Purgatory......

[1beleevr]

This is my own analogy so it probably will fall way short and be swiftly torn apart.

Jesus is our key to the door that opens the Sacraments to us. Without the door being open we would not be able to access the saving graces of Baptism.

Jesus is our door to Heaven(John 14:6-7)

 

[1beleevr]

Jesus Said

He didn’t say confess your sins, or repent and then get baptized. Jesus said that you had to be born again of water and Spirit. He commanded the apostles

Jesus didn’t tell them that they had to repent before they were baptized.

His baptism was not the Sacramental baptism of Jesus. It did not forgive sins.
If you are claiming that baptism does not forgive sins, then you are contradicting scripture

Did Jesus tell us what order we were to be born again? Of the water firs, or of the Spirit? And what does it mean to be born of the Spirit? Jesus does tell people in Matthew 4:17, to repent, for the Kingdom of God is near.Petr in Acts 2:38, did tell the people to repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, in order to breceive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same promise for us today. I know that I have the Holy Spirit in me, and He is leading me into Spirit and Truth! And for the record, Colossians 1:14 from the King James Version, reads,“In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins.” So, did Paul misspeak? Does the blood of Christ wash away our sins?2Corinthians 5:21, says that Hebecame sin, who knew no sin.

 

[1beleevr]

Jesus Said

He didn’t say confess your sins, or repent and then get baptized. Jesus said that you had to be born again of water and Spirit. He commanded the apostles

Jesus didn’t tell them that they had to repent before they were baptized.

His baptism was not the Sacramental baptism of Jesus. It did not forgive sins.
If you are claiming that baptism does not forgive sins, then you are contradicting scripture

And yet, Peter, who allegedly was the first pope of the catholic church, and supposedly was acting in the stead of Christ, told people to repent and then be baptized(Acts 2:38)

 

[1beleevr]

I always show repect for my Holy Father, who is not the pope, but the Almighty Living God,.And your air of arrogance is very unattractive

 

[Bill_Pick]

I always show repect for my Holy Father, who is not the pope, but the Almighty Living God,.And your air of arrogance is very unattractive

Let it its just 1beleer letting off steam.

 

[kempo1]

i,ll bet if you would say something about his preacher, oh boy then he would get upset, but we wont do that.

 

[kempo1]

Purgatory, 1 Cor. vs 11-15 explains how your works will be tested by fire at judgement. So aparrently you do not go straight to heaven. Vs. 15 says that if someones work is burned up, that one will suffer a loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire. Pretty plain and simple.Vs 13 says the work of each will come to light, for the day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If someone has a better word than purgatory to call this place then God Bless them.

 

[1beleevr]

i,ll bet if you would say something about his preacher, oh boy then he would get upset, but we wont do that.

My pastor is his own man, and can handle himself when it comes to insults! And if he’s like me, they run off him like water off a duck’s back! He is more concerned with defending the Cross, rather than worrying about what others think of him. You get so upset when people don’t accept the pope as the evangelical leader of the Christian world, when what you should be concerned with is the number of lost in the world! Just because we don’t follow the pope’s teaching, doesn’t mean we don’t respect him!

 

[kempo1]

My pastor is his own man, and can handle himself when it comes to insults! And if he’s like me, they run off him like water off a duck’s back! He is more concerned with defending the Cross, rather than worrying about what others think of him. You get so upset when people don’t accept the pope as the evangelical leader of the Christian world, when what you should be concerned with is the number of lost in the world! Just because we don’t follow the pope’s teaching, doesn’t mean we don’t respect him!

The Pope teaches the word of God!! No i can say that me and many do not get upset if you do not recognize the Pope for what his role truly is on earth. Most people who reject the Pope have been taught to reject him. I rather pray for you and the ones like you to come home because we love you. I know i may have upset you with my comment and it wasnt charitable and for that i apologize. One day our Lord will return and reveal all truths to us, that being said i will continue to follow the teachings laid out by Christ and the apostles concerning the church he built.

 

[adrift]

Did Jesus tell us what order we were to be born again? Of the water firs, or of the Spirit?

Jesus did put water first so yes He did tell us what order. He told His Apostles to go and baptize.

And what does it mean to be born of the Spirit?

I answered this already

Quote:
you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you
. That was Pentecost and the Spirit was God. The cross only allowed us to ask for forgiveness. Can you cite a scripture that says all is forgiven? If is was all forgiven, why do we need to repent? What is the point of our lives? What about the Scripture that says Baptism forgives sins. Was Peter wrong when he said that baptism forgives sins?

Jesus does tell people in Matthew 4:17, to repent, for the Kingdom of God is near.Petr in Acts 2:38, did tell the people to repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, i

Repentance is part of the Christian faith. What is being discussed is Baptism forgive sins.

n order to breceive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same promise for us today. I know that I have the Holy Spirit in me, and He is leading me into Spirit and Truth! And for the record, Colossians 1:14 from the King James Version, reads,“In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins.” So, did Paul misspeak? Does the blood of Christ wash away our sins?2Corinthians 5:21, says that Hebecame sin, who knew no sin.

It does not speak to the question. It is your understanding that is causing the problem.

Quote:
“God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet. 3:20–21)

Here is a clarification of what Peter is saying: Baptism saves but only because of Jesus’ Blood Sacrifice.

 

[adrift]

And yet, Peter, who allegedly was the first pope of the catholic church, and supposedly was acting in the stead of Christ, told people to repent and then be baptized(Acts 2:38)

Allegedly is on your part a deliberate dig and not very Christian. There is nothing alleged about it. It is provable by looking into history. Warren H. Carroll a historian has documented it. You have upset others here by your thoughtless rhetoric. You complain about mistreatment yet you blithely mistreat others. I asked you to define holy. Your understanding of the word is deficient.

From Websters

devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity <a holy temple

Holy means to belong to God.
Peter tells us 1 Peter

but, as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in every aspect of your conduct,

16
for it is written, “Be holy because I (am) holy.”

A thought occurred to me and perhaps you can help. Where is God referred to as Holy Father?

 

[1beleevr]

Allegedly is on your part a deliberate dig and not very Christian. There is nothing alleged about it. It is provable by looking into history. Warren H. Carroll a historian has documented it. You have upset others here by your thoughtless rhetoric. You complain about mistreatment yet you blithely mistreat others. I asked you to define holy. Your understanding of the word is deficient.

From Websters

Holy means to belong to God.
Peter tells us 1 Peter

A thought occurred to me and perhaps you can help. Where is God referred to as Holy Father?

First of all, God is referred to as Holy Father all through the Bible! The pope is only referred to as holy father by catholics! And read Colossians 1:14, KJV. And don’t forget to include yourself in being uncharitable and passing off thoughtless rhetoric!

 

[adrift]

First of all, God is referred to as Holy Father all through the Bible! The pope is only referred to as holy father by catholics! And read Colossians 1:14, KJV. And don’t forget to include yourself in being uncharitable and passing off thoughtless rhetoric!

I apologize for doing so. Could you point out what you are referring to that I have been uncharitable.

Would you give me a specific verse for Holy Father. I did a search through Bible Gateway and found nothing.

You have posted this scripture before and I answered it.

Jesus through His sacrifice saves us. Peter says it best Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Baptism save us through the resurrection. It is because Jesus died that we have the means of being saved.

 

[1beleevr]

I apologize for doing so. Could you point out what you are referring to that I have been uncharitable.

Would you give me a specific verse for Holy Father. I did a search through Bible Gateway and found nothing.

You have posted this scripture before and I answered it.

Listen, both of us have been less than charitable during our debates, and I apologize for my sometimes rude behavior! When I say that I do not and cannot call any man holy father, it is out of respect for God! And speaking of holy, if it means belonging to God, then I am holy, as are you. And I use that verse because it speaks(at least in the KJV) of Jesus’s blood redeeming us, and forgiving our sins! And I believe that many Christians revere the KJV! I wil see if I can find a specific reference to God being the Holy Father. You don’t dispute that He is, do you?

 

[adrift]

Listen, both of us have been less than charitable during our debates, and I apologize for my sometimes rude behavior! When I say that I do not and cannot call any man holy father, it is out of respect for God! And speaking of holy, if it means belonging to God, then I am holy, as are you. And I use that verse because it speaks(at least in the KJV) of Jesus’s blood redeeming us, and forgiving our sins! And I believe that many Christians revere the KJV! I wil see if I can find a specific reference to God being the Holy Father. You don’t dispute that He is, do you?

You are right and thanks to you I am trying to be more charitable. You know what I mean when there are some who try you. It isn’t a good excuse to sink to the level of others. I am really not referring to you but others who have lowered my standard. I don’t think you have to call our leader Holy Father. I don’t expect that because I understand why you can’t. We have discussed this before and I don’t think we need to go into again.

That’s right you and I are holy or should strive to be. We belong to God when we do His will. When we don’t well…
Of course Jesus’ Blood redeems us but that doesn’t exclude Baptism forgiving sins.
I find it odd to refer to the Father as Holy. I am not being cute with you either. We call the third person of the Trinity the Holy Spirit but I have never heard anyone call the Father Holy. I just wondered if there was Scripture that didn’t come to my mind. I have searched. That is why I asked. Speaking of the Holy Spirit I note that the Bible I use does not capitalize Holy. :nope:

 

[Edson]

It is an event, a final event that take place outside of heaven. Notice it says “he will suffer loss” and he “will be saved” and it will be “as through fire”. An excellent description of a cleansing fire.
:
That;s not what the word of God says " And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment"
Luke 23

Heaven was not opened until Christ ascended into heaven 40 days after the resurrection.

Eph 4:8"when he ascended on high he led a host of captives"

The thief on the cross went to the abode of the dead with the "spirits in prison ( 1 Peter 3:19)

THis quote simply shows that early christians believed in a place between heaven and hell. This “place” we now call purgatory which means a place of purification

Purgatory is the condition or process of purification or temporary punishment not a place.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

You are right and thanks to you I am trying to be more charitable. You know what I mean when there are some who try you. It isn’t a good excuse to sink to the level of others. I am really not referring to you but others who have lowered my standard. I don’t think you have to call our leader Holy Father. I don’t expect that because I understand why you can’t. We have discussed this before and I don’t think we need to go into again.

That’s right you and I are holy or should strive to be. We belong to God when we do His will. When we don’t well…
Of course Jesus’ Blood redeems us but that doesn’t exclude Baptism forgiving sins.
I find it odd to refer to the Father as Holy. I am not being cute with you either. We call the third person of the Trinity the Holy Spirit but I have never heard anyone call the Father Holy. I just wondered if there was Scripture that didn’t come to my mind. I have searched. That is why I asked. Speaking of the Holy Spirit I note that the Bible I use does not capitalize Holy. :nope:

John 17:11
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

 

[Vile_Servant]

Purgatory is the condition or process of purification or temporary punishment not a place.

Purgatory is most certainly a place.

*"We see St. Michael as we see the angels. He has no body. He comes to get the souls that have finished their purification. It is he who conducts them to Heaven. He is among the Seraphim as Monsignor said. He is the highest angel in Heaven. Our own Guardian Angels come to see us but St. Michael is far more beautiful than they are. As to the Blessed Virgin, we see her in the body. She comes to Purgatory on her feasts and she goes back to Heaven with many souls. While she is with us we do not suffer. St. Michael accompanies her. When he comes alone, we suffer as usual. When I spoke to you of the great and the second Purgatory, it was to try and make you understand that there are different stages in Purgatory. Thus I call that stage of Purgatory great or worst where the most guilty souls are, and where I stayed for two years without being able to give a sign of the torments I was suffering. The year you heard me groaning, when I began to speak to you, I was still in the same place.

In the second Purgatory, which is still Purgatory but very different from the first, one suffers a great deal, but less than in the great place of expiation. Then there is the third stage, which is the Purgatory of desire, where there is no fire. The souls who did not desire Heaven ardently enough, who did not love God sufficiently are there. It is there that I am at this moment. Further, in these three parts of purgatory, there are many degrees of variation. Little by little, as the soul becomes purified, her sufferings are changed."*

• An unpublished manuscript on purgatory

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Purgatory is the condition or process of purification or temporary punishment not a place.

There is no place or condition that we call purgatory where the temporal punishment for sins is purged. That was taken care of on the cross. To say that there is, is to say that Jesus’ magnificent sacrifice was not enough.

Hebrews:11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[Bill_Pick]

There is no place or condition that we call purgatory where the temporal punishment for sins is purged. That was taken care of on the cross. To say that there is, is to say that Jesus’ magnificent sacrifice was not enough.

Hebrews:11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

D-