Purgatory......

[Vile_Servant]

There is no sin that if we repent and ask forgiveness that the Lord will not forgive. The only sin that will not and cannot be forgiven is the sin for which no forgieness is asked.

How many times does one need to repent and ask forgiveness in order to be saved?

 

[Bill_Pick]

Purgatory is very real…

*St Faustina Kowalska, Diary No. 20
(Vision of Purgatory)

"One day I asked the Lord, ‘Lord, who else should I pray for?’ Jesus said that on the following night He would let me know for whom I should always pray for.

The following night, I saw my Guardian Angel who asked me to follow him. In a moment I was in a misty place full of fire in which there was a great crowd of suffering souls. They were praying fervently, but to no avail, for themselves; only we can come to their aid. The flames which were burning them did not touch me at all. My Guardian Angel did not leave me for an instant. I asked these souls what their greatest suffering was. They answered me in one voice that their greatest torment was longing for God. I saw Our Lady visiting the souls in Purgatory. The souls call her ‘The Star of the Sea.’ She brings them refreshment. I wanted to talk with them some more, but my Guardian Angel beckoned me to leave. We went out of the prison of suffering. * which said, My mercy does not want this, but justice demands it. Since that time, I am in closer communion with the suffering souls."

Justice demands that we cannot enter heaven unless we have fully paid our debts. That is why, while still here on earth, let us begin to pay for our debts. When we go to confession, we are asked to say penance, and that’s it. That is not enough. We have to make reparation. It is not enough to pray three Our Fathers and then no more. The goodness of God cannot be satisfied just like that. That’s why the need for us to offer daily our sufferings, offer daily our trials for the poor souls and, especially, for our own souls to shorten our stay in Purgatory."**

Richard will learn about Purgatory if he can get there.

 

[KathleenGee]

There is sin against the Holy Spirit … refusing to believe in Him, His voice to your conscience…

It is parallel to willingly denying Christ. And that is sin.

Jesus also said the road to perdition is wide and easy, but entering into the Kingdom of Christ is difficult and costly, and the kingdom is the Pearl of Great Price.

There was no one person who proclaimed the state of purgatory. It is the working of the Holy Spirit in the Church.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Being washed with the Blood of the Lamb is not only believing in Christ as Lord, but it is tantamount of picking one’s cross and following Him.

The Catholic faith has great value in redemptive suffering…and if we accept all the crosses God gives us every day, and will not to sin, even though we do out of weakness, then we enter heaven.

Being washed with the Blood of the Lamb also reflects the saving action of the Mass…only Christ can please the Father and atone for our sin. At Mass, we are united with Christ and offered with Him to the Father.

We cannot look only at the Holy Spirit working through Scripture although St. Paul himself speaks of the purifying fire in Corinthians…the Gospel of Jesus Christ said that All debts must be paid to the Father…we must also look at the Holy Spirit at work through the Tradition of faith, that is the faith handed down by the Apostles in the establishment and fruits of the Church. Both Scripture and Tradition are intertwined through the working of the Holy Spirit.

All books in the Bible were put together by the Catholic Church. Those selected were those that would work to completely uphold the history and message (Jesus Christ) in salvation history. The Book of Maccabees states it is good to pray for the dead. Jesus Christ descended to the gates of hell to free those who were just and to open the kingdom of heaven for them.

Catholics and Christianity have never operated on the Bible alone. The Church intently chose particular books that were conducive to the universal faith-- Christ died for mankind, including those who lived and died before Him, and those who followed Him in times to come.

The Bible in itself cannot stand alone unless there is a break from the tradition of the Church. People should study the Catechism of the Catholic Church and see how the Church upholds every word in Scripture, and that it works not to take phrases or words out of context or within their own, but for the greater understanding of the Word in its entirety – in the Tradition of Church going back to Christ and His apostles. Changing one word, or adding or deleting another is the work of man and not the Holy Spirit, and can only bring about division and fracture within the Body of Christ.

A+

 

[Vile_Servant]

We cannot earn or in any way merit this gift. It wouldn’t be a gift then would it?

It is a gift, but with an important caveat:
“My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.” (John 15:12)

How do you prove this love?
"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ (Matthew 25:40)

He who loves God and his neighbor with his whole heart, not only by fair words, but also by concrete action, will be saved. He who does not, will not be saved.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Let us all take up our cross and follow Him, to obey the will of our Father in heaven, and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Let us learn from Him who is meek and humble of heart. Let us fight the good fight, run the good race to the finish, so that we may merit to win the crown of glory in heaven.

 

[Edson]

Edson, I don’t think I said that you don’t have to have faith. Rom.6: 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In order for a gift to be a gift it needs to be accepted. We accept this gift through faith.
Jn.3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
When we accept this gift, Halleluia, our sins are forgiven and we are justified before a holy God, but it doesn’t end there.
Rom.10: 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The way we make this confession of faith is through baptism.
Rom.6:3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

You are right you did not say that you did not have to have faith. I asked if Jesus did it all. Your answer was (absolutely) what does the all indicate? Isn’t all everything? Not to me. Again let me clarify. Jesus made it possible for me and you to go to heaven. It is up do us to decide whether we want to or don’t. So there is a condition that we must do in order to be saved. It’s called saving faith. To accept and to believe is an action and thus a work. Maybe not as intense as digging ditches but still an action that we have to do. Also we have to maintain that saving faith. No matter what, I believe we have to live a Christian life. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Thanks I always enjoy a fruitful dialogue. God Bless.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

How many times does one need to repent and ask forgiveness in order to be saved?

Matt.18:21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

It’s the same way with God.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

You are right you did not say that you did not have to have faith. I asked if Jesus did it all. Your answer was (absolutely) what does the all indicate? Isn’t all everything? Not to me. Again let me clarify. Jesus made it possible for me and you to go to heaven. It is up do us to decide whether we want to or don’t. So there is a condition that we must do in order to be saved. It’s called saving faith. To accept and to believe is an action and thus a work. Maybe not as intense as digging ditches but still an action that we have to do. Also we have to maintain that saving faith. No matter what, I believe we have to live a Christian life. "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Thanks I always enjoy a fruitful dialogue. God Bless.

I think you pretty much have it. The acceptance of the gift of eternal life is done through faith in what He did and I think that this is where we have to be very careful. I see people on this thread and others saying that we are saved via a church or by our good works or by baptism. These things are all a result of our acceptance of the saving sacrifice of Jesus If you think you are saved by any of these you are on the broad road to perdition.

 

[1beleevr]

D-

A D- for Billy Pick? I think Richard’s post deserves a better grade than that; actually an A!

 

[1beleevr]

A+

Maybe a C+!

 

[1beleevr]

You are right and thanks to you I am trying to be more charitable. You know what I mean when there are some who try you. It isn’t a good excuse to sink to the level of others. I am really not referring to you but others who have lowered my standard. I don’t think you have to call our leader Holy Father. I don’t expect that because I understand why you can’t. We have discussed this before and I don’t think we need to go into again.

That’s right you and I are holy or should strive to be. We belong to God when we do His will. When we don’t well…
Of course Jesus’ Blood redeems us but that doesn’t exclude Baptism forgiving sins.
I find it odd to refer to the Father as Holy. I am not being cute with you either. We call the third person of the Trinity the Holy Spirit but I have never heard anyone call the Father Holy. I just wondered if there was Scripture that didn’t come to my mind. I have searched. That is why I asked. Speaking of the Holy Spirit I note that the Bible I use does not capitalize Holy. :nope:

Thank you! It is hard to pick up that cross every day and carry it, but my Saviour did, so I have to make that effort! Sometimes, I step on toes, and ruffle feathers with my beliefs, but I don’t believe that I intentionally demean anyone’s faith! And while I agree that baptism is a vital component of the salvation plan, I don’t believe that it is the most important part. Faith(Hebrews 11:6) is paramount, because we need it to be able to accept the grace freely given by God! My reasons for not calling the pope holy father, were not taught to me, as another posted suggested. Before I even knew what the catholic church was, I was raised to call God Holy Father. Therefore to call ANYONE else Holy Father, in my understanding would be blasphemous. You and I do not see eye-to-eye on several things, but I know that we both love the Lord, and strive to follow His Commandments, in spite of our humaness! And I thank Richard Kastner for finding that scripture about Holy Father in John 17:11. God bless you, my friend, and may all your burdens be light, and your yoke easy!

 

[Edson]

You know I don’t know it all and I am constantly trying to read the Bible and study Church history along with debates about every topic imaginable that Catholic and Protestant differ on. Kind of reminds me of that cartoon Spy vs. Spy where each spy tries to outwit and/or outsmart each other. In the end when one stands before judgment it will be between that person and God the Almighty.

 

[guanophore]

So, I am fine, because I believe in Jesus with all my heart, soul, and mind, and am not a catholic!

If you think it is so fine not to be Catholic, why are you on a Catholic forum.

 

[1beleevr]

If you think it is so fine not to be Catholic, why are you on a Catholic forum.

Why not; what better way to find out what catholics really believe! And why is this called non-catholic forum, when there are so many catholics in it?

 

[guanophore]

Why did Jesus come into this world?

To save sinners.

Why would He do that if all we had to do was be baptised?

Because baptism is the manner in which He desired for us to be joined to Him in His death and resurrection.

He sanctified the waters of baptism by entering them, and joining the HS to them. When we are washed in the bath of regeneration, we are born again, and sealed with the promised HS.

 

[guanophore]

Mark16:16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jn.3:5 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Ok, these two vs. are saying basically the same thing. That we must believe and be baptised. The first thing we need to do is believe in Jesus Christ and what He did on the cross to save us from our sins. When we do that we are justified before God and our sins are forgiven because of what Crist has done, however it doesn’t end there. We need to announce our faith in Christ to the world. Check out Rom.10 9&10

Richard, there is nothing in scripture that indicates baptism is an opportunity to “annouce our faith to the world”. One the contrary, this is a modern evangelical innovation. In the early church, baptisms were done in private with only the faithful present, since baptisms were a favorite chance for the Romans to find and kill the Christians.

The reason that pouring was adopted by the early church is that they had to hide in catacombs, caves, and remote regions where there was little water to prevent everyone from being killed who attended the baptism.

Rom.10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Our baptism is an outward sign of our confession of faith in the shed blood of Jesus to save us.

It is that, but it is also a spiritual joining with Him in His death and resurrection. In it, we are washed in His blood, and clothed in righteousness.

  If our sins are forgiven by the mere act of being baptised, (salvation by works) then why did Jesus even bother to come down to this sinful planet. Why when He prayed three times in the garden of Getsemine to "let this cup pass from me" did the answer apparently come back to Him from His loving Father that there was no other way.

Jesus can save whoever He wants, however He likes. He commanded us to be washed in the waters of Regeneration.

 

[guanophore]

My goodness I don’t know how many ways I can post the same thing so that you get it. Rev.1: 5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and **washed us from our sins in his own blood, **

If you take the emboldened part of Rev.1:5 above you get:** Jesus Christ washed us from our sins in his own blood. **This is how we are cleansed from our sins, not through baptism. That is not to say that baptism is not important, it is because it is our proclamation to the world that we have been washed in the blood of the Lamb.

Romans 10: 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It won’t matter, Richard, how many times you post it. We are obligated to reject this as heresy. The Apostles taught that baptism is the manner by which His blood is applied to us for our salvation. The confession with the mouth is the profession of faith that is made at baptism. This is how it has been for 2000 years. Modern American Evangelicals have attempted to separate the spiritual aspects of baptism from the physical. The Apostles did not do this.

 

[1beleevr]

To save sinners.

Because baptism is the manner in which He desired for us to be joined to Him in His death and resurrection.

He sanctified the waters of baptism by entering them, and joining the HS to them. When we are washed in the bath of regeneration, we are born again, and sealed with the promised HS.

What is the scripture which tels us to be bathed in the waters of regeneration? And I believe that Jesus was fully submerged, what do you believe?

 

[guanophore]

Romans 10: 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Are you seriously contending that this is not for the gentile. So when Paul says “9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”

No. The Romans were Gentiles. What he is saying is that the letter was written to BELIEVERS! He is giving them Apostolic instruction on the meaning of the baptism they received.

He is talking to Romans only and these Romans are the only ones that are saved by this confession of faith. Everyone else is saved by getting themseves baptised?

The two are not separated Richard, or at least, were not by the Apostles. No one “gets themselves baptized”. One presents oneself to the Church and RECEIVES baptism, the free gift of salvation from God.

This is what Paul did, when Ananias told him “And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord’” (Acts 22:12-16).

Baptism is something that we participate in, by obedience, but it is the HS that acts upon the heart of a person, providing the “circumcision made without hands”.

 Also if these Romans are all baptised why is Paul telling them the method of salvation?

He wants them to have a clear understanding of what occurred when they were baptized, and how they should act upon it now.

Wouldn’t that have already been taken care of?

At the time of Paul’s writing, no Apostolic Teaching had been given to the Romans. All they had were believers who had been in Palestine at Pentecost and returned after they were baptized for the remission of their sins.

**

Another thing, the whole bible is written to me and to you. Say this letter to the Romans was written to just the Romans. Why include it in the bible at all? If it has no relevance to us why would God include it?**

The Bible was never intended to be separated from the Sacred Tradition that produced it.

Richard_Kastner:

. We are saved by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ period. If you think anything else, you need to come to Him and He will change you.

Indeed, we are. Baptism is the manner in which the shed blood is applied to the individual.

Jn. 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He who believes and is baptised will be saved…

 

[guanophore]

When Jesus died on the cross original was gone, no more, done away with , finished,nada,history.

This is one of the most interesting fantasies I have ever read on CAF. I learn something new every day. I am continually amazed at the strange ideas that emerge when people depart from Apostolic Teaching. :bigyikes: