purgatory

[durhamfire]

how do we know that this is true? how do we know that we released 1000 souls from purgatory? I recieved this as an answer to a earlier thread I posted about purgatory

St. Gertrude prayer for the souls in Purgatory - Eternal Father, I offer you the most precious blood of your Divine Son Jesus, in union with the masses said throughout the day, for all the holy souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, in my own home and in my family.

Each time you say this prayer, 1000 souls are released from Purgatory.

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

Not to nitpick, but this statement is not Catholic dogma, so if you want to be technical you are not required by the Church to believe. Visions by Catholic mystics and saints are often piously believed, and the Church does not discourage what strengthens devotion to Christ among her members, but in this case it is not required. Canonizations are infallible, but knowing whether or not a specific person even is in purgatory or hell is not a dogma.

I’m not even familiar with the above quote, but it is not an article of faith, hence, it could conceivably be an error, or it could be true.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Personally I’m not crazy about these traditions (traditions with small “t”) when it says “pray x and release exactly this number of souls.”

I know prayer for souls in Purgatory helps them, and that’s enough to go forth and pray for them.

 

[puzzleannie]

how do we know that this is true? how do we know that we released 1000 souls from purgatory? I recieved this as an answer to a earlier thread I posted about purgatory

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I don’t know it, I have never seen any reliable source that promoted this prayer or the thinking behind it as dogma, nor have I ever seen a course which quotes and promotes this prayer printed with an imprimatur, and furthermore the most popular book promoting this prayer is banned here, so until I see some competent Church authority promoting the dogma as expressed in the prayer, and the prayer and indulgence itself, I don’t buy it.

 

[Karen1960]

how do we know that this is true? how do we know that we released 1000 souls from purgatory? I recieved this as an answer to a earlier thread I posted about purgatory

St. Gertrude prayer for the souls in Purgatory - Eternal Father, I offer you the most precious blood of your Divine Son Jesus, in union with the masses said throughout the day, for all the holy souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, in my own home and in my family.

Each time you say this prayer, 1000 souls are released from Purgatory.

Although we do say prayers for the souls in purgatory everyday, there is no prescribed prayer that must be said, and certainly, only God has the final word on how many and when souls are released.
Prayers of this sort may lead many uneducated Catholics into supersitions and should be avoided.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. …

(1 Peter 3:18-20)

It appears that there was a place where the souls of the dead lived that was neither heaven nor hell, but a kind of prison. Peter said that Christ visited this place after His crucifixion. Having been a Protestant, i was taught that Purgatory does not exist. But if it does not, then i wonder about this prison of the dead that Peter mentions. If it is not Purgatory, then what is it? If it still exists, are there now no residents in it?

 

[Nathan_Wagar]

This passage is highly debated, and many Catholics have given up on using it as a definitive passage proving purgatory, and instead focus on using to at least prove to the Protestant mind the *possibility *of a third state that isn’t heaven or hell. I think 1 Corinthians 3:15 is much more of an overt reference (particularly in the original Greek). Keep in mind that Catholic speculation about the nature of purgatory has changed (anywhere from viewing it as a place, to viewing it as a period of cleansing), since no dogmatic pronouncement has been made. I personally subscribe to the period of purging, for a variety of Scriptural reasons.

 

[Church_Militant]

Maybe this article on my blog will help somewhat.

Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About Purgatory

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This passage is highly debated, and many Catholics have given up on using it as a definitive passage proving purgatory, and instead focus on using to at least prove to the Protestant mind the *possibility *of a third state that isn’t heaven or hell. I think 1 Corinthians 3:15 is much more of an overt reference (particularly in the original Greek). Keep in mind that Catholic speculation about the nature of purgatory has changed (anywhere from viewing it as a place, to viewing it as a period of cleansing), since no dogmatic pronouncement has been made. I personally subscribe to the period of purging, for a variety of Scriptural reasons.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

(1 Corinthians 3)

Nathan:

Some Protestants teach that verse 15 describes one who does few good works but still makes it to heaven. For such a one, there is little reward in heaven. For others, whose good works are like gold or silver or diamonds, they will be rewarded according to what they have done. Just as there are degrees of punishment in hell, so too there are degrees of reward in heaven, these Protestants say.

 

[Odell]

Yea but you don’t suffer loss in heaven. So we catholics say

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

(1 Corinthians 3)

Nathan:

Some Protestants teach that verse 15 describes one who does few good works but still makes it to heaven. For such a one, there is little reward in heaven. For others, whose good works are like gold or silver or diamonds, they will be rewarded according to what they have done. Just as there are degrees of punishment in hell, so too there are degrees of reward in heaven, these Protestants say.

 

[Nita]

how do we know that this is true? how do we know that we released 1000 souls from purgatory? I recieved this as an answer to a earlier thread I posted about purgatory

St. Gertrude prayer for the souls in Purgatory - Eternal Father, I offer you the most precious blood of your Divine Son Jesus, in union with the masses said throughout the day, for all the holy souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, in my own home and in my family.

Each time you say this prayer, 1000 souls are released from Purgatory.

What you are referring to is called “indulgences” – where we are able to aid souls in purgatory with our prayers and sacrifices offered on their behalf. At one time these benefits were expressed in terms of a certain number of days. This practice has been discontinued. Agree with the others here that it was never an official practice of the Church to designate a number of* souls*.

Here is a link to the CCC section (paragraphs 1471-1479) that gives Church teaching on indulgences. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4G.HTM
I think it would break the rules to copy & paste all the paragraphs, but here is the first one.
CCC#1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.

 

[imkingdad]

What you are referring to is called “indulgences” – where we are able to aid souls in purgatory with our prayers and sacrifices offered on their behalf. At one time these benefits were expressed in terms of a certain number of days. This practice has been discontinued. Agree with the others here that it was never an official practice of the Church to designate a number of* souls*.

Here is a link to the CCC section (paragraphs 1471-1479) that gives Church teaching on indulgences. vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P4G.HTM
I think it would break the rules to copy & paste all the paragraphs, but here is the first one.
CCC#1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance.

What is an indulgence?

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints."81
"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin."82 Indulgences may be applied to the living or the dead.

Thank you, Finally someone went to the source the CCC for the Information regarding Indulgence, the RCC teaching on Purgatory is also there.

This shoul dbe our 1st stop rather than our Opinions. after reviewing the Official Church Teachings then we can make our pronouncements about them.

Indulgences are still valid today & Nita makes some good points about them as well. The Power/authority of this comes from the Church’s Power to Bind & Loose as given to Peter 1st & then the Apostles. It has been taught & practiced since the earliest days of the Church. Hope this helps a bit…

 

[moondweller]

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. …

(1 Peter 3:18-20)

It appears that there was a place where the souls of the dead lived that was neither heaven nor hell, but a kind of prison. Peter said that Christ visited this place after His crucifixion. Having been a Protestant, i was taught that Purgatory does not exist. But if it does not, then i wonder about this prison of the dead that Peter mentions. If it is not Purgatory, then what is it? If it still exists, are there now no residents in it?

First of all Peter begins by saying that Jesus died for our sins, ONCE FOR ALL, the Just FOR the unjust, for the specific reason that He might bring us (believers) TO GOD - not to some place called “Purgatory.” The Scriptures speak of no such place, since the notion of such a place would deny the sufficiency of the cross of Christ where Peter first states that Jesus died for our sins ONE FOR ALL for the purpose of bringing us (true believers) to God.

The second part of that passage is quite obscure, and because it says He made proclamation (not “preached”) to “spirits now in prison,” it can’t be referring to saved “souls” which, prior to the cross of Christ, resided not in “prison” but were comforted in a place called the bosom of Abraham (read Lk. 16:20-31). God did not, nor does not, send His children to “prison.”

The doctrine of Purgatory is uniquely Catholic. It’s not at all Biblical. Catholicism claims that “Purgatory” is a place where Catholics go to be purged of all venial sins (in which they died) through personal suffering. But such a doctrine militates against the cross of Christ where Scripture tells us Jesus Himself “made purification of sins” and subsequently sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Heb. 1:3).

Since the cross of Christ, and His subsequent ascension into Heaven, there are no longer any “souls” (men are not referred to as “spirits”) residing in "the bosom of Abraham:"Eph. 4:8 "When He ascended on High, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men."And the Apostle Paul taught that for saved believers to be absent from the body is to be “home with the Lord” (2 Cor. 5:6-9). He taught nothing concerning Catholic “Purgatory.”

 

[MarcoPolo]

First of all Peter begins by saying that Jesus died for our sins, ONCE FOR ALL

Purgatory is not an affront to Christ’s sacrifice. Your concern is very common, but does not apply here. Remember, Purgatory is final sanctification to make one utterly focused on God and completely detached from worldly things. Rare persons attain this on earth, by grace. Most do not. To be in heaven you have to be perfect, free from any propensity to sin. You still fall here and there do you not? That part of you will be purified by Christ’s blood before you can go into heaven. Can’t have people prone to sin in heaven. Even many Protestants believe in a transformation at death into heavenly beings. They just do not call it Purgatory. No worries.

 

[friedeggs]

most people when they die these days go to Purgatory

they willingly send themselves there to cleanse their souls from the blackness of their sins

when they die they see how great and loving God is and they want to be with Him forever

but they have not yet made the necessary atonement to the Justice of God for their sins

so they willingly send themselves to Purgatory to get back to Heaven as quickly as they can

the pain in Purgatory is very great indeed - more than any pain on this earth - because it is the soul that is being cleansed with fire

therefore it is far better to make atonement for sin in this life than in the next

the Holy Souls have the certitude of knowing that 1 day they will spend forever in Heaven with God - this joy far outweighs their pain and helps them to endure

souls in Purgatory are alone - at least they are completely unaware that anyone else is there - even though there are millions of souls there!!

we can pray for them - God allows it but they cannot pray for themselves because when they die they are certain of God

St Gertrude the Great was given this prayer by Jesus

“Eternal Father i offer you the Most Precious Blood of thy Divine Son Jesus in union with all the Masses said throughout the world today for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory Amen”

once i was saying this prayer over and over again and i heard a voice say to me - “i hear you”

i knew it was God - do not deny them this help - Jesus says that the thing that hurts Him the most is that people do not trust in His Mercy!!

 

[moondweller]

Purgatory is not an affront to Christ’s sacrifice. Your concern is very common, but does not apply here. Remember, Purgatory is final sanctification to make one utterly focused on God and completely detached from worldly things.

Catholic Purgatory has to do with SINS.

But according to the Scriptures, the sinner, at the time of personal belief in Christ, is sanctified in Christ having been cleansed of all sins through His shed blood.Heb 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."According to the Scriptures our sins were dealt with, once for all, through the substitutionary, sin-sacrifice of Jesus Christ, by His suffering, not ours. And it’s by Christ, and the offering of His blood, that God Himself has perfected, for all time, we who are now sanctified in Christ:Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."This is all part of Divine salvation through belief in Christ, Marco. It’s what it means to be “saved by grace through faith.” Purgatory is a doctrine rooted in unbelief, taking the focus off Christ and on to self.

 

[Odell]

Catholics believe sanctification is a process if we can prove that purgatory makes perfect since. So when I get home tonight I will prove from scripture sanctification is indeed a process

Catholic Purgatory has to do with SINS.

But according to the Scriptures, the sinner, at the time of personal belief in Christ, is sanctified in Christ having been cleansed of all sins through His shed blood.Heb 10:10 "By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."According to the Scriptures our sins were dealt with, once for all, through the substitutionary, sin-sacrifice of Jesus Christ, by His suffering, not ours. And it’s by Christ, and the offering of His blood, that God Himself has perfected, for all time, we who are now sanctified in Christ:Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."This is all part of Divine salvation through belief in Christ, Marco. It’s what it means to be “saved by grace through faith.” Purgatory is a doctrine rooted in unbelief, taking the focus off Christ and on to self.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Catholic Purgatory

You are not responding to what has been presented. Please stop that. Do you still sin? Is your proneness to sin compatible with heaven? No. Even if you are forgiven, God will purge your flaws away before you enter heaven. Your premise ignores every Scripture that seeks to move His elect toward sanctification.

Following will be my treatment on Heb 10:14.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
moondweller suggests that a Christian is in the same condition on earth he will be in heaven. He used the first half of the verse to argue that perfection is a past event for the Christian still on earth. I can’t reconcile this with the text.

If the Christian’s soul is “perfect” on earth already, why are we told in Hebrews 12:7-11 that God’s “sons” will have to undergo discipline for holiness, which we are told is necessary to “see God”? I could go on and on with examples of Christians in Scripture, who sin.

moondweller’s interpretation also contradicts Paul:Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

So the question is, what is the author of Hebrews saying. Because as a Catholic, I don’t want to “explain away” a verse and only figure out what it doesn’t mean. There are at least a couple ways to understand this passage. And we want those interpretations to be in harmony with Scripture that shows Christians still sin and require further sanctification for the sake of holiness. One way is to understand “those who are sanctified” simply as those in heaven. They are indeed perfect. They are indeed perfect by Christ’s blood. And they have indeed been perfected forever.

A second way to understand it would be to proceed with a Molinistic view of predestination. In short, this notion views the “elect” as those whom God foresaw cooperating with His grace throughout all time. Those individuals still cooperate freely, but to God, they are the elect, since He knew even before they were born what they would do. His sovereignty remains intact, as it is His will that we choose Him freely. With this hermeneutic, one can understand the passage as God “perfected” (past tense) those he knew would persevere (i.o.w., those who are still, from their own perspective, “being made Holy”, yet God from God’s perspective, they have already been perfected because He knows they will persevere.) You sometimes see the prophets use past tense language in reference to the future.

Additionally, the context of Heb. 10:14 from verse 11 is contrasting how the Old Covenant sacrifices of priests could never sanctify, but Christ’s can. That’s the whole context and purpose of the passage. Jesus is the source, that perfect offering that DOES perfectly sanctify in contrast to the offerings that DID NOT. Thus, no more offerings are needed (v. 18).

 

[moondweller]

Catholics believe sanctification is a process if we can prove that purgatory makes perfect since. So when I get home tonight I will prove from scripture sanctification is indeed a process

“Experiential” sanctification is a process. But not even “experiential” sanctification is about achieving sinlessness in these yet unredeemed bodies. But, according to the Scriptures, ALL sins were dealt with judicially, and, once for all, by God at Calvary.

The doctrine of Purgatory, which has to do with cleansing of sins through personal suffering, militates against what God has revealed concerning the cross of Christ and the cleansing of ALL sins by blood.

Experiential sanctification is the process by which the redeemed grow to spiritual maturity while still here on earth (2 Pet. 3:18; 2 Tim. 2:21).

Positional sanctification is the revealed truth regarding the believers new identity in the risen Christ, having died TO sin with Him. He is now, by God, sanctified “in Christ” (Acts 20:32; 26:18; 1 Cor. 1:2; 1 Cor. 6:11; Heb. 2:11; 10:10). This sanctification is NOT a process, but it’s revealed, Divine truth concerning the believer’s present position now “in Christ.”

Ultimate sanctification will occur when we who are redeemed will receive our glorified bodies in conformity to Christ’s (Phil. 3:20-21). This sanctification is NOT a process but a future eternal state. It will be the time when the believer’s condition and position are in harmony.

ALL sanctification is according to God’s GRACE toward the believer. But what Catholicism does is confound experiential sanctification and justification.