purgatory

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

It wasn’t His own sins of which He made purification, but ours. Everyone one of them. And it wasn’t by “purifying fire,” but shed blood. This according to Divine revelation - to be BELIEVED in unto salvation.

For the umpteenth time; the “purifying fire” is for the temporal punishment due to sins. You refuse to acknowledge that Catholics believe that the sins of mankind were forgiven by the blood shed for us by Jesus Christ. We believe that, just like you do. However, where we differ is that we believe there is still a necessity for penance. You deny the need for any penance. Purgatory is merely the penance that was not completed in this life but is still required. Your “religion” if I dare call it that, since it has no doctrine, no creed, has no theology of Penance.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Because you just stated it yourself, Randy. Suffering has to do with the growth and maturity (if endured in faith) of the Christian (defined as one who has personally BELIEVED the Word of God concerning Christ). It has absolutely nothing to do with purifying a Christian of sins.

There’s only ONE Man who ever suffered (and died) for that, and it wasn’t done in the afterlife, but right here on earth in a real place in time and history. It wasn’t His own sins of which He made purification, but ours. Everyone one of them. And it wasn’t by “purifying fire,” but shed blood. This according to Divine revelation - to be BELIEVED in unto salvation.

First, if our suffering at the beginning of our journey does not contradict the work of Christ on the cross, then the suffering at the final moments of our journey does not, either.

Second, we agree that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross in a real place in time and history. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us.

Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over time through, among other things, the process of sanctification by which we are made holy, and nothing prevents God from applying His blood to us both now and in the interim between our death and our entrance into heaven. Purgatory is simply the final phase of Christ’s application of the the purifying redemption that he accomplished for us on the cross.

 

[rinnie]

Because you just stated it yourself, Randy. Suffering has to do with the growth and maturity (if endured in faith) of the Christian (defined as one who has personally BELIEVED the Word of God concerning Christ). It has absolutely nothing to do with purifying a Christian of sins. There’s only ONE Man who ever suffered (and died) for that, and it wasn’t done in the afterlife, but right here on earth in a real place in time and history. It wasn’t His own sins of which He made purification, but ours. [SIGN]Everyone one of them. [/SIGN] And it wasn’t by “purifying fire,” but shed blood. This according to Divine revelation - to be BELIEVED in unto salvation.

So did you hear that guys. We are all getting in. Our sins are paid. Sin all you like. According to the MD we are good to go. Go do what you what. Jesus paid for all of ours sins and we all are guaranteed eternal life. Forget all the bibles says. THere is no judgement day. Why would there be. Ours sins are all paid.

 

[Thing]

So did you hear that guys. We are all getting in. Our sins are paid. Sin all you like. According to the MD we are good to go. Go do what you what. Jesus paid for all of ours sins and we all are guaranteed eternal life. Forget all the bibles says. THere is no judgement day. Why would there be. Ours sins are all paid.

Thats only for people who are saved, but nobody knows if they are really saved or not.

 

[TheWay]

Forty pages long and moondweller and others arguing against Purgatory still have not addressed the fact that there will be no sin in Heaven (per the bible), even though saved Christians continue to sin after being justified. Whether you call it Glorification, Ultimate Sanctification, or Purgatory, the fact remains that there must (according to the bible) a process (before and after states of existence) after death that radically changes our nature to the point that we will no longer sin for all eternity. This is absolutely required by any theology that follows the bible, there is no way around it. There are no legal fictions in Heaven, only Saints.

 

[JacobG]

In the pocket catholic catechism, “Knowing Your Faith”, under the topic of purgatory:

Which souls go for a time to Purgatory?

Those souls go to purgatory who die in the grace of God but are not free of all venial sins or all punishment due to sin. What the Old Testament says in 2 Macc. 12:46 presupposes after-death purification, as do the words of our Lord in Matt 12:13, because here also the possibility of satisfaction for sin in the hereafter is AT LEAST raised.

Even the catholic catechism admits there’s no real concrete evidence for a place called purgatory. Please note the words “presupposes” and “possibility.” Notice also that it mentions punishment for sin.

Is this enough to base a doctrine on? Presumptions? Possibilities?

 

[moondweller]

rinnie:

MD. Lets get back to the question at hand.

No more beating around the bush. I want a straight answer Lets see if you can do this Just Once.

Jesus says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come.

Okay now, Now this passages states quite clear that certain offenses can be Pardoned in this age. But it also states some sins can be pardoned in the age to come.

Now I do not want you to give me tons of scripture that have nothing to do with this as you have been doing I am asking YOU. Can we have sin and get to heaven? Yes or No?

Can we be forgiven in Hell Yes or No?

A few things you’ve got wrong here, rinnie. Here’s the text:Matt 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the {age} to come.(1) Notice the context is someone speaking against the Son of Man vs. speaking against the Holy Spirit. When one speaks against the Son of Man and then at some point of time in his life, through the ministry of the the Holy Spirit (see Jn. 16:7-11), he’s convicted of his sins and then turns from unbelief to belief in Christ, all that he previously stated against the Son of Man is forgiven. The Apostle Paul is the prime example of one who spoke against the Son of Man yet found complete forgiveness when turning from unbelief to belief in Him1 Tim 1:15-16 "It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost {of all.} Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."But if you speak against the One whose ministry it is to convict, how will you then turn from unbelief and have your sins forgiven? This pertain to this age and the one to come.

Then if its either heaven or hell where are these sins being pardoned in the age to come? (2)Then if its either heaven or hell where are these sins being pardoned in the age to come?

(2) The “age to come” is neither heaven, hell nor Catholic purgatory. It’s the earthly, Millennial Kingdom of the Son of David. What Jesus said about speaking against the Holy Spirit pertains to that coming age as well.

(3) But NONE of this even has to do with your Purgatory since your Purgatory has nothing to do with “forgiving” sins. You might want to refresh your understanding of your doctrine as specified in the CCC.

 

[moondweller]

paul c:

Jesus died to reconcile us with God. This was the work that only the incarnate God could accomplish. This is true and we owe our salvation to Jesus for that.

Jesus accomplished the work of reconciliation on the cross. His work of reconciliation is applied, in full, to the believer at the time of personal faith in Christ. He also accomplished the work of redemption, and this too is applied, in full, to the believer at the time of personal belief in Christ. It’s also revealed in Scripture that Jesus made propitiation for ours sin in His blood. This means that through His sacrificial blood God has been, once for all, propitiated: Completely satisfied.

So, Paul, in respect to the matter of sin He never looks to the sinner for satisfaction but the, once for all, shed blood of the sin-Bearer Himself. Jesus made purification of sins through His sacrificial death and then sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High (Heb. 1:3). God’s wrath against sin has now been turned into pleasure, and that pleasure is demonstrated now by His saving grace toward all who believe in the message concerning the sacrificial work of His beloved Son.

In respect to all that the Son was sent to accomplished for the forgiveness and purification of sins Jesus Himself said, “It is finished” (read 1 Cor. 6:11). There’s NOTHING left to be done but to BELIEVE. That’s why your doctrine of Purgatory is rooted in unbelief.

Well, we also believe that belief in the saving power of Jesus is required for salvation.

No. God Himself has the power to save all who believe in the Person and sacrificial work of His beloved Son.

Once we are saved through Grace by Baptism,

It’s the saved who are to be baptized. They were saved “by grace through faith.”

we need to follow Christ. If we fail to do that, do we really believe what he said and the efficacy of what he did? Because he clearly said “follow me” multiple times in the Gospels, did he not? His whole ministry was about how to be holy as the Father is holy, is it not? Read the Gospels. You’ll see.

Yes, He did say “follow Me.” But no one can follow Him into Catholic Purgatory because He never went there. What He accomplished for forgiveness and purificaton of sins was “FINISHED” on the cross. Your doctrine of Purgatory actually denies the “efficacy” of that “finished” work.

 

[Randy_Carson]

A couple things you’ve got wrong here, rinnie. Here’s the text:
Matt 12:32 "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the {age} to come.
(1) Notice the context is someone speaking against the Son of Man vs. speaking against the Holy Spirit. When one speaks against the Son of Man and then at some point of time in his life, through the ministry of the the Holy Spirit (see Jn. 16:7-11), he’s convicted of his sins and then turns from unbelief to belief in Christ, all that he previously stated against the Son of Man is forgiven. The Apostle Paul is the prime example of one who spoke against the Son of Man yet found complete forgiveness when turning from unbelief to belief in Him
1 Tim 1:15-16 “It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost {of all.} Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.”
But if you speak against the One whose ministry it is to convict, how will you then turn from unbelief and have your sins forgiven? This pertain to this age and the one to come.(2) The “age to come” is neither heaven, hell nor Catholic purgatory. It’s the earthly, Millennial Kingdom of the Son of David. What Jesus said about speaking against the Holy Spirit pertains to that coming age as well.

(3) But NONE of this even has to do with your Purgatory since your Purgatory has nothing to do with “forgiving” sins. You might want to refresh your understanding of your doctrine as specified in the CCC.

If Jesus wanted to designate once for all that no sins could be forgiven in the age to come, then He simply could have said, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him.” PERIOD.

So, first - do you agree that Jesus’ answer clearly implies that SOMETHING will or at least could be addressed in the age to come according to Jesus?

Second, what is that something?

 

[Thing]

Forty pages long and moondweller and others arguing against Purgatory still have not addressed the fact that there will be no sin in Heaven (per the bible), even though saved Christians continue to sin after being justified. Whether you call it Glorification, Ultimate Sanctification, or Purgatory, the fact remains that there must (according to the bible) a process (before and after states of existence) after death that radically changes our nature to the point that we will no longer sin for all eternity. This is absolutely required by any theology that follows the bible, there is no way around it. There are no legal fictions in Heaven, only Saints.

Its worth saying again on the top of a fresh page.

 

[moondweller]

If Jesus wanted to designate once for all that no sins could be forgiven in the age to come, then He simply could have said, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him.” PERIOD.

So, first - do you agree that Jesus’ answer clearly implies that SOMETHING will or at least could be addressed in the age to come according to Jesus?

Second, what is that something?

The context is about that which is NOT forgiven either in this age or the one to come. That age to come is not heaven, hell or your purgatory, but the promised, earthly, Millennial age of the Son of David.

Last of all Randy, according to the doctrine of your Purgatory, Purgatory has NOTHING to do with forgiving sins. GET IT?

 

[TheWay]

No Jacob, Catholic teaching is based on fact, as in according to the bible there will be no sin in Heaven. Fact, as in (and according to your theology), saved Christians continue to sin after being justified. Hence, fact, there is a process after death that radically changes us so that we will no longer sin for all eternity. There are no legal fictions in Heaven, only Saints.

 

[moondweller]

Forty pages long and moondweller and others arguing against Purgatory still have not addressed the fact that there will be no sin in Heaven (per the bible), even though saved Christians continue to sin after being justified.

As per the Bible, there’ll be no sins in heaven because Christ made purification of sins, once for all, right here on earth. After forty pages you still have not successfully addressed this Divine revelation.

 

[grannymh]

Purgatory is one of those “good news - bad news” places.

The good news is that it is our final dash to heaven. It is our transition into glory. The bad news is that we get to see the remains of personal sin on our soul. We can’t wiggle out of the fact that we have an imperfect relationship with God which needs to be repaired. Purgatory is like a healthy dose of yucky medicine. The good news is that we are like the Good Thief who was crucified with Jesus. We see our personal punishment as just so we call loudly to Jesus to remember us. And He does. (Luke 23: 39-43)

The Catholic tradition on Purgatory speaks of a personal purification like unto a cleansing fire. A poetic description sees our soul being immersed in the fire of Christ’s love which burns away the dead branches of earthly life. In other words, in Purgatory we lose our attachments to material earth and the sins found there so that our love for God becomes completely pure. When we finally come into God’s loving presence, we come without our baggage.

Personally, I am sure that I have a reserved seat in the last row of Purgatory. I am grateful that I don’t have to wear a muddy wedding garment into the Grand Feast of Heaven. When I finally walk, make that run, into heaven, I can imagine myself saying: “Wow! You really are God!”

For further information about Catholic teaching on this subject, read Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, Purgatory, paragraphs 1030 -1032; Communion of Saints, paragraphs 1474-1477; The Punishments of Sin, paragraphs1472-1473.
Check out this link to the Catechism www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.

 

[moondweller]

No Jacob, Catholic teaching is based on fact, as in according to the bible there will be no sin in Heaven. Fact, as in (and according to your theology), saved Christians continue to sin after being justified. Hence, fact, there is a process after death that radically changes us so that we will no longer sin for all eternity. There are no legal fictions in Heaven, only Saints.

How do Purgatorial fires guarantee you won’t sin afterward? Fire can’t change human nature. Nor do the Scriptures reveal such a thing. Human nature is changed by a completely different means: A second Man, another Adam. You fail to understand the Scriptures regarding Who Christ is now in relation to the believer, and His “finished” sacrificial work in regards to, once for all, putting away their sins.

 

[Thing]

As per the Bible, there’ll be no sins in heaven because Christ made purification of sins, once for all, right here on earth. After forty pages you still have not successfully addressed this Divine revelation.

So do you continue to sin here on earth until you are dead?

I think you believe in the Sacraments, Baptism, confession, and purgatory except for you they are all rolled together in one lump and you’re zapped with them on the day when you got ‘saved’, whenever that was 20 years ago, or whatever?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The context is about that which is NOT forgiven either in this age or the one to come. That age to come is not heaven, hell or your purgatory, but the promised, earthly, Millennial age of the Son of David.

Last of all Randy, according to the doctrine of your Purgatory, Purgatory has NOTHING to do with forgiving sins. GET IT?

Yes. We have been telling you that for days now. I think we can finally put this to bed. Catholics do not believe that Purgatory is a second chance for those who were not forgiven when they died.

Let me ask you about the age to come…is the age to come a reference to the time after Jesus’ second coming? If so, will people die then? Or will they be judged without dying?

Will some be sent directly to hell as a result of this judgment? Will others go to heaven?

Can someone who is alive in that age die? Can someone in that age be forgiven?

Can someone in that age even sin at all?

I’m interested to see how you would tie all this together…

 

[paul_c]

Jesus accomplished the work of reconciliation on the cross. His work of reconciliation is applied, in full, to the believer at the time of personal faith in Christ. He also accomplished the work of redemption, and this too is applied, in full, to the believer at the time of personal belief in Christ. It’s also revealed in Scripture that Jesus made propitiation for ours sin in His blood. This means that through His sacrificial blood God has been, once for all, propitiated: Completely satisfied.

You write this like its coming directly out of scripture, but it is not. This is just your personal statement of belief. None theless, notice that you state that redemption and reconciliation are applied to the believer at the time of personal belief in Christ. Other than the point that we beleive that baptism is necessary here, we don’t have much to disagree with because your statements don’t go beyond the point of initial belief. We too agree that all of our sins are forgiven at baptism. What we disagree on is that we believe you will be be held accountable for sins after you have been saved, while you feel that belief is a get out of jail free card.

So, Paul, in respect to the matter of sin He never looks to the sinner for satisfaction but the, once for all, shed blood of the sin-Bearer Himself. Jesus made purification of sins through His sacrificial death and then sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High (Heb. 1:3). God’s wrath against sin has now been turned into pleasure, and that pleasure is demonstrated now by His saving grace toward all who believe in the message concerning the sacrificial work of His beloved Son.

so you beleive that Jesus condones future sin? You think sin (turning against God’s will) gives God pleasure?

In respect to all that the Son was sent to accomplished for the forgiveness and purification of sins Jesus Himself said, “It is finished” (read 1 Cor. 6:11). There’s NOTHING left to be done but to BELIEVE. That’s why your doctrine of Purgatory is rooted in unbelief.No. God Himself has the power to save all who believe in the Person and sacrificial work of His beloved Son.It’s the saved who are to be baptized. They were saved "by grace through faith."Yes, He did say “follow Me.” But no one can follow Him into Catholic Purgatory because He never went there. What He accomplished for forgiveness and purificaton of sins was “FINISHED” on the cross. Your doctrine of Purgatory actually denies the “efficacy” of that “finished” work.

Sure God has the power to save all that believe in the person and sacrificial work of Jesus. But do you not understand that Jesus calls us to holiness. His sacrifice was necessary to start us on this path but he never said that all you require for eternal life is belief. He told us lots more than that. He told us directly in Matthew 19 that we needed to follow the commandments to achieve eternal life and that we needed to sell all we own and follow him to achieve perfection. Try reading the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7, in case you aren’t familiar). It’s 3 whole chapters describing all that is expected and it ends with a warning that if you hear all this and don’t follow his teachings would be like a fool who built his house on sand and when the storms came, the house is completely ruined. The doctrine of purgatory is not about unbelief, it is about the desire to become holy, like the lord is holy and to become worthy of standing in his presence.

Read Romans 2 (which states unequivocally that we will be judged on our actions for eternal life) and James 2 (which states unequivocally that works complete faith and that faith without works is dead). The truth will set you free. How much longer can you hold out against it. Forget your unbelief and believe… God is calling you not only to faith, but to holiness and that requires you to copy Jesus and to love.

 

[SteveGC]

moon,

please define purgatory, as you either have understood it, or think we believe it…because your last several posts suggest that you do not know what it is. Please don’t quote the CCC or anything else…just give me moon’s version of the definition.

thanks

 

[grannymh]

How do Purgatorial fires guarantee you won’t sin afterward? Fire can’t change human nature. Nor do the Scriptures reveal such a thing. Human nature is changed by a completely different means: A second Man, another Adam. You fail to understand the Scriptures regarding Who Christ is now in relation to the believer, and His “finished” sacrificial work in regards to, once for all, putting away their sins.

This thread is moving too fast for me to answer properly.

Furthermore, I am not sure of what all is being said. For example “A second Man, another Adam” is often seen as the relationship of Christ to Adam (St. Paul) in that Adam, as representative of the human species, brought sin into the world, while centuries later, Christ, True God and True Man, and thus representative of the human species offered the perfect atonement for human sins.

Then there is the issue of one’s personal sins. Regarding: “How do Purgatorial fires guarantee you won’t sin afterward?” When the soul is purified from the remains of personal sins, there is immediate entrance into heaven. God’s loving presence is so powerful that common sense tells us that there is no earthly reason to leave.

This morning I worked on an answer to a specific question about Purgatory on another thread. I adapted that post for this thread. It is quite possible you will find answers to your questions in my post 609. If you have questions, please ask.

For information about Catholic teaching on this subject, please read Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, Purgatory, paragraphs 1030 -1032; Communion of Saints, paragraphs 1474-1477; The Punishments of Sin, paragraphs1472-1473.
Please check out this link to the Catechism www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.