purgatory

[brb2]

Confession brings forgiveness which relates to the eternal effects of sin. This does not address the temporal effects of sin, however.

For example, David’s first son by Bathsheba still died (temporal effect) even though he had confessed and was forgiven for adultery and murder.

Contrite confession will accomplish what St. John writes in First John 1:6-9

If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and THE BLOOD OF JESUS his Son CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, he is faithful and just, and WILL FORGIVE OUR SINS AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

---

True enuf that David’s child died … AFTER David’s contrite confession. But, scripture teaches David served his ‘temporal’ penalty for mortal sins in this world. David’s many Psalms are testimony to his great grief and earthly penance …yet, also his complete forgiveness and restoration of his spirit by Christ. He also was denied building of Temple for God. And his son Absalom turned against him and was killed in battle. And David lived a rather ‘short’ life.

Do any Catholics really believe God/Christ has[will] put David thru an afterlife Purgatory ?

If we Catholics would learn to ‘confess’ as completely as David did, we too would learn to suffer the temporal effects of Post-baptismal sins in this life … and avoid the purgatorial fires of the next. St. John’s testimony above … says we are CLEANSED OF ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. I will not make the case against him … as he was the greatest saint the Church has ever known. The early Church also taught that the martyrs of first several centuries … were fully purged of all effects of sins in this life … and went straight to Paradise.

 

[yankee_drifter]

The scholar of the law asked Christ what he must do to inherit eternal life. Our Lord asked him what was written in the Law. The scholar summed it up perfectly and was told to do what he said and he would live. When the scholar pressed Him for more details, Christ then told the parable that showed him that mercy was a necessary part of obtaining eternal life. Faith is necessary, but faith doing something merciful is shown as what one must do to obtain eternal life by loving God and neighbor. Christ told him this Himself.

Remember, Christ also said about the Law: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” [Matthew 5:17-19]

The Law in and of itself cannot save, yet adherence to it is promised by Christ to save and to grant someone a place in the kingdom of Heaven. Does one part of Scripture contradict another? Or is it possible that Christ is telling us that the Law and the Gospel are not opposed to one another but work in conjunction to lead some of the chosen people to Him, that the Law prepared the hearts of the Jews who kept it (as Christ said it had to be kept) to accept Him as their Messiah?

What of the condemnations that the Apostles make about the Law? They are condemning those who claimed that Christians had to first become Jews in order to be baptized. The council meeting at Jerusalem had condemned that teaching and said that the Gentiles were exempt from keeping the Mosaic Law. Yet, some tried to teach it and the Apostles had to stress that the Law was only preparation for the Gospel and could not replace it. This is still Catholic Church teaching to this day.

Now, to the idea of works… James 2 made it clear that faith alone does not save and that faith without works is dead. This verse is especially explicit that works are not some sort of evidence of faith but actually play a role in our growth in faith: “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works.” [Jas. 2:22]

Yes, Christ fulfilled the law and we are now under grace. The Law was given in the OT as a type of “school teacher”, to show man what sin is: transgression against God’s law and the seriousness of it. It was to show man that he is incapable of obeying God’s Holy and perfect law. You break one Commandment, you’re guilty of breaking them all. That’s why Jesus needed to come and die by the shedding of His blood because man cannot do anything on his own. The apostle Paul admits he was doing the things he should not do, and the very thing he should be doing, he wasn’t. He called himself a wretched man because he understood the hopelessness of trying to obey the law.

James 2 is talking about Christians who are already saved, not about how to become a Christian, but what a true Christian looks like. A true born-again Christians bears fruit…the fruit of the Spirit. If one claims to be a christian, but fails to grow or shows no signs of bearing any fruit, then one must question whether this person is truly born again. James is not contradicting Paul who wrote in Eph 2:8,9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” One does not do good works in order to get saved, but because he IS saved. Therein lies the difference.

if Jesus taught, as you seem to believe, that the Law and the Gospel are not opposed to one another but work in conjunction, then why would the apostles respond to those who asked: what must I do to be saved? by saying: “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved”? (Acts 16). The apostles never added anything to the Gospel by adding any type of “works”. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of grace.

As for the lawyer in Luke 10, we must be careful to keep this in context. The lawyer asked this question to test Jesus. Set a trap. The Lawyer does not show humility by saying something like, “How can I do this, since I am an imperfect and sinful man?” Instead, he seeks to justify himself. He asked about a topic he knows best: law. However, the laws of man is different from the law of God and the world cannot understand the things of God because its spiritually discerned. What is often the case with experts in moral law is they think they have their own lives covered pretty well because they look at their actions, not their hearts. Jesus then goes on to talk about the “law” of love and then tells a parable about the good Samaritan. This parable teaches the impossibility of earning one’s salvation. The standard, which is perfect love, is too high.

 

[JacobG]

 

[JacobG]

Why does He do this?

Why does God chastise? Does not the Holy Scriptures say God chastises those whom he loves? Its to make us more Christ-like. Do not earthly fathers chastise their kids? They don’t stop loving the child or punish them forever do they?

But doesn’t He forgive *all *your sins the moment you become saved?

Yes he does. But everyday sins still need to be dealt with because they hurt our relationship with God, hinders our prayer life, and stunts our spiritual growth.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus then goes on to talk about the “law” of love and then tells a parable about the good Samaritan. **This parable teaches the impossibility of earning one’s salvation. ** The standard, which is perfect love, is too high.

Wow. You are adding a totally different meaning to this parable than what has been understood for 2000 years.

When we mention someone was a Good Samaritan–we ALL know what that means: someone who DID a good work. No one ever thinks of a GOOD SAMARITAN as someone who understands the “impossibility of earning one’s salvation.”

GOOD SAMARITAN law: to protect a health professional who does a GOOD WORK outside of his workplace. NOT to protect a health professional who understands “the impossibility of earning one’s salvation.”

GOOD SAMARITAN hospital: to provide GOOD WORKS to sick patients. NOT to emphasize that their mission is to promote “the impossibility of earning one’s salvation.”

GOOD SAMARITAN Shelter: to provide GOOD WORKS to the homeless. NOT to emphasize that their mission is to promote “the impossibility of earning one’s salvation.”

Can you provide us with any example of people using GOOD SAMARITAN to demonstrate “the impossibility of earning one’s salvation”? As in, “that person who just said the sinner’s prayer is now a GOOD SAMARITAN!”

 

[Thing]

Why does God chastise? Does not the Holy Scriptures say God chastises those whom he loves? Its to make us more Christ-like. Do not earthly fathers chastise their kids? They don’t stop loving the child or punish them forever do they?

But is that Just?

Yes he does. But everyday sins still need to be dealt with because they hurt our relationship with God, hinders our prayer life, and stunts our spiritual growth.

Whatabout non-everyday sins like the opposites of the Ten Commandments, murder, theft, and so on. Do they hurt our relationship and stunt our spiritual growth?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Rinnie,

If one commits blasphemy against the Holy Spirit they cannot be forgiven period. Not here or in the afterlife. That’s why its called the UNPARDONABLE sin. Its unforgivable. A true born-again Christian cannot commit this sin. This is only what unregenerate man is capable of because he is an enmity of God.

Can you be precise about what “blasphemy” means in this context?

 

[bmw8901]

James 2 is talking about Christians who are already saved, not about how to become a Christian, but what a true Christian looks like. A true born-again Christians bears fruit…the fruit of the Spirit. If one claims to be a christian, but fails to grow or shows no signs of bearing any fruit, then one must question whether this person is truly born again. James is not contradicting Paul who wrote in Eph 2:8,9 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” One does not do good works in order to get saved, but because he IS saved. Therein lies the difference.

Again, this is extremely close to what Catholic theology is. Do you recognize this? Put the word “works” in for fruit and is almost exactly what Catholics. Yes, we see the term born-again as meaning something different, but that’s essentially it. Do you understand this.

One does not do good works in order to get saved, but because he IS saved.

This is exactly what why teach! Not to be rude, but how many times do we have to explain this? And not just to you.

What is the difference between a Catholic view of Salvation and an Evangelical who believes you can lose your Salvation? (Other than how it is obtained) I don’t see a whole a lot of difference. Because for each, faith is required but also action is required. Fundamentally, if a Evangelical who says you can lose your salvation, it does come down to what you do (action) after you are saved. How come the Once Saved Always Saved crowd doesn’t accuse them of trying “earn” their way to Heaven?

Thanks

 

[Randy_Carson]

Contrite confession will accomplish what St. John writes in First John 1:6-9

If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not live according to the truth; but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and THE BLOOD OF JESUS his Son CLEANSES US FROM ALL SIN. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. IF WE CONFESS OUR SINS, he is faithful and just, and WILL FORGIVE OUR SINS AND CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

---

True enuf that David’s child died … AFTER David’s contrite confession. But, scripture teaches David served his ‘temporal’ penalty for mortal sins in this world. David’s many Psalms are testimony to his great grief and earthly penance …yet, also his complete forgiveness and restoration of his spirit by Christ. He also was denied building of Temple for God. And his son Absalom turned against him and was killed in battle. And David lived a rather ‘short’ life.

Do any Catholics really believe God/Christ has[will] put David thru an afterlife Purgatory ?

If we Catholics would learn to ‘confess’ as completely as David did, we too would learn to suffer the temporal effects of Post-baptismal sins in this life … and avoid the purgatorial fires of the next. St. John’s testimony above … says we are CLEANSED OF ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS. I will not make the case against him … as he was the greatest saint the Church has ever known. The early Church also taught that the martyrs of first several centuries … were fully purged of all effects of sins in this life … and went straight to Paradise.

I think you misunderstood the point of the David example. David suffered a temporal consequence of his sin EVEN THOUGH he was forgiven.

It is possible to suffer in this life instead of in the next, but again, the illustration was provided simply to prove that temporal punishment exists even when eternal punishment has been avoided through repentance.

Some of us may be like David; I suspect a whole lot more will face purification in purgatory, however.

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

Be careful now. God is not mocked. Nor did moondweller say we can keep sinning. That it doesn’t matter. God chastises the Christian who sins. And if he keeps willfully sinning and refuses to repent, he’s in trouble. There is a Judgment Day before Christ Himself. Unless we believe in the Jesus of the Bible, that he ALONE is our Mediator. He ALONE paid our sin debt in full and is the ONLY way to heaven. Unless you believe this, you are believing in another Jesus and another gospel, which the apostle Paul said isn’t ANOTHER (but a false one) because there is only ONE Gospel. We are NOT all guaranteed eternal life with God. Heaven is closed to those who do not accept God’s free gift of salvation. Who deny that Christ paid the full ransom for man’s sins, bore the punishment we deserve on His own body and that His blood sacrifice was perfect and complete, Your church works won’t get you to heaven. Mary cannot help get you there nor any dead saints. You alone, by yourself must come to the Cross, fully acknowledging that you are a sinner who cannot do a thing to save yourself. Your righteous acts are filthy rags before God.The wages of sin is death, There is no one righteous…no, not one! ALL have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. You break one Commandment, you’ve broken them ALL.This is all in the Scriptures. There is nothing YOU can do to save yourself, to win points with God, or to please a Holy God with your church rules and rituals or acts of piety. You MUST deal with your sins now. After you die, it is too late. You must bring those sins to Jesus. He alone fully Forgives. Come to Him with your hands empty and your heart open. ONLY the shed blood of the Son can satisfy God and cleanse you of all unrighteousness. Unless you do this and admit that you are trusting in other things besides Jesus Christ for your salvation and ask Jesus to forgive you and wash you in His blood, then, no, you are not going to heaven. Jesus will cast out many, many self professing christians who trusted in their good works and their church to save them.

Jacob if thats what you think I meant you did not understand what I was saying. I would never mock God. I know he paid for our sin, original sin, but I also know because we are human we have actual sin. And if we sin we must repent and confess our sins. Thats why Jesus left us the sacraments. And I also know we will have our own personal judgement on our last day. That is what I meant. MD does not agree with us. She does not believe that the Priest can give us forgiveness for mortal sin on this earth, and she does not believe that if we die with the stain of actual sin we cannot get into heaven until we have our final purfication. She denys this, that is what this thread is about.

 

[Des]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is when we attribute the work of the Holy Spirit to satan. We see an example of this in the NT when the pharisees witnessed Jesus performing a miracle and accused Him of doing the devil’s work. This is why Jesus said: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the **blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven **unto men.

Ridiculous! Goes against the entire message of the Gospel and leaves no hope to anyone who’s ever done this in their lifetime. The dangers of ss are coming to light now where one mistranslated passage can kill any hope for another.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unrepentant sin, period! A total and wilful rejection of the urging of the Holy Spirit to move one to repentance before Christ. Like saying: 'I don’t need you Holy Spirit, now leave me alone".

 

[JacobG]

Can you be precise about what “blasphemy” means in this context?

I believe the passage is quite clear what it means.

 

[JacobG]

Ridiculous! Goes against the entire message of the Gospel and leaves no hope to anyone who’s ever done this in their lifetime. The dangers of ss are coming to light now where one mistranslated passage can kill any hope for another.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unrepented sin, period! A total and wilful rejection of the urging of the Holy Spirit to move one to repentance before Christ. Like saying: 'I don’t need you Holy Spirit, now leave me alone".

Blasphemy against the Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22-30 and Matt 12:22-32. The term blasphemy can be defined as “defiant irreverence.” or to such sins as cursing God or willfully degrading things relating to God. It is also attributing some evil to God, or denying Him some good that we should attribute to Him.

But in Matt 12:31, the blasphemy is called “the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”. The Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the demon “Beelzebub”. In Mark 3:30 Jesus is very specific about what they did to commit “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.”

This blasphemy has to do with someone accusing Jesus of being demon-possessed instead of Spirit-filled. As a result, this particular incidence of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be committed by Christans today. Jesus Christ is not on earth, He is seated at the right hand of God. No one can witness Jesus Christ performing a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit. The closest example today would be attributing the miracle of a redeemed person’s changed life to Satan’s power rather than to the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The blasphemy of the Spirit today, which is the same as the unpardonable sin, is the state of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief. Continual rejection of the Holy Spirit’s promptings to trust in Jesus Christ is the unpardonable blasphemy against Him. Remember what is stated in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Further on in the same chapter is the verse “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36). The only condition wherein someone would have no forgiveness is if he is not among the “whoever believes in Him,” for it is he who “rejects the Son.”

 

[rinnie]

Rinnie,

If one commits blasphemy against the Holy Spirit they cannot be forgiven period. Not here or in the afterlife. That’s why its called the UNPARDONABLE sin. Its unforgivable. A true born-again Christian cannot commit this sin. This is only what unregenerate man is capable of because he is an enmity of God.

Okay Jacob. this is perfect maybe you can help me. First after you answer Randys question about blasphemy you can answer mine. Its real easy actually. I have asked md and she give never answers it.

Okay you said clear that blaphemy is not pardoned. Guess what Jacob I agree with you all the way. But its the other part of your statement that no one will address for me especially MD she like you will not answer. So you said (lets forget about what the sin is now, lets get back to the last part of your sentence.

NOT HERE OR IN THE AFTERLIFE. What does that mean? Also by the way MD disgrees totally with you. I think You can read what she wrote to me. But I do believe with you on that. I believe if you commit blasphemy here or in the after life you are screwed to.

But back to my point why would it say there is ONE sin that can’t be forgiven here or in the next world? Do you see what I mean now. Would you not take that to mean some sins in this world can be cleansed away in the next world.

Let me give you an expample. To be dead to sin completely. Is that not hard to do. It can be acomplished here, God says but he says its hard. Lets say I die tommorow but still have the urge to sin (you know I still want to do it my way) I would still not be made perfect with God not do you agree. So lets say I need a little fine tune before I go to see God. So would you not agree there is a place or state not here, but not in heaven, It cant be heaven, and not hell it can’t be hell. that I can get that fine tune. Where although I died with my sins forgiven that stain is still on me that needs to be washed away. If you agree with that I would need a place to get my final dip would you not agree. Get it dip, purged, to cleanse of anything (name removed by moderator)ure left inside of me. Now if you disagree we have only one option.

We must die completely perfect. PERFECT or we go to heaven or hell. We can not sit on our death bad and not even have one evil or bad throught. Like lets say you are lying on the bed your last moments and the nurse sticks you again with a needle. And you think I would love to tell you where to stick that needled right up your -----------boom your are dead. You never got to finish the word in your head even? What do you think about that? Is that what a person that was made Perfect in Christ would do? Or could you see a person human not being totally cleansed from sin doing that? Does that really seem that far out for you to believe that someone could think that as a last thought?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I believe the passage is quite clear what it means.

It wasn’t a trick question…why the snarky answer?

What do you believe the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is?

Oh…never mind. You gave a courteous reply to Des with this…I’ll study that.

 

[grannymh]

It can’t. Didn’t Jesus say that when He said:… but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. BTW a true Christian cannot commit this sin.

There are no limits to the mercy of God. Right? Christ did not limit His love when He hung bleeding on the cross. Right?

The thief (commonly known as the good thief) in the last moment of his life called out to Jesus. Right?.

We, too, can call out to Jesus with our last breath.

What happens when someone attributes the works of the Holy Spirit to Satin is that the very existence of God is denied. But as we all know atheists can acknowledge God and accept salvation from our Lord Jesus Christ even with their last breath. Remember the story about the “last hour” worker who received the same pay as the others?

Looking at the context of Jesus’ words, we see that the real warning refers to the hardness of the heart. While one can repent at any time, the ultimate blasphemy is often accompanied by the refusal to acknowledge the mercy of the true God. In other words, attributing the works of the true God, including mercy and salvation, to Satin, is flat out refusal of the salvation by the true God.

Please, read Matthew 12: 22-37 and Mark 3: 20-30.

Meditate on what is happening. I’m sure you have read these passages in the past because you knew right off that the ultimate sin is attributing the works of God to Satin. This time look at the people in the opening verses. Jesus is addressing the bitterly opposed. They have already decided with the hardness of their hearts. * But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man drives out demons only by the power of Beelzebul, the prince of demons.” *

Please note that the sin of using God’s name in vain is not the same as saying that God’s power is that of Satin’s. Yet, sins like cursing can lead to worse. Your example of a true Christian holds in this example. A true Christian knows that God will forgive him. A true Christian knows the difference between Christ and Beelzebul.

Christ used strong and true words in *Matthew *and Mark to match the evil words said against Him. It is a warning of the reality facing us when we harden our hearts.

To understand that God’s mercy is not bound by time, read the beginning of Mark chapter 3. Pause at verses 5 & 6. Note that according to the Pharisees, this was the wrong time for healing*.* All of us need to engrave the words of Jesus on our heart.

Jesus said to the man with the withered hand and is constantly saying to us “Stretch out your hand.” Even if we are dying, we need to stretch out our hand. We need to recognize our sins like the thief on the cross next to Jesus did – and call out to Jesus. Even in His last moments of life, Jesus heard and answered.

Blessings,
granny

All human life is meant for eternal life.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Blasphemy against the Spirit” is mentioned in Mark 3:22-30 and Matt 12:22-32. The term blasphemy can be defined as “defiant irreverence.” or to such sins as cursing God or willfully degrading things relating to God. It is also attributing some evil to God, or denying Him some good that we should attribute to Him.

But in Matt 12:31, the blasphemy is called “the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”. The Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the demon “Beelzebub”. In Mark 3:30 Jesus is very specific about what they did to commit “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.”

This blasphemy has to do with someone accusing Jesus of being demon-possessed instead of Spirit-filled. As a result, this particular incidence of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be committed by Christans today. Jesus Christ is not on earth, He is seated at the right hand of God. No one can witness Jesus Christ performing a miracle and then attribute that power to Satan instead of the Spirit. The closest example today would be attributing the miracle of a redeemed person’s changed life to Satan’s power rather than to the effects of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The blasphemy of the Spirit today, which is the same as the unpardonable sin, is the state of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief. Continual rejection of the Holy Spirit’s promptings to trust in Jesus Christ is the unpardonable blasphemy against Him. Remember what is stated in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Further on in the same chapter is the verse “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36). The only condition wherein someone would have no forgiveness is if he is not among the “whoever believes in Him,” for it is he who “rejects the Son.”

What would you think of the following explanation:

It is the refusal to ask for forgiveness, a refusal to repent. “Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, then, is that sin committed by the person who claims to have a ‘right’ to persist in evil—in any sin at all—and who thus rejects redemption”.

It is the Holy Spirit who convinces us of our sins for the purpose of repentance. So if he makes us aware of sin and we refuse to repent, then it becomes an unforgivable sin. Of course, if we do repent, then we can be forgiven.

There are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.
Good or not so good?

 

[paul_c]

Be careful now. God is not mocked. Nor did moondweller say we can keep sinning. That it doesn’t matter. God chastises the Christian who sins. And if he keeps willfully sinning and refuses to repent, he’s in trouble. There is a Judgment Day before Christ Himself.

Jacob, lets explore this point you made a little further. " If a Christian keeps willfully sinning and refuses to repent he’s in trouble. There is a judgment day before Christ himself".

Isn’t this exactly what we have been describing. A Christian will be evaluated by what he does, Isn’t that exactly what you are saying here? So if this is the case, how can salvation be by faith alone? Aren’t you admitting by this statement that there is more than just Faith that is required to attain to eternal life? In fact, isn’t this obvious?

 

[moondweller]

NOT HERE OR IN THE AFTERLIFE. What does that mean? Also by the way MD disgrees totally with you. I think You can read what she wrote to me. But I do believe with you on that. I believe if you commit blasphemy here or in the after life you are screwed to.

I have to cut in here, rinnie, for two reasons.

(1) You comprehended NOTHING of my response to you (which, btw, is not unusual - dialog with you is very frustrating).

(2) Unlike PRmerger, MD is not, I repeat, is not, a “she.” :tiphat: I’ve pointed that out to you before. But as I said, you don’t seem to comprehend what you read.

 

[Dominicanis]

Yes, Christ fulfilled the law and we are now under grace. The Law was given in the OT as a type of “school teacher”, to show man what sin is: transgression against God’s law and the seriousness of it.

The Law is actually more of a guide to lead us to the Teacher, Who is God. As for being “under grace”, there is no difference between what that seems to mean in this context and what the Catholic Church teaches; namely, that we are saved by God’s grace.

It was to show man that he is incapable of obeying God’s Holy and perfect law. You break one Commandment, you’re guilty of breaking them all. That’s why Jesus needed to come and die by the shedding of His blood because man cannot do anything on his own… (Paul) called himself a wretched man because he understood the hopelessness of trying to obey the law.

Jesus didn’t say it was impossible to keep the Law; He said do so and you will live. Period. And no teaching of the Catholic Church says that man can do anything on his own for his salvation, so I fail to see why that point was even raised.

As for what Paul said in Romans 7, he also said: “Wherefore the Law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good…I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the Law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the Law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.” He is talking about two different laws, the one of God which is good and the one of sin, which is inclination to sin resulting from our fallen state. He is telling us that we need Christ’s help to fight against the “law of sin”.

James 2 is talking about Christians who are already saved, not about how to become a Christian, but what a true Christian looks like… One does not do good works in order to get saved, but because he IS saved. Therein lies the difference.

I already said that we cannot boast in any good works we do after justification. James is indeed telling those who are already Christian that they must act on their faith or it is a dead faith. (More on that later.) As for doing “good works in order to get saved” I already said that good works cannot earn our salvation; failing to them can, however, forfeit it, as in Matthew 25 and James’s letter.

if Jesus taught, as you seem to believe, that the Law and the Gospel are not opposed to one another but work in conjunction, then why would the apostles respond to those who asked: what must I do to be saved? by saying: “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved”? (Acts 16). The apostles never added anything to the Gospel by adding any type of “works”. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is a gospel of grace.

“For the judgment is merciless to one who has not shown mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.” (Jas.2:13-19)

In other words, just saying you believe is not enough to save you. Even the demons believe in God. It does not save them. Even bowing and bending the knee and confessing will not save them. (Phil.2:9-11) Even confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord will not save them.

Having a “Gospel of grace” does not absolve us of our responsibility to obey God, nor does it allow us to ignore our neighbors’ needs. God sends His grace and expects us to cooperate with Him to do His Will. James makes this abundantly clear; believe in Christ and do His works and you will live. Do not and your faith is dead, and it will not save you.

As for the lawyer in Luke 10, we must be careful to keep this in context. The lawyer asked this question to test Jesus… This parable teaches the impossibility of earning one’s salvation. The standard, which is perfect love, is too high.

“Earning one’s salvation”? Salvation is a GIFT. Who are you talking to here, because it isn’t me. Nor is it addressing anything the Catholic Church teaches. Are you really responding to what the Church teaches or some anti-Catholic distortion of it?

Yours in Christ’s Love,
Dominicanis