believe we could even know to do this without Christ, Or that this is even possible without Christ.

Or are you saying we just do not have to repent and confess our sins at all? Are you trying to say that we can remain in our muddy shoes (our sins) and Not put on nice garments (confess our sins, quit the sin, and become pure once more)?

There is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood. Therefore, there can be no forgiveness without Jesus Christ having died us for and sacrificed Himself on the cross.

If I believed I could clean myself up apart from the finished work of Christ at Calvary, then I would be denying the very sacrificial work of Christ.

Where does God ever say in His Word, the Holy Bible, that we must clean ourselves up before he will accept us? Christ died for the sinner, we are to come to Him just as we are. Many times its when a person hits rock bottom and realizes he is helpless to change, that he turns to Christ with empty hands. Its the work of God to transform us from the inside. We cannot do it ourselves. Who among us and keep all the 10 Commandments all the time?

Of course we need to confess whenever we lapse into sin because it hinders our relationship with God. Whenever I sin, the Holy Spirit convicts me of my wrong doing and there’s no peace until I confess. But I confess directly to God who is faithful to forgive.