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Carlan
Guest
This is our frustration, Randy, Many Prostestant simply pass over these hard passages of Paul’s teaching, can’t l look at them and ponder for very long. Gotta find the easier meaning. They some convince themselves they have
and come to Catholic Answers to witness the false doctrine.Well, got news for them. Catholics here CA are too well grounded in the truth of our Lord Jesus and what he commissioned his Apostles to hand on down to us until the last day.
Carlan
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moondweller
Guest
I didn’t ignore it, Randy. I answered this error TWICE, once way back on page 48 and then again on page 49. Literally,“For by one offering HE HAS perfected in perpetuity the sanctified” (Heb. 10:14). This verse states emphatically that it’s God Himself who has perfected, in perpetuity (for life) true believers who are presently and continuously sanctified, and that by the one time, past, completed event of the ONE (once for all) sacrifice of Jesus Christ.[/INDENT]And since the tense of verb should be more accurately translated “are being sanctified”, one wonders why you fail to appreciate that sanctification is a process and not a one-time event.
You’ve been shown this many times. Why do you ignore it?
What your mind seems to blank out on, Randy, are the phrases “He has perfected,” and, “by one offering.”
What the verse does NOT say is that by the personal efforts of the believer to achieve sinlessness or sacramental forgiveness in this life is he “being” perfected and sanctified. But rather, “BY one offering HE has perfected in perpetuity the sanctified” (i.e., the sanctified in the risen Christ, see Acts 26:18; 1 Cor. 1:2; 6:11; Heb. 2:11).
That’s the power God has through the cross. What you don’t understand (like the Jewish, religious leaders in Christ’s day) is the Scriptures and the power of God,
The ONLY way any true believer, now sanctified in the risen Christ, would ever go to your purgatory is if the risen Christ Himself is presently in purgatory. Is He Randy? There’s not even any Divine revelation of its existence.
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moondweller
Guest
Already covered this in a past post, Randy.
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moondweller
Guest
If there was a “need” for purgatory, Thing, then it would have been reveled in Scripture. It’s an extrabiblical, RC tradition borne out of unbelief in what God has the power to do “by one offering.”
We sin because we’re still in these yet unredeemed bodies. But even these sins were dealt with, once for all, judicially, “by one offering.”
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Carlan
Guest
I beg your pardon.
I would like to present the following to you. I do hope you will take the time to ponder it.
And please excuse me if this was presented to you earlier, however, if it was, it certainly won’t hurt to take it in again.
Code:
IS PURGATORY SCRIPTURAL?
******************************not found in Scripture, yet these doctrines are clearly taught there.
Likewise, the Bible teaches that an intermediate state of purification exists, we call it Purgatory. What is important is the name.
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Where does the Bible refer to the doctrine of PurgatoryAnd whoever says a word against the Son of
man will be forgiven: but whoever speaks
against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven,
either in this age or in the age to come…
Jesus implies that some sins can be forgiven in the next world.
Sin cannot be forgiven in Hell. There is no sin to be forgiven in
heaven. Any remission of sin in the next world can only occur in
Purgatory.
1Cor3:15
If any man’s work is burned up, he will
suffer loss, though he himself will be saved,
but only through fire.
1Pet3:18-20
For Christ also died for sins once for all,
the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might
bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh
but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and
preached to the spirits in prison, who formally did
not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of
Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few,
that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
1Peter4- 6
For this is why the Gospel was preached even
to the dead, that though judged in the flesh
like men, theY might live in the spirit like God.
Note that it is a prison for disobedient spirits, and yet they were
saved when Jesus preached to them. This is not hell, because no
one is saved from hell. This is probably not the ‘limbo of the fathers, “
(often called “Abraham’s bosom”, where the righteous souls of the
OT waited until Christ opened the gates of heaven), because this is a
place for disobedient spirits. One cannot imagine that St. Peter is describing the waiting place of such righteous OT saints as David and
John the Baptist when he mentions disobedient spirits.
St. Peter is describing a temporary state for disobedient souls who
were eventually saved. At the very least, it proves that a third place can
exist between heaven and hell. At the very most, it proves the Catholic
doctrine of Purgatory.
Code:
The clearest affirmation of the existence of Purgatory comes from theNT writers, and the councils of Hippo and Carthage( which authoritatively determined the”cannon” of inspired books of the Bible.)
2Maccabees 12:44-45
For he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again,
It would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he is looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall
asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered
from their sin.
Code:
It is impossible to aid souls in heaven ( they have no need )Praying for the dead presumes souls in a middle state where atonement for sin can be made.
This passage from Maccabees is a proof text.
It explicitly affirms an intermediate state where the faithful departed
make atonement for their sin.
2 Maccabees was so contrary to the “justification by faith alone” theology of the reformers that Martin Luther chose to remove it( along with six other books) from the Old Testament.
This takes us back to the question of the canon of the Bible, and that’s a
topic for an other thread. Carlan
San Juan Catholic Seminars.
Farmington, NM>‘
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Thing
Guest
What the Holy Spirit teaches the Apostles and the Church Christ founded after Jesus Christ died is not written in the Sacred Scriptures.
I remember reading somewhere that if you do not forgive your brother you will not be forgiven.
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SteveGC
Guest
I see. We “rob” God. We take His very nature away from Him, leaving Him with less than He once had. Interesting. We’ve stolen this “glory” and “applied it to ourselves”. So, not only are we capable of leaving God with less of something He once fully had, but we can also manipulate this stolen “thing” and wield it’s power on ourselves…I guess becoming gods ourselves, eh? I’m sure I’ve gotten it wrong, moon…seeing as how I can’t fathom “the depth of His grace”. As a dumb, shallow Catholic, though, I’m very interested in learning about this “glory theivery” we’re guilty of. Dumb it down for me, moon. Help me understand how “robbing Him of His glory” has any kind of intelligence behind it whatsoever. What precisely is IT that is His, that we take away from Him? What is “glory”, if it’s not His very nature that no one can take away from. What is “rob Him of glory” if it’s not your version of claiming we divert attention away from glorifying (worshipping and praising) Him?
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panevino
Guest
How do the relevant denominatiins reconcile this interpretation with the belief that free will is excluded from initiating the works prepared by god for us.
I’m no expert in protestatnt theology, the question just jumped out of the page and am interested.
I mean does that then mean god also elected level of reward in heaven for each by the works prepared.
I believe works are prepared for us and we strive to actually do them through our faith.
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panevino
Guest
Do u believe that the offering once for all and our declared belief in Jesus negate need
for sins to be forgiven?
After belief do we still need to be reconcilled after sin?
I am not baiting here, I am Interested.
Is antonement an action that is needed to open door to Seperate action of having sins forgiven?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Why would Jesus have to be in Purgatory in order to purify those who need final cleansing of the vestiges of sin?
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SteveGC
Guest
Really yankee? And what is the doctrine of salvation of these Christians you refer to? I hope that you would concede that if these “Christians” are led by the guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand Scripture and discern the truths of salvation based on that divine guidance, that there must be some evidence of what this revelation of salvation truly is, as well as some evidence of unanimity of this belief among these “Christians”. Or are you the only “Christian” you know? Are people who don’t share your precise view of how they are saved really Christian, yankee? If not, can they not say the same exact thing about you, in your disagreement with them? I wonder if you’ve ever considered just how many of your non-Catholic “brethren” actually agree with your essentials of the faith, or if it bothers you at all that some very very saintly men and women (many of them martyrs) throughout history would FULLY disagree with your theology, and would offer that your beliefs potentially put your soul in danger. Probably doesn’t phase you in the slightest, and that’s typical of post-reformation Christians. Just close your eyes to the rest of the non-Catholic Christian world that disagrees with you on essentials, and focus all your proselytization on us lost Catholics, right?
Hmm…nothing left to do…EXCEPT all those things you mentioned, eh? Pretty vague, yankee…what does “follow Him” mean? And do you concede, as you have suggested in the way you have phrased it here, that following Him is required for our salvation? Or is following Him an automatic response to our “true” belief? If so, why phrase it as you do, that it is something sinners have “left to DO”? I would imagine you’d probably like to rephrase it, huh?
Good thing purgatory is NOT a payment for our redemption, yankee. Honestly, do you and moon even absorb anything at all? Purgatory is FOR THE REDEEMED! Not TO redeem
Nice try, Mr. Chick. You call us when the shuttle lands.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Then point it out. What post #?
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moondweller
Guest
He wouldn’t. Nor would any true believer need to be there either, since they were cleansed of their sins by His blood and are presently sanctified (set apart) in the RISEN Christ.
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moondweller
Guest
Were the Epistles written before Christ died?
Ah-huh. Is your purgatory a place (time?) where (when?) sins are forgiven? Check the CCC.
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moondweller
Guest
No you’re not. Nor should you end your sentences with a preposition. Tell me Steve, what does this verse mean?Mal 3:8 “Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, ‘How have we robbed You?’ In tithes and offerings.”
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moondweller
Guest
Certainly.Acts 10:43 “Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 13:38 “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,”
Col 1:14 “…in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins”.But according to your teaching purgatory isn’t about forgiveness of sins.
Reconciliation to God is not forgiveness of sins. Reconciliation to God is changing one’s relationship with God; that of a once enemy to a friend.Rom 5:10-11 “For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.”
2 Cor 5:18 “Now all {these} things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,”
Col 1:22 “*…yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach…”*Christ’s work of reconciliation on the cross is applied to the believer, in full, at the time of belief in Him, and the true believer is now perfectly and completely reconciled to God.
I don’t understand this question. But it is interesting that the word “atonement” is not used in the N.T. In the O.T. the Hebrew word for atonement is “kaphar,” and means “to cover.” The animal sacrifices prescribed in the Mosaic Law could only “cover” sins. But the one, final sacrifice of the incarnate Son actually took away sins, once for all (1 Jn. 1:29; 1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21).Heb 9:26 “Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”
But your purgatory isn’t about forgiving sins. However, the above verses tell you why there’s no such thing as your purgatory found in the Scriptures.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
You wrote:
Why would it be necessary for Jesus to be in Purgatory for anyone else to go there?
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moondweller
Guest
You’ve got your answer, Randy. But it’s an answer that requires thought. Not for someone else to do the thinking for you.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
It’s your argument, not mine.
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