Purgatory

[On_my_way]

E.E.N.S.:

I am sorry you hold that position Sandusky…truly I am.
I don’t know how you can say “all sin is mortal sin” when the Bible says “not all sin is mortal.” Why do you continue to twist Sacred Scripture?

Because sandusky wants God to revolve around him and not the other way around. Also he only looks at parts of Scripture that will only help his argument. If all protestant churchs wrote their own Bible it would probably only have 2 pages.

 

[bones_IV]

Verse 22 contin…
Consider though what St. John Chrysostom says “In our case it was Christ, not Moses, who sprinkled us with blood, through the words he spoke: ‘This is the blood of the new covenant for the forgiveness of sins.’ By these words, not by hyssop smeared by blood, did he sprinkly all. Previously, people’s bodies were cleansed externally, because it was a matter of physical purification; whereas now, since the cleansing is spiritual, it penetrates the soul and purifies it, not by mere sprinkling but as it where by a fount which wells up in our souls” (Hom. on Heb, 16). The shedding of Christ’s blood is in some way renewed when any sacrament is being administered, particularly so at the eucharistic consecration when the priests repeats the words of consecration “this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant, it will shed for you and for all so that sins may be forgiven”. What I have said in these two posts here on verse 22 of chapter 9 in Paul’s letter to the Hebrews, does it in any way disprove the existence of purgatory. It only stregthens the Church’s teaching on purgatory.

 

[Vincent1560]

On my way:

Because sandusky wants God to revolve around him and not the other way around. Also he only looks at parts of Scripture that will only help his argument. If all protestant churchs wrote their own Bible it would probably only have 2 pages.

I don’t think that is a fair judgment of his motives. People on both sides of a debate can be coming from a sincere and pious position. And I don’t think that is a fair assessment of Protestant churches any more than it would be if Protestants made it of Catholics. Speaking as an evangelical, I can assure you that (exempting liberal sects like the ones that allow homosexuality and don’t believe in the inerrancy of Scripture) Protestants care very much about reading and understanding the entire bible because it contains God’s will for us. A common acronymn Protestants use is Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. The bible is the ultimate authority for us and its careful study and interpretation or a cornerstone of our faith. I challenge you to walk into any conservative/evangelical church and find a pastor who wishes to only read or teach parts of the bible. There may be some, but not many. Your attitude does not inspire cooperation and mutual respect which are the necessary foundation of any kind of permanent understanding between Catholics and Protestants. We all love God.

 

[On_my_way]

sandusky:

Venial and mortal sin are peculiar to the RCC.

God says that all sin is mortal sin (Rom 6:23).

So all sins are the same. I.E. one sin, one penalty. Then why in Leviticus 20:1-27 are there different penalties. Some sins require death as a penalty, while others will be cut of from their families as a penalty. Sounds to me that there are to types of sins and two types of penalties.

“for the wages of sin is death,” is not refering to our human life, but to our eternal life. If we sin against God we will not die physically, but spiritually. Adam and Eve sinned and was not put to death, but what was the penalty for thier sins? Adam(man) was to do laborous work. Eve(woman) was to suffer intense pain from child birth. The serpent was to crawl on it’s belly. Different penalties for their different sins.

Mortal and venial sins are not made by the Catholic Church, it is in Scripture. If you read it you will see that it is in black and white.

 

[On_my_way]

Vincent1560. You follow Scripture right. Tell me then, is the Body and Blood symbolic or the Real Presence? Please use Scripture to defend you statement. Sorry guys if we are off the subject.

 

[On_my_way]

Vincent1560:

I don’t think that is a fair judgment of his motives. People on both sides of a debate can be coming from a sincere and pious position. And I don’t think that is a fair assessment of Protestant churches any more than it would be if Protestants made it of Catholics. Speaking as an evangelical, I can assure you that (exempting liberal sects like the ones that allow homosexuality and don’t believe in the inerrancy of Scripture) Protestants care very much about reading and understanding the entire bible because it contains God’s will for us. A common acronymn Protestants use is Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. The bible is the ultimate authority for us and its careful study and interpretation or a cornerstone of our faith. I challenge you to walk into any conservative/evangelical church and find a pastor who wishes to only read or teach parts of the bible. There may be some, but not many. Your attitude does not inspire cooperation and mutual respect which are the necessary foundation of any kind of permanent understanding between Catholics and Protestants. We all love God.

You are right. Not charitable at all. I apologize. Posted out of frustration and not reason.

 

[kellyb32]

Vincent1560:

I am not familiar with 2nd Maccabees

catholic.org/phpframedirect/out.php?url=http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/index.htm

This is an online Catholic bible, hope this helps!

God bless!

 

[Tigerhawk]

sandusky:

Surely you read in the verses preceding v15 that it is the WORKS that are tested? Do you read that?

*He…will be saved…but only *AS one fleeing through fire. The key word is AS. That indicates a figure of speech known as a simile, which can also be indicated by the use of the word LIKE. So His works are burned, and because they are burned and he is saved it is AS through fire. He does not go through fire, only the works do.

I guess I needed to quote the entire verse.

1 Corinthians 3:15 “If a man’s building burns, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one fleeing through fire.”

The picture being painted here is clear. A man is in his building (his works) and it is ablaze, he can escape (through the mercy of Christ) but “he will suffer loss…as one fleeing through fire.”

I agree with you that it is the man’s works that are burned up, but to say that the man does not pass through the fire in which his works are being burned up and suffer loss is a misinterpretation of this verse.

sandusky:

It is because I love Christ so much for what He has done for me, that I would never do anything that would intentionally cause Him pain, or bring shame upon Him. He is more important to me than anything. That is why I avoid sin.

Also, I have never said that there is no consequence for sin in a believer’s life. There is always consequence, chastisement, discipline, done from God’s love.

However, there is no longer the fear of punishment. Christ paid that in full on the Cross.

Must we love God? I thought faith alone is what is required. And if we are not required to love God, then why should one not sin?

I looked up the definitions of a couple of words you draw distinctions between.

Chastise - To punish, usually by beating.
Discipline - Punishment intended to correct or train.

If we do not have to fear punishment then we shouldn’t have to fear being chastized or disciplined either. Should we?

 

[kellyb32]

Is this a type of purgatory from the OT (like Eve and the Ark of the Covenant is a type of Mary)?

Esther 2:12 Each girl went in turn to visit King Ahasuerus after the twelve months’ preparation decreed for the women. Of this period of beautifying treatment, six months were spent with oil of myrrh, and the other six months with perfumes and cosmetics.

As a former prostestant, I recall learning about us needing preparation as the Bride of Christ like Esther needed before she became queen. We needed to be cleansed to make us without spot or blemish so we can meet Christ face to face.

They stopped at earthly preparation but lingering questions still stayed in my mind about what if I deliberately sinned and didn’t repent or even feel remorse over the sin then died…what would become of that stain or wrinkle on my soul? Would it magically disappear or would I still have to pay some kind of reparation? When does the process of sanctification finally end in the protestant theology, at the moment of death, or afterwards? I got a variety of different answers from different pastors. I didn’t like the “I believe this…” line because there was no unity in the different denominations. I liked the Catholic way because it simply makes sense and has been believed even before Christ came to the earth.

 

[Hunho]

To paraphrase the opening tag-line of the Paul Newman movie *The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean *“If there isn’t a Purgatory, there ought to be.” Read C.S. Lewis’s Letters to Malcom: Chiefly About Prayer for what is probably the simplest, clearest and (at least, for me) most convincing argument for the existance and purpose of Purgatory.

 

[Vincent1560]

On my way:

You are right. Not charitable at all. I apologize. Posted out of frustration and not reason.

Hey no problem. I have just had experience from the other end that leads me to challenge Catholics and Protestants I know to try and reach the greatest degree of possible reconcilliation. At my church, leaders have on occasion been uncharitable to Catholics and I have seen this turn Catholics off to dialogue.(I also have as a result been deeply suspicious of Catholism for a while) In all other respects these leaders are Godly people who I look up to and admire, and one of them was infact responsible for me coming to know Christ, and has been largely responsible for my spiritual growth and dedication to God. Thus I try when I can to respectfully urge fellow evangelicals to recognize the sincerity of Catholics and the fact that they love God and believe in his Son. And I know there are people on your side of the aisle doing the same thing and I just like to encourage that attitude. I admire the humility of your previous post, it is more than I have shown on many occasions.

God Bless You!

 

[Churchmouse]

bones_IV:

Many protestants tell me there is no purgatory. Protestant brethren, here’s something for you to chew on. Was anyone prior to the time of Christ, allowed to enter the Jewish temple unclean?

The answer is no.
No one, not even if you were slightly defiled, could enter one step into the temple, not even the outer region. With this in mind, imagine how much more the case in heaven, in which the saints and angels are in the presence of God.

Purgatory exists, because of one’s attachment to sin. Think about it.

I don’t get it. How does nothing unclean entering the Temple prove the existence of a purgatory? I don’t see how one implies the other.

Peace,
CM

 

[Mystophilus]

sandusky:

With respect to His dealings with the wicked, I don’t assume anything; I know His intention. It is to destroy them. The window is His revelation, and with that, He says that we have His mind.

??What window are you talking about??

Of what are you skeptical? That God will punish the wicked? That God exists? That we can know any intention of God? That God has revealed anything?

The fourth, on the basis that “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Is 55:9).

 

[bones_IV]

Churchmouse:

I don’t get it. How does nothing unclean entering the Temple prove the existence of a purgatory? I don’t see how one implies the other.

Peace,
CM

When you die, the effects of sin are still there. Therefore, the soul must be purified. God bless!

 

[sandusky]

??What window are you talking about??

Scripture, and the indwelling and instruction of the Spirit within the true believer (1 Cor 2:6-16)

Mystophilus:

The fourth, on the basis that “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Is 55:9).

So you don’t believe that God has revealed anything, and you use Scripture to illustrate that God has not revealed anything, but in so doing, you have proven that He has revealed one thing, and that is that He has not revealed anything.

Perhaps He has revealed more than anything; perhaps He has revealed who He is, and who we are, and how we need a savior, and how He has saved those He has chosen to save.

Isn’t that something!

 

[sandusky]

Churchmouse:

I don’t get it. How does nothing unclean entering the Temple prove the existence of a purgatory? I don’t see how one implies the other.

Peace,
CM

Ditto

 

[bones_IV]

sandusky:

Scripture, and the indwelling and instruction of the Spirit within the true believer (1 Cor 2:6-16)

So you don’t believe that God has revealed anything, and you use Scripture to illustrate that God has not revealed anything, but in so doing, you have proven that He has revealed one thing, and that is that He has not revealed anything.

Perhaps He has revealed more than anything; perhaps He has revealed who He is, and who we are, and how we need a savior, and how He has saved those He has chosen to save.

Isn’t that something!

I Cor 2:6-16

6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a scret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for glorification. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this; for they had, they would not have cricified the Lord of Glory. 9 But as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor the heart of man concieved, what God has prepared for those who love him,” 10 God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything even the depths of God. 11 For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have recieved not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who posses the Spirit. 14 The unspiritual man does not recieve the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[bones_IV]

Divine wisdom is what this passage in 1 Chor 2:6-16 is about.
verses 6-8
Wisdom is completely foriegn to this world, this age, and its rulers, that is, those who are responsible of the evil in the world: there is a reference here both to those who directly caused our Lord’s (the Sandhedrin, Herod, Pilate: cf. v. 8), and to the devil and the fallen angels, as can be seen from similar New Testament references (cr. Lk 4:6; Jn 12:31; Eph 2:2). The Apostle is actually saying that the Gospel is not contrary to reason; for the wisdom the Gospel has is divine wisdom. The wisdom St. Paul spreads to those Christians who are well grounded in the faith. The mature Christians are called to gain full knowledge of Christ the Son of God.
The “Secret and hidden”: refers to God’s plan of salvation. God’s plan is not meant to be fully understood while we are in our mortal stage but will fully grasp it when we get into heaven. This secret and hidden wisdom can know by means of Revelation (cf. Lk 8:10; Col 1:26), which we are given in Christ (cf. Rom 16:35-36; Eph 1:8-10; 3:3-7; Col 1:26-27).
Verse 9 are in reference to the gifts that God has ready for us for all eternity for those who trully love him. St. Clement of Rome, the successor to Peter says in the First Letter to the Corinthians says “How blessed, how marvellous, are the gifts of God. Some of them, indeed, already lie within our comprehension-- the life that knows no death, the shining splendour of righteousness, truth in freedom, trusting, the holiness of chastity. But what of the things that God has prepared for those who hope in him? Only the Creator and Father of eternity knows them. Let us strive earnestly to be counted amoung those who wait patiently in order to earn a share in his promised gifts.” St. Pius V catechism says this “with this truth, the minds of the faithful should be deeply impressed–that the happiness of the saints is full to overflowing of all those pleasures which can be enjoyed or even desired in this life, whether they have to do with the powers of the mind or of the perfection of the body; although this must be in a manner more exalted than, to use te Apostle’s words, eye has seen, ear heard, or the heart of man concieved” (I, 13, 12).

 

[bones_IV]

I Chor 2:6-16 contin…
10-12 “God has revealed to us through the Spirit”: mean the third person of the Blessed Trinity, “which is from God” (v. 12) and knows the very depths of God (vv. 10-11). This is obviously in reference to the divinty of the Holy Spirit; this means having an intimate relationship with him. Matthew in 11:25 tells us that “the Holy Spirit knows the depths of God because by nature he is God, equal to the Father and the Son.” St. Pius V catechism says similarly “The Holy Spirit is equally God with the Father and the Son, equally omnipotent and eternal, infinitely perfect, the supreme good, infinitely wise, and of the same nature as the Father and Son…]. Scripture also attributes to him the power to sanctify, to vivify, to search the depths of God, to speak through the Prophets, and to be present in all places-- all of which can be attributed to God alone”(I,9,4). Even the Apostles had to open their minds to the Holy Spirit, because Jesus promised them he would send them the paraclete (Jn 16:13). On Pentecost the Holy Spirit opened the minds of the Apostles and allowed them to understand the truth revealed by Jesus Christ. The same Holy Spirit acted in Paul and had the same knowledge of Revelation as the other Apostles (cf. Gal 2:1-10) The same Holy Spirit that guides the Catholic Church and has for two thousand years. Leo XIII says in Divinum illud munus “The Holy Spirit, who is the spirit of truth, because he proceeds from the Father, eternal Truth, and the Son, substantial truth, recieves from each of them, along with his essence, all truth, which he then communicates to the Church, helping never to err” (7).

 

[bones_IV]

I Chor 2:6-16 contin…
Verse 13 talks about how important it is to take great care in the terminology used: “The Church, with the long labour of centuries and not without the help of the Holy Spirit, has established a rule of language and confirmed it with the authority of the Councils. This rule, which as more than once been the watchword adn banner of orthodox faith, must be religiously preserved, and let no one presume to change it at his own pleasure or under the pretext of new science” (Paul VI, Mysterium fidei, 3). The deposit of the faith must be expressed accurately too. “You have recieved gold,” St. Vincent of Lerins comments, “let you therefore give gold. I do not want you to give one thing instead of another. I do not want you to be shameless and deceptive that you give me lead or bronze in place of gold; I do not want something that looks like gold: I want pure gold” (Commonitorium, 22).
Verses 14-16 refer to people who use the wisdom that is not of Christ and are intelligable only in this world. The spiritual man is one reborn by the grace of God; this in turn allows him to perform acts of supernatural value-- acts of faith, hope and charity. A person who is in a state of grace is able to obtain those gifts, because he carries with him the Spirit in his soul in grace, and he has Christ’s mind and attitude. St. Escriva says, “There are only two possible ways of living on this earth: we live a supernatural life, or we live an animal life. And you and I can only live a supernatural life, the life of God” (Friends of God, 200). St. John Chrysostom describes quite graphically the difference between a spiritual man and an unspiritual man. He says “He who has sight sees everything, including the person who has no sight; but the sightless person cannot see the things of the person who has sight. We Christians know what are own situation is, and we also know the situation of unbelievers; the unbelievers, however do not understand ours. Like them we know-- and we better than they do-- the nature of things persent; unbelievers do not know the sublimity of things to come, whereas we already see what will some day become of the world, adn what sinners wil suffer, and the righteous enjoy” (Hom. on I Chor, 7 ad loc).