Purgatory

[sandusky]

On my way:

Sandusky has anyone on these forums called you ignorant? Then what gives you the right to call uther ignorant? Sounds to me like you think that you are better than any of us Catholics.

Sorry. In re-reading the end of my post, I meant that he is ignorant of the people quoted in the link. Perhaps “have no knowledge of them” would have been a better way to put it.

Thank you for pointing out to me, On my way.

Forgive me Uther. I did not mean that you are ignorant.

 

[E.E.N.S]

sandusky:

Another problem with your interpretation, and correct me if I am wrong, but Catholics say that purgatory is not punishment, or forgiveness, but cleansing.

Jesus is clearly talking about forgiveness in Mt 12, so even if purgatory were true, He cannot be talking about purgatory, because purgatory is a cleansing, not forgiveness.

Thank you for giving me the chance to clarify - I am taking this straight from the Catechism:

1031 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

 

[CanoeCamper55]

The early Christians (before 150 AD) personally knew the apostles or their immmediate disciples and believed in prayers for the dead in Purgatory. So, I would rather go with the beliefs of those early Christians, many of who were killed for their faith in Jesus Christ, than with the views of a few protestants 1500 years later who were angry at some abuses of indulgences by a few Church leaders. Regardless of today’s various “interpretations”, who in history would you rather agree with?

 

[E.E.N.S]

CanoeCamper55:

The early Christians (before 150 AD) personally knew the apostles or their immmediate disciples and believed in prayers for the dead in Purgatory. So, I would rather go with the beliefs of those early Christians, many of who were killed for their faith in Jesus Christ, than with the views of a few protestants 1500 years later who were angry at some abuses of indulgences by a few Church leaders. Regardless of today’s various “interpretations”, who in history would you rather agree with?

I choose to listen to the interpretation of Christ’s Church (though there are those who would contend that the Catholic Church is not the True Church.)

 

[CanoeCamper55]

I agree with you, EENS! I choose to be a member of the only Church that Jesus founded, the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church defends the teachings of Jesus Christ, and one of those teachings is to pray for the dead in Purgatory. We (Catholics) have prayed for our dead loved ones for 2,000 years and continue to do so at every Mass every day during the Prayers of the Faithful. By the way, “Prayers of the Faithful” is such an appropriate term. God bless!

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

Not in the least.

Why is it that you always answer without really answering? I’ve asked you to support your parallel, but you continue with the same buzzwords, “Either you see it or you don’t.” That doesn’t prove anything other then you build “parallels.” Nothing more and nothing less. We may as well allow the Mormons and JWs to do the same. Make it a free-for-all.

Prove a parallel? You either see it or you don’t - you obviously don’t. A for providing anything to debate - I have provided plenty - far more than you have provided anyway.

You have provided verses without exegesis and parallels without support. As evidenced below, you now provide some early writings which you assume, once again, lends credence to a purgatory and you do this without explaining why you would believe it implies purgatory. Furthermore, you call them ECF’s (early church fathers). Hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but these writings aren’t ECFs, but simply early writings. Again, what is it that you are debating with?

One last thing to fulfill a direct request of yours (ECF before Clement or Origen):

“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just.” Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).

“Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd…He taught me…faithful writings…These words, I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius.” *Inscription of Abercius (A.D. 190). *

“Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? Who died miserably with disease…But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy’s navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment.” *The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias, 2:3-4 (A.D. 202). *

Once again, you post some citations that are found in a million Catholic apologetic sites all over the internet, this one included. Please, by all means, tell me how these support purgatory.

(((Mark 6:11)))

1 Peter 3:15

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

Then what are your thoughts, CM, on this passage in Matt 12:32
"And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come." What do you think that Jesus is refering to by “the world to come?”

It’s parallel verse in Mark 3:29 states “hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.” This shows the essence of what Christ is saying in Matthew 12:32. It is used as an idiom to denote that blasphemy towards the Holy Spirit will NEVER be forgiven. If Christ truly was implying that there is forgiveness in the afterlife, Mark’s omission is inexcusable, but considering that it was meant to show that there is no forgiveness for this sin ever, Mark puts it in its proper perspective. He certainly did “not” say that any sin unpardoned here would be pardoned hereafter. If one is going to read in any implications to purgatory into this verse, one can easily read in that forgiveness can happen regardless of a purgatory as well. Why would you assume that the verse implies a “purgatory”?

Peace,
CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

It’s parallel verse in Mark 3:29 states “hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.” This shows the essence of what Christ is saying in Matthew 12:32. It is used as an idiom to denote that blasphemy towards the Holy Spirit will NEVER be forgiven. If Christ truly was implying that there is forgiveness in the afterlife, Mark’s omission is inexcusable, but considering that it was meant to show that there is no forgiveness for this sin ever, Mark puts it in its proper perspective. He certainly did “not” say that any sin unpardoned here would be pardoned hereafter. If one is going to read in any implications to purgatory into this verse, one can easily read in that forgiveness can happen regardless of a purgatory as well. Why would you assume that the verse implies a “purgatory”?

Peace,
CM

I agree with you that the main point of this verse is pointing out that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. No argument there. I was simply asking you what you though Jesus meant by giving to different time frames (or worlds if you may) of forgiveness.

 

[Churchmouse]

uther:

Would the faith of the early Christians qualify as evidence? Karl Keating, in “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” says,
“…the graffiti in the catacombs, where the earliest Christians, during the persecutions of the first three centuries, recorded prayers for the dead.” (p. 192)

Keating is wrong. He assumes that that these prayers are for their alleviation from purgatory. That is far from the case. These prayers are used in the context of “refrigerium.” Roman Catholic medieval historian Jacques Le Goff has a whole section on the “refrigerium” in his book The Birth of Purgatory and refutes that thought that these prayers were purgatorial in nature. When the early Christians prayed for the dead it was understood that they were in heaven, but they prayed that their souls would be “refreshed” as when they first arrived there. Whether it was a viable belief is irrelevant, but only that they did so. Maybe it did more for those who lost their loved ones then it did for those already in heaven.

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

I agree with you that the main point of this verse is pointing out that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. No argument there. I was simply asking you what you though Jesus meant by giving to different time frames (or worlds if you may) of forgiveness.

But if you’ve noticed, purgatory must be read into the verse to find any application whatsoever.

Peace,
CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

Keating is wrong.These prayers are used in the context of “refrigerium.”

Is that an infallible statement?

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

But if you’ve noticed, purgatory must be read into the verse to find any application whatsoever.

Peace,
CM

Not true. To find the word or doctrine of “purgatory” sure, but I remember before I ever heard of purgatory, I asked myself "what did Jesus mean by “world to come?”

 

[Churchmouse]

sandusky:

You are deceitful; right off the bat you speak in half-truths. The only one of the people listed that talks about 1 Cor 3:15 is MacArthur, and if you would take off the Rome-colored glass, you would read that he is speaking figuratively. I know John, and he does not believe in purgatory. His is critical of Catholic theology, and Catholicism as a system in general; as a matter of fact, I hear that Karl Keating has attacked him in his latest newsletter for his statements about JPII and the Church.

What This Rock has done, is what the Jehovah’s Witnesses do in The Watchtower Magazine. They quote mainstream Christians, out of context, to support their unsupportable views. It is trickery, pure and simple, and shows contempt for their gullible readership.

Unfortunately for you, I know about each of those quoted.

C.S. Lewis was a teacher of Medieval Literature; he was not a theologian, by his own admission. He was a great thinker, and writer in a genre called “popular theology,” but he was not a theologian, and notice as you read his statements that he is musing. He offers no support for his statements. Again, he was not a theologian.

Moreland’s quote is too short, and I would bet, that if read in context, it would not be the support that you suppose it is.

J. Vernon McGee is clearly not talking about purgatory, but the bema judgment, something you probably know nothing about. He did not believe in purgatory, but rather believed in the total, finished, accomplished work of Christ on the Cross. He had a great love for Christ, and rejected purgatory out of hand.

Clark Pinnock is quoted from a book called Four Views on Hell. I don’t know which of the four views this is that is quoted, however, I would bet my last dollar that it is the view that most closely aligns with the RCC. Typical Watchtower journalism.

In addition, Pinnock is an extremely liberal theologian who espouses inclusivism, and he is one of the major voices in a group of theologians espousing what they call “open theism.” They deny the sovereignty of God, and maintain that God does not have an exhaustive knowledge of the future, and who knows what else, I haven’t had much time to devote to reading him. He is clearly someone I would never quote in support of anything.

As Romes, Pinnock’s views are dangerous as far as I am concerned.

I am certain, that for the most part you are ignorant of what I have said, so I really don’t blame you. The everyday protestant who comes to this forum, “seeking the truth,” will probably be persuaded by the quotations on that link.

I am disgusted at the dishonesty the publication displays. Thanks, you validate my understanding of the dangers of encountered here.

I am especially amazed that one would dare to allude to J. Vernon McGee as a purgatory believer. I guess it is used because McGee is dead and isn’t in a position to rebuke whoever wrote the article Good job of setting that crooked path straight, Sandusky.

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

Not true. To find the word or doctrine of “purgatory” sure, but I remember before I ever heard of purgatory, I asked myself "what did Jesus mean by “world to come?”

Well, what did you find out about the “world to come” and how did it impact your purgatorial beliefs? I hope I’m not going to be met with another “Either you see it or you don’t.”

Peace,
CM

CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

Well, what did you find out about the “world to come” and how did it impact your purgatorial beliefs? I hope I’m not going to be met with another “Either you see it or you don’t.”

Peace,
CM

CM

I didn’t get any satisfactory answer until I started looking into Catholicism…funny thing was that I read about purgatory and immediately dismissed it (then I remembered that I questioned “world to come”) and studied with a (more) open mind - and sure enough, I ended up finding that the Catholic Church made very much sense in these difficult areas (though that is not why I converted, but it did help.)

I hope that gives you some insight to my mind, lol.

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

Is that an infallible statement?

Don’t know what this has to do with the subject, but that’s history, that’s real. Do “infallible” statements change history?

Peace,
CM

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

I didn’t get any satisfactory answer until I started looking into Catholicism…funny thing was that I read about purgatory and immediately dismissed it (then I remembered that I questioned “world to come”) and studied with a (more) open mind - and sure enough, I ended up finding that the Catholic Church made very much sense in these difficult areas (though that is not why I converted, but it did help.)

I hope that gives you some insight to my mind, lol.

You’re still not answering my question. What did you learn about the “world to come” and how did this factor into your belief in a purgatory?

CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

Don’t know what this has to do with the subject, but that’s history, that’s real. Do “infallible” statements change history?

Peace,
CM

You said that Karl Keating was wrong, and I asked if that was an infallible statement.

 

[Churchmouse]

E.E.N.S.:

You said that Karl Keating was wrong, and I asked if that was an infallible statement.

No, Keating is wrong by virtue of his misapplication. He uses this as if to imply that “praying for the dead”, which some in the early church did, was by nature “purgatorial.” Yet, it wasn’t purgatorial in the least. It was for a refreshing of those understood to be in heaven and not for the alleviance of the soul in an alleged purgatory.

Peace,
CM

 

[E.E.N.S]

Churchmouse:

You’re still not answering my question. What did you learn about the “world to come” and how did this factor into your belief in a purgatory?

CM

When I had looked into it (the world to come), I found that many referenced this as a possible point to a purgatorial state were impurities and lesser offenses were “purged.”

To be brief, it made sense to me, but regardless it didn’t play much of a part to my conversion really.