Purgatory......

[Bill_Pick]

I do not agree that some scriptures are only for certain people.

Are certain books of the New Testament exclusively directed to certain peoples , Jews, Gentiles, the circumcised, the uncircumcised, ? No. Scripture states: “Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all.”

 

[tweetymom]

Are certain books of the New Testament exclusively directed to certain peoples , Jews, Gentiles, the circumcised, the uncircumcised, ? No. Scripture states: “Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all.”

Amen to that.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by JonNC
usccb.org/comm/archives/2006/06-212.shtml
The issue, at least for me as a Lutheran, is not that there might be a moment of cleansing to enter Heaven, but that this cleansing can be affected by indulgences, or a “treasury of merits”. Jon

***Jon the evidence of Christ love is demonistrated in many ways. For Catholics, it is evident not simply in the Incarnation and Passion and Death of Christ. It is explicitily evident in the Seven Sacraments that Jesus Himself initiated and installed in the framework of His CC.

Four of the Seven Sacramets hold the possibility, if properly administered and received, to different degrees and in different ways, to forgive our sins. FOUR OUT OF SEVEN!

Baptism, Eucharist Reconcillation/Confession and the Last Rites. Additionally Christ through His Church [Mt. 16:18-19] permits “indulgences” which do not “forgive” or “absolve” sins, BUT do reduce, even in some cases, completely eliminate the latent effects of sin." [The pay back part of sin."] What do I mean?

Lets say I steal a $10.00 from you. I regret it and Confess my sins as directed by Christ in [John 20:20-23] and am “absolved” and “forgiven.” But does it end there? NO! you must be repaid for your loss. Until you are “made whole,” I cannot be made Whole.

But what about those sins that can’t “be paid back…” Lies, gossip, missing Mass, using birth control, having an affair and the like? How do we compesate for these and numerous other sins?

Some years ago when I was teaching a HS religion class on the Sacrament of Confession, without explaination, I passed out a bunch of 2’ long 2"x8" new boards. On one side I had writen “SB”. Then without explaination I passed out hammers and nails an told the kids to “work on out” BUT keep in mind I’m going to ask you to remove the nails. Many questions were asked what’s this about? I told them they’d soon find out.

OH! “Before you began look carefully at the condition of your boards.” Later when we removed the nails, I collected them [the nails], made a big deal of throwing them into the trash can, and then hid the trash can out of sight.

I then told then “tonights class in on the Sacrament of Confession.” The “SB” on your boards stood for “soul board.” Kinda like your soul looks like before you sin. When you sin, you do damage to your soul. Sort of like “driving nails” they leave a mark, so does sin leave a mark on your souls.

When you Confess your sins, God forgives you*. So like the nails they disapear!

NOW Look at your boards. Your sins have been removed and forgotten, BUT is your SOUL BOARD in the same shape it was before you sinned [pounded the nails in?]

NO! They are damaged. Before you can get into heaven the damage has to be repaired!

Then we talked about INDULGENCES. That work kinda like “wood putty you’d need to repair your boards.” Indulgences remove the after effects of sin, thus begains the process of our being perfected by God.

Idulgences can be partial or completely remove and repair all of the damage. [Termed “plenary Indulgences.”] Certain acts of charity, or pierty combined with [always conditional] Confession and prayers for our Popes spiritual well being, as well as the specified action are always necessary.

So this too is a manifestiation of God’s special love for His Catholic Church. Is abuse possible? Certainly! We are very human**

=Bill Pick;6329527]Are certain books of the New Testament exclusively directed to certain peoples , Jews, Gentiles, the circumcised, the uncircumcised, ? No. Scripture states: “Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all.”

Sorry friend but your missing several key points.

Logically and factually that Bible was specifically written for the people being addressed at the time of the incident that is being retold. The morals and teaching must and do apply to them is a highly specific and confined manner.

Further as the bible was completed before the end of the First Century, when ONLY ONE CHURCH co-existed with the SYNAGOGUE’s, one can know that as the OT leads to the NT, and the NT fulfills and perfects the OT, and further that NT was written in its entireity by men we know today to be Catholic, for there “flocks” which were too Catholic, we can understand that the Bible is: 1. A Catholic Book 2. Written [and compiled] By Catholics 3. for Catholics 4. therefore ONLY Catholics are in a position to properly understand and teach from it. And do so without error when they teach in complete conformity with the CC.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[tweetymom]

***Jon the evidence of Christ love is demonistrated in many ways. For Catholics, it is evident not simply in the Incarnation and Passion and Death of Christ. It is explicitily evident in the Seven Sacraments that Jesus Himself initiated and installed in the framework of His CC.

Four of the Seven Sacramets hold the possibility, if properly administered and received, to different degrees and in different ways, to forgive our sins. FOUR OUT OF SEVEN!

Baptism, Eucharist Reconcillation/Confession and the Last Rites. Additionally Christ through His Church [Mt. 16:18-19] permits “indulgences” which do not “forgive” or “absolve” sins, BUT do reduce, even in some cases, completely eliminate the latent effects of sin." [The pay back part of sin."] What do I mean?

Lets say I steal a $10.00 from you. I regret it and Confess my sins as directed by Christ in [John 20:20-23] and am “absolved” and “forgiven.” But does it end there? NO! you must be repaid for your loss. Until you are “made whole,” I cannot be made Whole.

But what about those sins that can’t “be paid back…” Lies, gossip, missing Mass, using birth control, having an affair and the like? How do we compesate for these and numerous other sins?

Some years ago when I was teaching a HS religion class on the Sacrament of Confession, without explaination, I passed out a bunch of 2’ long 2"x8" new boards. On one side I had writen “SB”. Then without explaination I passed out hammers and nails an told the kids to “work on out” BUT keep in mind I’m going to ask you to remove the nails. Many questions were asked what’s this about? I told them they’d soon find out.

OH! “Before you began look carefully at the condition of your boards.” Later when we removed the nails, I collected them [the nails], made a big deal of throwing them into the trash can, and then hid the trash can out of sight.

I then told then “tonights class in on the Sacrament of Confession.” The “SB” on your boards stood for “soul board.” Kinda like your soul looks like before you sin. When you sin, you do damage to your soul. Sort of like “driving nails” they leave a mark, so does sin leave a mark on your souls.

When you Confess your sins, God forgives you***. So like the nails they disapear!

NOW Look at your boards. Your sins have been removed and forgotten, BUT is your SOUL BOARD in the same shape it was before you sinned [pounded the nails in?]

NO! They are damaged. Before you can get into heaven the damage has to be repaired!

Then we talked about INDULGENCES. That work kinda like “wood putty you’d need to repair your boards.” Indulgences remove the after effects of sin, thus begains the process of our being perfected by God.

Idulgences can be partial or completely remove and repair all of the damage. [Termed “plenary Indulgences.”] Certain acts of charity, or pierty combined with [always conditional] Confession and prayers for our Popes spiritual well being, as well as the specified action are always necessary.

So this too is a manifestiation of God’s special love for His Catholic Church. Is abuse possible? Certainly! We are very human

Sorry friend but your missing several key points.

Logically and factually that Bible was specifically written for the people being addressed at the time of the incident that is being retold. The morals and teaching must and do apply to them is a highly specific and confined manner.

Further as the bible was completed before the end of the First Century, when ONLY ONE CHURCH co-existed with the SYNAGOGUE’s, one can know that as the OT leads to the NT, and the NT fulfills and perfects the OT, and further that NT was written in its entireity by men we know today to be Catholic, for there “flocks” which were too Catholic, we can understand that the Bible is: 1. A Catholic Book 2. Written [and compiled] By Catholics 3. for Catholics 4. therefore ONLY Catholics are in a position to properly understand and teach from it. And do so without error when they teach in complete conformity with the CC.

Love and prayers,
Pat

I am glad Gods word was written for all and I am one of them.

 

[rinnie]

I do not agree that some scriptures are only for certain people.

I also agree with you there tweety. The scripture is for us all to read, And once we understand what God is saying and we really concentrate on them, they can come alive in our everday life. Don’t you agree

 

[tweetymom]

I also agree with you there tweety. The scripture is for us all to read, And once we understand what God is saying and we really concentrate on them, they can come alive in our everday life. Don’t you agree

You betcha they do as long as you don’t have someone tell you what to believe.

 

[PJM]

=tweetymom;6330212]I am glad Gods word was written for all and I am one of them.

Hi tweetymon, good to hear from you again.

**Mark.4: 33"With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it;" ** [That means able to understand it.

**John.9: 27 "He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you too want to become his disciples?”

**Luke.8: 12 **"The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. And as for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bring forth fruit with patience. But he said to them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”

Luke.11: 28 "But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” :clapping:

Mark 4: 20 “But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”

 

[tweetymom]

Hi tweetymon, good to hear from you again.

**Mark.4: 33"With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it;" ** [That means able to understand it.

**John.9: 27

"He answered them, “I have told you already, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you too want to become his disciples?”

**Luke.8: 12 **"The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. And as for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bring forth fruit with patience. But he said to them, “My mother and my brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.”

Luke.11: 28 "But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” :clapping:

Mark 4: 20 “But those that were sown upon the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”

Very good scriptures.

 

[kage_ar]

You betcha they do as long as you don’t have someone tell you what to believe.

We submit to the Authority of Christ’s Church in all matters.

 

[tweetymom]

We submit to the Authority of Christ’s Church in all matters.

As long as you are pleased in what you believe:thumbsup:

 

[coosa]

No you are correct Peter never added any obligations on us, how could he, he was not God, he only obeyed God and did what was asked of him.

And you are correct he never acted to be infallible, like the Pope today. He never acts it either. Only when God is working through him by the Power of the HS, But you seem to reject that Power given to the Pope and Peter by Jesus. But tell me why did God say to Peter, and only Peter, Feed My Sheep, Are you saying Peter did not have a special obligation? If not why did Jesus ask that of him?

He is telling Peter to “feed my sheep” to tell them the news of the Son. What goes for Peter goes for all. Christ seems to work that way. Our Lord give each of us and us alone opportunities to feed the faith of our fellow men. We usually and sadly assume it is someone elses job. Obligation or responsibility? Peter was saved by Christ not by any obligation or responsibility that he may or may not have meet. Christ gives us the hope and assurance of forgiveness with no strings attached. It is true we have an obligation to reflect it in our lives. How we do this is not set by any specified actions by Peter or anyone. We alone hold the keys. You believe differently, bless you.

 

[coosa]

This is called an indulgence.

And indulgence is a remission before God of the temportal punishment die to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven which the faithful christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the actions of the church which as the minister of redemption dispenses and applies authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the Saints.

An indulgece is partial or plenary according as it removes either part of all of the temporal punishment due to sin., The faithful can gain them for themself or apply them to the dead.

What this means is as Christians we do not only confess our sins, we must do acts of penace which is called repent. It is done by works of charity, by prayer and various practices of penance to completely put off the old man and put on the new man.

Like for instance say I was a heavy drinker, and I quit drinking and asked the church for forgiveness, I am forgiven but maybe for an indulgence I will work with other people who drink and help them. Or help the children of the parents that are getting help. It like a way of making up for my mistake and making a good out of a bad in a way.

Or lets say I am not in a state of mortal sin at this time, I can do acts of Charity for others and ask God to use my good to help maybe a family member in a way. THere is really no difference between prayer or charity. Instead of praying for a member who is dead or alive I make my prayer come alive lets say.

An example, instead of praying for my old neighbor who has nothing, and her house if falling apart, I raise money, or take my own and do repairs. But you like keep it to yourself.

Like we believe in Purgatory so we know we our prayers can help pray them out. Because if GOd accepts our prayers for others here, why not there. But instead of praying all the time we do things. Like work at the Church, food bank, etc. And offer these good works up to God for our loved ones.

Read the book of Job. Job was faithful to God. Read the first chapter you will see how his kids were living a life of sin. But how Jobs prayers and Jobs faithfullness to God was rewarded.

God knew Jobs great love, and faith and when Job asked God to have mercy on his kids God did. Job prayed his children into heaven. We believe that if we are faithful, and good, and do Gods work he will answer us also.

We believe that purgatory is a place between here and heaven. But not hell. If you die with sin but have been forgiven you still must be wiped clean of all of that sin, and that is what purgatory does, The sin is wiped away, but the new person must come out of the purging now. ANd that is the desire to never sin again, thats what makes us capable of heaven. That is what purgatory does. It takes the old man and turns him into the new man. See when you die, you cannot only be free from sin, that desire from sin must be gone also. Thats what purgatory does. That is why we as Catholics believe very few people leave this world and leave completelty all the desires behind. It is possible, but very hard.

This is simply, to me, an organization using a basic doubt of God’s forgiveness among the flock to extort power reserved only for God to attain wealth and power. Which they were sucessful in doing. This was eventually revealed and challanged. Sometimes, it seems that we are ALL guilty of worshipping religions or demoninations of religions more than God. It is so shameful.

 

[Monte1945]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

You got it my love; And here is another thing, The more you study the things you do not understand the quicker you grow in your faith also. Thats what happened to me. And I got some REAL good news for you. The Church always comes up on top! Thats the Glory of it

yes, one of my favorite thoughts is:

Some of God’s attributes are too wonderful to understand but even if they remain darkness to our intellect let them be sunshine to our souls. (Author unknown)

 

[1beleevr]

Okay tweety lets do this another way.

The Priest can give us absolution from our sin, that power was given to him by God through scripture. Do you claim to be able to give me absolution for my sin.

The Priest can Baptise me and marry me in the CC. Can You?

The Priest can give me the anointing of the sick can you?

I do not have the power given to me from high to do these things. And I believe in Jesus Christ with my whole heart and soul. Now can you tell me you have the power to do all of the above?

]

I agree with tweetymom; that all scripture is for all believers! And as far as her statement of Jesus being in her heart, if we use the catholic method of interpretation; John 14:20,24 could tell all of us that Jesus is in our hearts if we are believers! I don’t believe that mortal men can give me absolution from my sinsBesides, Jesus did not tell us to go to confession, it is a personal choice!

 

[rinnie]

This is simply, to me, an organization using a basic doubt of God’s forgiveness among the flock to extort power reserved only for God to attain wealth and power. Which they were sucessful in doing. This was eventually revealed and challanged. Sometimes, it seems that we are ALL guilty of worshipping religions or demoninations of religions more than God. It is so shameful.

Speak for yourself. I have never worshiped a religion or demonination of religions more that God. I have always worshiped the One and Only Jesus Christ. The RCC. The same Church that Paul was persecuting. Jesus stated that he is the Church, that they are one in the same. I am not ashamed I am proud very proud of the RCC the living Christ.

 

[1beleevr]

This is simply, to me, an organization using a basic doubt of God’s forgiveness among the flock to extort power reserved only for God to attain wealth and power. Which they were sucessful in doing. This was eventually revealed and challanged. Sometimes, it seems that we are ALL guilty of worshipping religions or demoninations of religions more than God. It is so shameful.

]

Good answer, coosa!

 

[PJM]

As long as you are pleased in what you believe:thumbsup:

***Beig in agreement with and pleased to hold th position is certainly a PLUS

However it is never a necessary or essential element

We obey because is the right thing to do.

Love and prayers

Pat,***

 

[rinnie]

]

I agree with tweetymom; that all scripture is for all believers! And as far as her statement of Jesus being in her heart, if we use the catholic method of interpretation; John 14:20,24 could tell all of us that Jesus is in our hearts if we are believers! I don’t believe that mortal men can give me absolution from my sinsBesides, Jesus did not tell us to go to confession, it is a personal choice!

Pardon me. So are you saying that the Advocate the Holy Spirit did not come to the Church at Pentecost like Jesus promised, Are you saying that Jesus did not say I WILL GIVE YOU THE WORDS. Jesus did tell us to confess, repent and be Baptised. It was revealed to Peter by the Advocate the Holy Spirit.

Could you show me scripture that says we do not have to repent, and confess our sins it is a personal choice. Thanks. And if you do not accept the teachings of Peter or the Church who do you listen to? And where do you receive the word of God?

 

[rinnie]

Very good scriptures.

But tweedy would that not be what you would consider someone telling you what to believe. Is that not the scripture according to Luke?

 

[1beleevr]

***Jon the evidence of Christ love is demonistrated in many ways. For Catholics, it is evident not simply in the Incarnation and Passion and Death of Christ. It is explicitily evident in the Seven Sacraments that Jesus Himself initiated and installed in the framework of His CC.

Four of the Seven Sacramets hold the possibility, if properly administered and received, to different degrees and in different ways, to forgive our sins. FOUR OUT OF SEVEN!

Baptism, Eucharist Reconcillation/Confession and the Last Rites. Additionally Christ through His Church [Mt. 16:18-19] permits “indulgences” which do not “forgive” or “absolve” sins, BUT do reduce, even in some cases, completely eliminate the latent effects of sin." [The pay back part of sin."] What do I mean?

Lets say I steal a $10.00 from you. I regret it and Confess my sins as directed by Christ in [John 20:20-23] and am “absolved” and “forgiven.” But does it end there? NO! you must be repaid for your loss. Until you are “made whole,” I cannot be made Whole.

But what about those sins that can’t “be paid back…” Lies, gossip, missing Mass, using birth control, having an affair and the like? How do we compesate for these and numerous other sins?

Some years ago when I was teaching a HS religion class on the Sacrament of Confession, without explaination, I passed out a bunch of 2’ long 2"x8" new boards. On one side I had writen “SB”. Then without explaination I passed out hammers and nails an told the kids to “work on out” BUT keep in mind I’m going to ask you to remove the nails. Many questions were asked what’s this about? I told them they’d soon find out.

OH! “Before you began look carefully at the condition of your boards.” Later when we removed the nails, I collected them [the nails], made a big deal of throwing them into the trash can, and then hid the trash can out of sight.

I then told then “tonights class in on the Sacrament of Confession.” The “SB” on your boards stood for “soul board.” Kinda like your soul looks like before you sin. When you sin, you do damage to your soul. Sort of like “driving nails” they leave a mark, so does sin leave a mark on your souls.

When you Confess your sins, God forgives you***. So like the nails they disapear!

NOW Look at your boards. Your sins have been removed and forgotten, BUT is your SOUL BOARD in the same shape it was before you sinned [pounded the nails in?]

NO! They are damaged. Before you can get into heaven the damage has to be repaired!

Then we talked about INDULGENCES. That work kinda like “wood putty you’d need to repair your boards.” Indulgences remove the after effects of sin, thus begains the process of our being perfected by God.

Idulgences can be partial or completely remove and repair all of the damage. [Termed “plenary Indulgences.”] Certain acts of charity, or pierty combined with [always conditional] Confession and prayers for our Popes spiritual well being, as well as the specified action are always necessary.

So this too is a manifestiation of God’s special love for His Catholic Church. Is abuse possible? Certainly! We are very human

Sorry friend but your missing several key points.

Logically and factually that Bible was specifically written for the people being addressed at the time of the incident that is being retold. The morals and teaching must and do apply to them is a highly specific and confined manner.

Further as the bible was completed before the end of the First Century, when ONLY ONE CHURCH co-existed with the SYNAGOGUE’s, one can know that as the OT leads to the NT, and the NT fulfills and perfects the OT, and further that NT was written in its entireity by men we know today to be Catholic, for there “flocks” which were too Catholic, we can understand that the Bible is: 1. A Catholic Book 2. Written [and compiled] By Catholics 3. for Catholics 4. therefore ONLY Catholics are in a position to properly understand and teach from it. And do so without error when they teach in complete conformity with the CC.

Love and prayers,
Pat

I agree with about half(actually less) of what you said! I don’t believe that catholics are the only ones who can understand and teach it Otherwise I would be a catholic