Purgatory......

[PJM]

=1beleevr;6335374]

God is not and does not lie, but He did establish a new covenant with us when Christ died on the Cross and removed the veil which had separaed man from Himself! So to use scripture which deals with sin and burnt offerings and the priest representing the people to justify going to confession today, is pointless! And you of all people(being a catholic) should know all about accepting only the passages you agree with And I don’t know, is the catholic church always wrong? And who are you to say that I deny God’s Word?

Wecome to our discussion. perhaps you missed these?

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Now friend, is this better for you? What’s your response now?

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[1beleevr]

Not Everyone Who Says “Lord, Lord” Will Enter the Kingdom
Matthew 7:21-23

You have made a straw man. I haven’t said that you can’t confess to God. You do when you go to confession. 1 John 1:9 does not say how you confess. The Church teaches that you can make a perfect contrition.

This is still a thread about purgatory. It is just rubbish to say not enough evidence and that verses don’t apply. I could say the same about the beliefs you have presented.

]

Ther seems to be a lot of rubbish on both sides of the aisle! And it is of no importance or consequence how you feel about my faith; I have to be concerned about what God thinks of me! What I am saying, is that you have failed miserably to convince me that purgatory is a real process

 

[1beleevr]

Is this your answer

]

Sounds good to me!

 

[1beleevr]

I thank you rinnie. I will answer either way pm or here when I come home. It is a bit long and I do not have a proiblem with my testamony. I am not ashamed of my life with Christ nor do I have any axe to grind with the CC or anyother Church.I havr shared it and have really been bashed. But that is ok I love Jesus and He is my main reason in life. God Bless

]

And I love you bothin spite of our differences in belief!

 

[tweetymom]

]

Ther seems to be a lot of rubbish on both sides of the aisle! And it is of no importance or consequence how you feel about my faith; I have to be concerned about what God thinks of me! What I am saying, is that you have failed miserably to convince me that purgatory is a real process

Me too dear Brother

 

[1beleevr]

D o you know what Jesus is saying in the word CATHLOIC

Far as I know, Jesus never said the word catholic! Duh!

 

[Cursilista]

Purgatory according to the website scripture catholic. First Scripture then writings of early church fathers are used to explain each teaching

Purgatory

Scripture

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew “sheol,” meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord’s resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

Purification after death

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for “suffer loss” in the Greek is “zemiothesetai.” The root word is “zemioo” which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death

Tradition / Church Fathers

I. The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory

“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just.” Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).

“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more–not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

Again these are but a few of the scriptures and writings on this website concerning purgatory

 

[PJM]

=coosa;6335508]FREE WILL ANYONE? Is there a thread on free will? If not how do you start one?

1 Go to Forums

2 Select the Form group you wish to be in. I think we are in NON Catholics?

1. Go to the bottom of the page and select “New Post”
2. Ennter your topic name “Free Will?”
3. Introduce your topic ususally with a question

Then SUBMIT

PLEASE PM me an let m know when, I’d like to be in on the discussion.

Thanks

PJM

 

[PJM]

=coosa;Sorry. I don’t find anything like Purgatory promised to Christians anywhere. Does the Church have the power to release souls from purg. or not?

NO! That like forgiveness of sin is God’s domain

od however does offer us a lesser role. By out “intercessary prayers” [prayers on there behalf] God will shorten there time there. It remains God’s decision.

COPIED from an eariler Forum string
"Re: Purgatory: Explain Purgatory to an Evangelical

Hello,

I am a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism, and Purgatory is one of the first doctrines I accepted while still a Protestant. I hope I can be of some help.

C.S. Lewis gives an explanation something like this one:

When we die, we will stand before God and He will say to us, “You are free to enter here; no one will say anything about your condition, but would you like to clean up first?” We will look down and see that we are covered in dirt and scabs, that our clothes are torn and tattered, and (worst of all!) that our hair is an absolute mess. So, we will say, “Clean me, please!” The process of peeling off the dirty clothes, scouring off the grime and dirt, picking the scabs off the healed wounds, having our hair made neat, and being fitted with the finest clothing will be that process of purgatory.

No one is perfect when he dies, even though we all ought to strive for perfection in this life. Inevitably, bad habits formed and vices buried deep will not be gone at the moment of death. However, in Heaven we will all be perfect. Purgatory is the process of working out those imperfections. This is not a punishment any more than the training of a dog is a punishment; it is an education, and we will beg for it so that the lens through which we see God (nothing less than our whole soul) may be perfectly clean and bright in order that we may see Him as He really is.

As a Protestant, this explanation made a lot of sense to me. I hope it helps."

If this is insuficient let me know, and I’ll provide further explaination. PJM

 

[PJM]

=MuddyRocker;6336220]If God thought we needed a place like purgatory for cleansing, then why would he allow Jesus to die for us? Why not just send everyone to purgatory after they die?

***Thank you for asking. “You just hit the nail on the head” so to speak.

Why God became Incarnate God/man is a very complex issue. But why He FREELY choice to die fo us is a bit simpler.

If one goes back and reviews the story of Creation, and man [and womens] first denial of God, and there SIN; one of the consequences was that heaven was barred. Mankind had breached the God/man relationship so severly that God in Divine Justice could nolonger make heaven available to us.

Because God had presented Adam and Eve with EVERYGOOD THING, and asked only one thing in return. SIMPLE BUT COMPLETE OBEDIENCE to GOD’S WILL. It was not simply eating the apple from the ONE forbidden tree, it was DENIAL OF GOD HIMSELF, DENIAL OF GOD’S WILL, that is the real issue.

Because of the severity of the breech in trust and relationship was so severe, ONLY GOD COULD MAKE SUFICIENT AMMENDS.

So The Father sent the Son to do PRECISELY THAT: MAKE AMMENDS SUFFICIENT TO REOPEN THE GATES OF HEAVEN. To once again and for all time to make heaven CONDITIONALLY POSSIBLE [and the condition is basicaly the same . Know and do the [entire and complete] WILL OF GOD.

And that friend is why:*

God became man

God died and rose from the dead that we too might die and rise from the dead

God founded a new Covenant, a new Faith [set of beliefs and practices] and a new Church [all SINGULAR] Mt.16:15-19]

Christ personally choose the leader of this Church [Peter] gave him the “keys to the kingdom of heaven” and all the authority to govern that the church needed.

So the answer to your question is : Christ died precisely to reopen the gates of heaven, making POSSIBLE, conditionally our access and our personal salvation.**

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Bill_Pick]

Far as I know, Jesus never said the word catholic! Duh!

And your point is , He may have never said Car are air plane. May have never said Baptist.but we have a lot of them any way…I know He never said Protestant but we have a lot of them also
So I do not know what you are trying to say.Did He ever say Bible I dont think so but may be you know

 

[tweetymom]

And your point is , He may have never said Car are air plane. May have never said Baptist.but we have a lot of them any way…I know He never said Protestant but we have a lot of them also
So I do not know what you are trying to say.Did He ever say Bible I dont think so but may be you know

The point is that Christ’s church is all believers not just the CC. God Bless.

 

[Bill_Pick]

The point is that Christ’s church is all believers not just the CC. God Bless.

Thats a good point and for 1500 the only believes where all Cathloic,we did not have a protestant in the world

 

[PJM]

=tweetymom;6339731]The point is that Christ’s church is all believers not just the CC. God Bless.

***Hi Tweety,

So I guess they were on there lunch break for the FIRST 1500 YEARS ***

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by adrift
Not Everyone Who Says “Lord, Lord” Will Enter the Kingdom
Matthew 7:21-23

You have made a straw man. I haven’t said that you can’t confess to God. You do when you go to confession. 1 John 1:9 does not say how you confess. The Church teaches that you can make a perfect contrition.

This is still a thread about purgatory. It is just rubbish to say not enough evidence and that verses don’t apply. I could say the same about the beliefs you have presented.

The Church sys make act act of PERFECT Contrition AND, [don’t omit the AND] then GO TO CONFESSION AT THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY. Can’t have one without the other

CCC 1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible.

 

[tweetymom]

***Hi Tweety,

So I guess they were on there lunch break for the FIRST 1500 YEARS ***

Maybe. I wasn’t there.

 

[PJM]

TO: EdOsiecki,

Hi Ed,

I can’t shake the thought that you are amazed that I and others, even after firmly establising a personal relationship with Christ, can and do sin. As John 1: 8-10 tells us, “all men” or either sinners or liars. [God willing not mortally!]

To deny this is to ignore how and precisely why God Created us exactly as He did, All of humanity is blessed with a mind, intellect and freewill.

Perhaps [but unlikely] our intellects and minds are given to us for reasons other than primarily to recogonize good and evil, and then apply our freewill in making our personal choices?

But freewill is given precisely in order for us to:

1. Find God
2. Do Good
3. Avoid Evil. and bad things
4. Love God or ignore God
5. Do God’s Will, partially, completely or not at all

Intellect, minds, freewills are all SPIRITAUL THINGS, like God Himself.Unlike a brain for example they cannot be quantified. Size, shape, color, weight.

Because of the uniqueness of the attributes: FACT; no two human beings throughout all of history are exactly the same, one can know these gifts are from God, and given for precise reasons.

If mankind, even after establishing relationship with Christ, were not prone to, and did not at times freely choose to sin; there simply would be no reason for these gitfts, these attributes to exist.

BUT sin does exist, we are sinners, Priest do have special powers and authority the rest of us do NOT have, and the Sacraments were instituted by Jesus Himself, fully aware of how He made us. In both the OT and NT. *

We are to prove our love for God by freely choosing to avoid evil and do good. To return love for love given to us by God. If we could not [and do not sin] and beg forgiveness, such a love returned would lose much of its merit. It is the imperect trying to be perfect that most clearly manifest our love for Christ. Matt.5: 48]" You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect"

Love and prayers,
Pat*

 

[MuddyRocker]

***Thank you for asking. “You just hit the nail on the head” so to speak.

Why God became Incarnate God/man is a very complex issue. But why He FREELY choice to die fo us is a bit simpler.

If one goes back and reviews the story of Creation, and man [and womens] first denial of God, and there SIN; one of the consequences was that heaven was barred. Mankind had breached the God/man relationship so severly that God in Divine Justice could nolonger make heaven available to us.

Because God had presented Adam and Eve with EVERYGOOD THING, and asked only one thing in return. SIMPLE BUT COMPLETE OBEDIENCE to GOD’S WILL. It was not simply eating the apple from the ONE forbidden tree, it was DENIAL OF GOD HIMSELF, DENIAL OF GOD’S WILL, that is the real issue.

Because of the severity of the breech in trust and relationship was so severe, ONLY GOD COULD MAKE SUFICIENT AMMENDS.

So The Father sent the Son to do PRECISELY THAT: MAKE AMMENDS SUFFICIENT TO REOPEN THE GATES OF HEAVEN. To once again and for all time to make heaven CONDITIONALLY POSSIBLE [and the condition is basicaly the same . Know and do the [entire and complete] WILL OF GOD.

And that friend is why:***

God became man

God died and rose from the dead that we too might die and rise from the dead

God founded a new Covenant, a new Faith [set of beliefs and practices] and a new Church [all SINGULAR] Mt.16:15-19]

Christ personally choose the leader of this Church [Peter] gave him the “keys to the kingdom of heaven” and all the authority to govern that the church needed.

So the answer to your question is : Christ died precisely to reopen the gates of heaven, making POSSIBLE, conditionally our access and our personal salvation.

Love and prayers,
Pat

Thank you.
That is a pretty good explanation of why Christ died for us. (Well, except for the implications of your statement about Peter) But it does not explain why we need purgatory in addition to Christ’s sacrifice?

 

[MuddyRocker]

Thats a good point and for 1500 the only believes where all Cathloic,we did not have a protestant in the world

Hi Bill, no offense, but there was a good reason everyone was Catholic then. I probably don’t have to type the next sentence?

 

[PJM]

=MuddyRocker;6342448]Thank you.
That is a pretty good explanation of why Christ died for us. (Well, except for the implications of your statement about Peter) But it does not explain why we need purgatory in addition to Christ’s sacrifice?

I’m not sure with YOUR understanding of the bible that it will make sense to you? But I leave the heavy stuff for he Holy Spirit.

If the bible is true, all of it has to be true.

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

***Because of the way God Created us, with a mind, intellect and freewill, all SPIRITUAL GIFTS, one is able to know God, and know God’s Will for them [when pride does not block out understanding].

These three gifts have the precise purpose of allowing us to freely chose to demonistrate our love of and for God. [Which defines why we are Created Isaiah 43:7, 21] They also permit one to chose to do so completely, partially or not at all. Because God permits temptation to sin, in order that we MIGHT give evidence of our love for Him, man at times fails, and sins result.

By-pasing for the moment how sins are fogiven [Jn.20:20-23], even after God forgives our sins; there remains in Dvine Justice, a “payback factor for every committed sin”

For example [space limits require that I’m brief] I steal $10.00 from you. I Regret it, Confess it, promise not to do it again, and receive Absolution, and God forgives me. End of story? NO! I must pay you back! Before things are even.

Example two: Sam has an affair on his wife. He regrets it, Confesses, commits to not doing it again, so absolution is gratnted and again God forgives Sam his sin. Sam dies on the way home. End of story? NO! Sam has yet to make ammends for this sin.

So what happens?

**Lev.22: 21 ***“And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfil a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.”

Similarly, we too MUST BE PERFECT, and when necesary perfected, before being allowed access to heaven .Matt. Matt.5: 48] “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect”; 1 Pet.1: [15] but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Because is Perfect in every good way; God cannot and will not tolerate (name removed by moderator)erfection in His Heavenly Presence.

So before Sam can get into heaven, Sams soul must be made perfect. [Don’t jump the gun on me here] The is the precise reason God permits a place of repayment and purification. It goes beyond the sin themselves, directly to Divine justice.

Because God loves us He has ways for us to repay this debt while alive and even after death [because our souls live on]. In life, prayer, charitable works, and sacrifices all work towards repayment. Only God can track the balances. After death, others intercessory prayers can be applied for this purpose.

Because every sin has a latent effect, that varies in the nature and circumstances of the sin, God who BEING GOD MUST BE, HASTO BE completly and objectively fair and just, and therefore CANNOT [absolutely impossible] treat everyone the same who dies. Ca’t happen!**